Vikings better hope they're right about draft and PFF is Wrong

The Vikings eschewed a safe pick at No. 30 overall — an offensive guard to perhaps plug in and start right away in place of the retired Joe Berger.

A "safe pick" at that point would have been a reach or a very poor fit. And shockingly, Arif has a chart with lots of numbers and intense number crunching.  And if PFF had Remmers as our best tackle, then that is more reason to doubt their accuracy on the offensive line.

I would think the Vikings have a little advantage over PFF as they “focus” on their team full time, while PFF judges all 32 teams watching tape.
They don’t have access to see the players day to day, including health concerns, practice squaders et al.
That and the majority owner is chris collinsworth. 

@"Maple Surple" said: I would think the Vikings have a little advantage over PFF as they “focus” on their team full time, while PFF judges all 32 teams watching tape. They don’t have access to see the players day to day, including health concerns, practice squaders et al. That and the majority owner is chris collinsworth. 

Seriously?  no wonder some of their stuff seems like inane blathering.

I read that they have very few people actually doing the grading as well.  Seems like a lot of film for a lot of players for a lot of games for so few people.

@"greediron" said:

@"Maple Surple" said: I would think the Vikings have a little advantage over PFF as they “focus” on their team full time, while PFF judges all 32 teams watching tape. They don’t have access to see the players day to day, including health concerns, practice squaders et al. That and the majority owner is chris collinsworth. 

Seriously?  no wonder some of their stuff seems like inane blathering.

I read that they have very few people actually doing the grading as well.  Seems like a lot of film for a lot of players for a lot of games for so few people.

@"greediron" said:

The Vikings eschewed a safe pick at No. 30 overall — an offensive guard to perhaps plug in and start right away in place of the retired Joe Berger.

A "safe pick" at that point would have been a reach or a very poor fit. And shockingly, Arif has a chart with lots of numbers and intense number crunching.  And if PFF had Remmers as our best tackle, then that is more reason to doubt their accuracy on the offensive line.

I don't think selecting someone like James Daniels at 30 would have been a reach. I get that Hernandez was not a scheme fit and there were questions on what position Connor Williams should play, but Daniels could have immediately been inserted to start at Right Guard and upgraded our OLine. Rick gambled and lost, and he even said as much about the unexpected run of Olineman in the 2nd round. The bigger reach was taking O'Neill at the end of the 2nd because he said he was the best O'Lineman available, but he certainly wasn't the Best Payer Available which contradicts Rick's "BPA draft strategy" he constantly talks about. He knew they put themselves into a position that they had to take Offensive Line with that pick because they didn't anticipate the value other teams had placed on Interior Lineman in this draft. Hughes could very well turn out to be an amazing player for us, but it was a luxury pick. There was depth at Corner in the first 3 rounds that Zimmer would've had a chance to develop. Hughes return abilities are a nice bonus, but the Kick Returner role in the NFL is almost irrelevant since they moved the kickoff spot to the 35 yard line. Hopefully he can replace Sherrels at PR, but we have been expecting that to happen for a number of years while he still holds on to that position. 

PFF isn't perfect, and you can find plenty of examples where good players don't test out well in their grading system, but I think it's a useful tool to determine on the field performance. 

What Rand suggests in his article is what a lot of us were upset about after this weekend. I view the first 2-3 picks in a draft as players who need to start and contribute right away especially for a team in the middle of it's "Championship Window". The Vikings came away with developmental players who will need time and coaching to see their full potential realized. There seemed to be a lack of urgency with these picks for a team that has a Super Bowl or bust mentality. When Miller went off the board at 15, and then Ragnow and Price in the early 20's, the run had already started but they chose to ignore it and add a Corner who won't start. Hopefully I'm proven wrong and I'm making a bigger issue out of this than what it is, but we didn't upgrade our starting 5 for 2018 when we had a golden opportunity to do so IMO. 

@"TBro" said:

@"greediron" said:

The Vikings eschewed a safe pick at No. 30 overall — an offensive guard to perhaps plug in and start right away in place of the retired Joe Berger.

A "safe pick" at that point would have been a reach or a very poor fit. And shockingly, Arif has a chart with lots of numbers and intense number crunching.  And if PFF had Remmers as our best tackle, then that is more reason to doubt their accