OT: Jussie Smollett

@"pumpf" said:

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: Seems odd how the agencies reporting drops down pretty significantly during obama's terms in contrast to when it's a Republican.....do the crimes not take place in those areas when certain parties are in control or do those areas just not push their numbers up to the FBI when it makes certain parties look bad?

Or is it that certain groups feel more empowered when the presidential candidate and then president is openly talking about assaulting protestors?

Tough talk coming from someone who got out of military service for bone spurs.

So, what you're saying is: Obama is to blame for the huge increase in police officers being shot during his tenure?

@"SFVikingFan" said: Please list any quotes from Obama that are anywhere near as incendiary as what Trump has espoused throughout his entire political campaign and presidency.

Also, please provide evidence to back up your claim, because in 2013, during the middle of Obama's presidency, "The official count from the FBI is that 27 law enforcement officers were 'feloniously' killed in the line of duty in 2013 (the lowest in a 35-year period 1980-2014), and an additional 49 died in accidents (total: 76)."

I also see an overall downward trend since about the 1970s.  Where is this huge increase that you speak of?

I think his main point was that it was stupid to blame Trump
for others activities and was using Obama-Police Deaths as a point.  I don’t think he was talking seriously about
Obama directly causing increases in Police Deaths.

@"medaille" said: I expanded on the table a little bit.

Estimated # of Agencies Nationwide				17985
Year	# of Agencies	# of Incidents	# of Offenses	# of Incidents per Agency	# of Offenses per Agency	Total Offenses Nationwide	Population	Offenses per 100K People
2005	2037	7763	8373	3.81	4.11	73918.35	295,129,501	25.05
2006	2105	7722	9080	3.67	4.31	77515.35	297,831,879	26.03
2007	2025	7624	9006	3.76	4.45	80033.25	300,534,257	26.63
2008	2145	7783	9186	3.63	4.28	76975.80	303,236,635	25.38
2009	2034	6604	7789	3.25	3.83	68882.55	305,939,013	22.52
2010	1949	6628	7699	3.4	3.95	71040.75	308,641,391	23.02
2011	1944	6222	7254	3.2	3.73	67084.05	310,898,945	21.58
2012	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	313,156,499	NA
2013	1826	5928	6933	3.25	3.80	68343.00	315,414,054	21.67
2014	1666	5479	6418	3.29	3.85	69242.25	317,671,608	21.8
2015	1742	5850	6885	3.36	3.95	71040.75	319,929,162	22.21
2016	1776	6121	7321	3.45	4.12	74098.20	322,179,605	23
2017	2040	7175	8437	3.52	4.14	74457.90	324,459,463	22.95

@"AGRforever" said:

@"medaille" said: I expanded on the table a little bit.

Estimated # of Agencies Nationwide				17985
Year	# of Agencies	# of Incidents	# of Offenses	# of Incidents per Agency	# of Offenses per Agency	Total Offenses Nationwide	Population	Offenses per 100K People
2005	2037	7763	8373	3.81	4.11	73918.35	295,129,501	25.05
2006	2105	7722	9080	3.67	4.31	77515.35	297,831,879	26.03
2007	2025	7624	9006	3.76	4.45	80033.25	300,534,257	26.63
2008	2145	7783	9186	3.63	4.28	76975.80	303,236,635	25.38
2009	2034	6604	7789	3.25	3.83	68882.55	305,939,013	22.52
2010	1949	6628	7699	3.4	3.95	71040.75	308,641,391	23.02
2011	1944	6222	7254	3.2	3.73	67084.05	310,898,945	21.58
2012	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	NA	313,156,499	NA
2013	1826	5928	6933	3.25	3.80	68343.00	315,414,054	21.67
2014	1666	5479	6418	3.29	3.85	69242.25	317,671,608	21.8
2015	1742	5850	6885	3.36	3.95	71040.75	319,929,162	22.21
2016	1776	6121	7321	3.45	4.12	74098.20	322,179,605	23
2017	2040	7175	8437	3.52	4.14	74457.90	324,459,463	22.95

So wait?  Actual math??  Numbers??  LOL  This post right here blows up the whole hate crime/hoax crime BS being spewed. The "rate" of hate crimes is identical for the last decade plus.

@"pumpf" said:

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: Seems odd how the agencies reporting drops down pretty significantly during obama's terms in contrast to when it's a Republican.....do the crimes not take place in those areas when certain parties are in control or do those areas just not push their numbers up to the FBI when it makes certain parties look bad?

Or is it that certain groups feel more empowered when the presidential candidate and then president is openly talking about assaulting protestors?

Tough talk coming from someone who got out of military service for bone spurs.

So, what you're saying is: Obama is to blame for the huge increase in police officers being shot during his tenure?

@"savannahskol" said:

@"SFVikeFan" said:

Meanwhile real hate crimes went up 17% under Trump with more than 7000 hate crimes in 2017.  

Both you and MB have mentioned "17%" as a remarkable number... so let's do a deeper dive into the numbers, shall we? 
My source is the FBI statistics. https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime

These years/numbers reflect 3 presidents (Bush, Obama, Trump)
The columns are  1) Year  2) Number of Law enforcement agencies reporting 3) Incidents  4) Offenses  

2005          2037            7763            8373
2006          2105            7722            9080
2007          2025            7624            9006
2008          2145            7783            9186
2009          2034            6604            7789
2010          1949            6628            7699
2011          1944            6222            7254
2012          NA
2013          1826            5928            6933
2014          1666            5479            6418
2015          1742            5850            6885
2016          1776            6121            7321
2017          2040            7175            8437

2018 numbers are not posted yet.  

Off the top.... yes... the '16 to '17 numbers seem quite the jump (increase). But not even 'highs', for the last 12 yrs. 
Reason mag (hardly right-wing) seems to qualify >> https://reason.com/blog/2018/11/13/fbi-hate-crime-statistics-increase-trump

Let's look at some numbers via the data.  
First off... as our population has increased (since '05) hate crimes(as a % of population) have decreased over time.  
Second... Obama had an INCREASE of 6418 to 7321 (('14 to '16) of 12.5 %.  AT THE END OF HIS PRESIDENCY.  Where was the consternation, then? 
Third.... Trump's numbers are only slightly above Obama's "worst" years.  (13.5%). 
Fourth... If you look at total hate crime offenses/total population... in the last decade... we're BETTER than where we were in 2008. 
(2008  9186 offenses/304.1 million people) = 0.0030%)
(2017  8437 offenses/325.7 million people) = 0.0026%)

And doesn't the 0.00whatever % give anyone pause that America is pretty damn tolerant?  Whoever is POTUS?

 @"SFVikeFan" said:

19 fake hate crimes vs. 15,000 actual hate crimes in the same time period.

Which ones do right wingers and Fox News push a narrative for?   

lol. 

@"SFVikeFan" said:

Which side pushed for gun control and which didn't again?

While Obama was pleading with Congress for help against gun violence, the GOP was hellbent on ensuring gun laws are as lax as possible per their NRA lobbyist masters ... so it's pretty absurd you want to blame Obama for the uptick in cops shot, since gun violence against non-police had also increased thanks to GOP refusing to budge on any efforts to curb gun violence. 

@"SFVikeFan" said:

@"savannahskol" said:

...

The only statistic remotely relevant here is the 15,000 of real hate crimes vs 19 staged, fake hate crimes.

Smollett and his idioticy deserve to be punished, but the math shows these types of fake incidents are extremely rare compared to actual hate crimes.

@"medaille" said:

@"SFVikeFan" said:

@"savannahskol" said:

...

The only statistic remotely relevant here is the 15,000 of real hate crimes vs 19 staged, fake hate crimes.

Smollett and his idioticy deserve to be punished, but the math shows these types of fake incidents are extremely rare compared to actual hate crimes.

Assuming that
15,000 hate crimes is the right number, is this even something we should be
concerned about?  The number of violent
crimes in America is 1,247,321 (per The
FBI).  That’s over an 83x difference.  The amount of people living in poverty is ~43M
and the amount of people living in near poverty is ~100M.  40M people in the US are hungry.  Medical errors kill 250,000 people every
year.  Cancer kills 590,000.  Heart Attacks kill 610,000.  How much mental effort should we spend on the
15,000 hate crimes when these other behemoths are sitting right here?  1 in 21.6k people will be affected directly by hate crimes.

Are hate crimes even relevant to any of our lives besides how prominent it is in the media, and how the media makes us feel?

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"medaille" said: Assuming that 15,000 hate crimes is the right number, is this even something we should be concerned about?  The number of violent crimes in America is 1,247,321 (per The FBI).  That’s over an 83x difference.  The amount of people living in poverty is ~43M and the amount of people living in near poverty is ~100M.  40M people in the US are hungry.  Medical errors kill 250,000 people every year.  Cancer kills 590,000.  Heart Attacks kill 610,000.  How much mental effort should we spend on the 15,000 hate crimes when these other behemoths are sitting right here?  1 in 21.6k people will be affected directly by hate crimes.

Are hate crimes even relevant to any of our lives besides how prominent it is in the media, and how the media makes us feel?

I guess if you believe that hate crimes are no different than disease, poverty and crimes of random violence, then yeah, they would be irrelevant in your mind. How do you feel about terrorism? Terrorism accounts for a miniscule amount of deaths compared with the above. And yet we treat those crimes differently. Do you know why? Also, can you think of ways we're trying to reduce poverty, combat heart disease, cancer, etc? 

@"pumpf" said:

@"SFVikeFan" said:

Which side pushed for gun control and which didn't again?

While Obama was pleading with Congress for help against gun violence, the GOP was hellbent on ensuring gun laws are as lax as possible per their NRA lobbyist masters ... so it's pretty absurd you want to blame Obama for the uptick in cops shot, since gun violence against non-police had also increased thanks to GOP refusing to budge on any efforts to curb gun violence. 

Yeah, gun control is doing wonders in Chicago.  

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"pumpf" said:

Yeah, gun control is doing wonders in Chicago.  

That's one I never heard.
Roll eyes now.

@"medaille" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"medaille" said: Assuming that 15,000 hate crimes is the right number, is this even something we should be concerned about?  The number of violent crimes in America is 1,247,321 (per The FBI).  That’s over an 83x difference.  The amount of people living in poverty is ~43M and the amount of people living in near poverty is ~100M.  40M people in the US are hungry.  Medical errors kill 250,000 people every year.  Cancer kills 590,000.  Heart Attacks kill 610,000.  How much mental effort should we spend on the 15,000 hate crimes when these other behemoths are sitting right here?  1 in 21.6k people will be affected directly by hate crimes.

Are hate crimes even relevant to any of our lives besides how prominent it is in the media, and how the media makes us feel?

I guess if you believe that hate crimes are no different than disease, poverty and crimes of random violence, then yeah, they would be irrelevant in your mind. How do you feel about terrorism? Terrorism accounts for a miniscule amount of deaths compared with the above. And yet we treat those crimes differently. Do you know why? Also, can you think of ways we're trying to reduce poverty, combat heart disease, cancer, etc? 

Terrorism is about the same level of importance to me as
hate crimes are.  Neither are something
most of us should spend much time thinking about.  Both are vastly over-emphasized in the news,
because they get people to react emotionally, even though they statistically
affect a very small number of people.  They
get people separated into two groups which can be played off of each other for
clicks, ratings, votes, or whatever.  You
spend all your time worrying about shark attacks and being struck by lightening
that you ignore all the things that are statistically relevant to your
livelihood and well being.

Any amount of extra effort beyond normal policework that is
used to combat hate crimes or terrorism could be better spent solving something
that affects a greater number of people.

If you care about yourself or others, your media intake
should be 1 article about terrorism or hate crimes compared to 100’s of
articles about how to optimize your health. 
If you spend 1 minute talking about hate crimes, you should go run for 2
hours to balance your life properly or spend 2 hours making the most healthful
food you can think of.

@"pumpf" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"pumpf" said:

Yeah, gun control is doing wonders in Chicago.  

That's one I never heard.
Roll eyes now.

Well, it's true.  Chicago and DC are 2 of the most "gun-controlled" cities in the world... and yet they have the highest gun  violence rates.  Liberals keep pushing for gun control- but they never seem to be able to explain how new rules are going to save more lives.  
Meanwhile, they're voting for "leaders" who are now openly advocating for infanticide.  That hardly seems to align with their views about trying to "save the children".

By the way, I'll just leave this here for y'all:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/43930/hate-crime-hoax-trans-person-burned-down-own-home-ryan-saavedra

@"pumpf" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"pumpf" said:

Yeah, gun control is doing wonders in Chicago.  

That's one I never heard.
Roll eyes now.

Well, it's true.  Chicago and DC are 2 of the most "gun-controlled" cities in the world... and yet they have the highest gun  violence rates.  Liberals keep pushing for gun control- but they never seem to be able to explain how new rules are going to save more lives.  
Meanwhile, they're voting for "leaders" who are now openly advocating for infanticide.  That hardly seems to align with their views about trying to "save the children".

By the way, I'll just leave this here for y'all:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/43930/hate-crime-hoax-trans-person-burned-down-own-home-ryan-saavedra

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"medaille" said: Assuming that 15,000 hate crimes is the right number, is this even something we should be concerned about?  The number of violent crimes in America is 1,247,321 (per The FBI).  That’s over an 83x difference.  The amount of people living in poverty is ~43M and the amount of people living in near poverty is ~100M.  40M people in the US are hungry.  Medical errors kill 250,000 people every year.  Cancer kills 590,000.  Heart Attacks kill 610,000.  How much mental effort should we spend on the 15,000 hate crimes when these other behemoths are sitting right here?  1 in 21.6k people will be affected directly by hate crimes.

Are hate crimes even relevant to any of our lives besides how prominent it is in the media, and how the media makes us feel?

I guess if you believe that hate crimes are no different than disease, poverty and crimes of random violence, then yeah, they would be irrelevant in your mind. How do you feel about terrorism? Terrorism accounts for a miniscule amount of deaths compared with the above. And yet we treat those crimes differently. Do you know why? Also, can you think of ways we're trying to reduce poverty, combat heart disease, cancer, etc? 

Terrorism is about the same level of importance to me as
hate crimes are.  Neither are something
most of us should spend much time thinking about.  Both are vastly over-emphasized in the news,
because they get people to react emotionally, even though they statistically
affect a very small number of people.  They
get people separated into two groups which can be played off of each other for
clicks, ratings, votes, or whatever.  You
spend all your time worrying about shark attacks and being struck by lightening
that you ignore all the things that are statistically relevant to your
livelihood and well being.

Any amount of extra effort beyond normal policework that is
used to combat hate crimes or terrorism could be better spent solving something
that affects a greater number of people.
If you care about yourself or others, your media intake
should be 1 article about terrorism or hate crimes compared to 100’s of
articles about how to optimize your health. 
If you spend 1 minute talking about hate crimes, you should go run for 2
hours to balance your life properly or spend 2 hours making the most healthful
food you can think of.

So 25 years ago in the town where I grew up, Billings, MT,  a group of Neo-Nazis broke the windows out of the home owned by a Jewish doctor displaying his Menorah. He was actually my personal doctor. Dr. Brian Schnitzer. 

The community reacted strongly. The town paper, The Billings Gazette, my employer at the time, printed a huge menorah in the paper and encouraged those opposed to that kind of hate to display it in their windows. It was freaking everywhere. I mean EVERYWHERE. Stores, schools, houses, churches. As you might imagine, Billings, MT is not a place where a lot of Jews reside. So it was a beautiful thing. A town that said no to hate. The little dick Nazis ran for their lives. They even made a movie about it. 

I’m guessing, Medaille, if you were Mayor of Billings, you would’ve held a Fun Run because, y’know, heart disease kills more Americans than Nazis. 

@"medaille" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"medaille" said: Assuming that 15,000 hate crimes is the right number, is this even something we should be concerned about?  The number of violent crimes in America is 1,247,321 (per The FBI).  That’s over an 83x difference.  The amount of people living in poverty is ~43M and the amount of people living in near poverty is ~100M.  40M people in the US are hungry.  Medical errors kill 250,000 people every year.  Cancer kills 590,000.  Heart Attacks kill 610,000.  How much mental effort should we spend on the 15,000 hate crimes when these other behemoths are sitting right here?  1 in 21.6k people will be affected directly by hate crimes.

Are hate crimes even relevant to any of our lives besides how prominent it is in the media, and how the media makes us feel?

I guess if you believe that hate crimes are no different than disease, poverty and crimes of random violence, then yeah, they would be irrelevant in your mind. How do you feel about terrorism? Terrorism accounts for a miniscule amount of deaths compared with the above. And yet we treat those crimes differently. Do you know why? Also, can you think of ways we're trying to reduce poverty, combat heart disease, cancer, etc? 

Terrorism is about the same level of importance to me as
hate crimes are.  Neither are something
most of us should spend much time thinking about.  Both are vastly over-emphasized in the news,
because they get people to react emotionally, even though they statistically
affect a very small number of people.  They
get people separated into two groups which can be played off of each other for
clicks, ratings, votes, or whatever.  You
spend all your time worrying about shark attacks and being struck by lightening
that you ignore all the things that are statistically relevant to your
livelihood and well being.

Any amount of extra effort beyond normal policework that is
used to combat hate crimes or terrorism could be better spent solving something
that affects a greater number of people.
If you care about yourself or others, your media intake
should be 1 article about terrorism or hate crimes compared to 100’s of
articles about how to optimize your health. 
If you spend 1 minute talking about hate crimes, you should go run for 2
hours to balance your life properly or spend 2 hours making the most healthful
food you can think of.

So 25 years ago in the town where I grew up, Billings, MT,  a group of Neo-Nazis broke the windows out of the home owned by a Jewish doctor displaying his Menorah. He was actually my personal doctor. Dr. Brian Schnitzer. 

The community reacted strongly. The town paper, The Billings Gazette, my employer at the time, printed a huge menorah in the paper and encouraged those opposed to that kind of hate to display it in their windows. It was freaking everywhere. I mean EVERYWHERE. Stores, schools, houses, churches. As you might imagine, Billings, MT is not a place where a lot of Jews reside. So it was a beautiful thing. A town that said no to hate. The little dick Nazis ran for their lives. They even made a movie about it. 

I’m guessing, Medaille, if you were Mayor of Billings, you would’ve held a Fun Run because, y’know, heart disease kills more Americans than Nazis. 

The community of Billings is the perfect people to pay attention to that issue, because they are the people it affects and the people that have the power to do something, but do people in Los Angeles or Atlanta or Buffalo need to have their 24 hour news coverage dominated for 3 weeks about in issue that Billings can take care of?  Do they need to be getting pissed off and stressed out about something they are so far removed from that they can't do anything anyway that matters?  If Billings discovered that their group of neo-nazis liked wearing Levi's and shopping at Sears, should Californians shame people that wear Levi's and try to hold protests in Sears parking lot?  Do we need the US senators and representatives creating a department of homeland security and making people take their shoes off at airports over the issue?

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"pumpf" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"pumpf" said:

Yeah, gun control is doing wonders in Chicago.  

That's one I never heard.
Roll eyes now.

Well, it's true.  Chicago and DC are 2 of the most "gun-controlled" cities in the world... and yet they have the highest gun  violence rates.  Liberals keep pushing for gun control- but they never seem to be able to explain how new rules are going to save more lives.  
Meanwhile, they're voting for "leaders" who are now openly advocating for infanticide.  That hardly seems to align with their views about trying to "save the children".

By the way, I'll just leave this here for y'all:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/43930/hate-crime-hoax-trans-person-burned-down-own-home-ryan-saavedra

In related news, Ethiopia received more US aid than any other country in the world to combat famine and hunger. And yet hunger remains a problem there. Not that I would expect a conservative evangelical to know the first thing about the least among us.  

@"pumpf" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"pumpf" said:

Yeah, gun control is doing wonders in Chicago.  

That's one I never heard.
Roll eyes now.

Well, it's true.  Chicago and DC are 2 of the most "gun-controlled" cities in the world... and yet they have the highest gun  violence rates.  Liberals keep pushing for gun control- but they never seem to be able to explain how new rules are going to save more lives.  
Meanwhile, they're voting for "leaders" who are now openly advocating for infanticide.  That hardly seems to align with their views about trying to "save the children".

By the way, I'll just leave this here for y'all:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/43930/hate-crime-hoax-trans-person-burned-down-own-home-ryan-saavedra

@"pumpf" said:

@"MaroonBells" said: ...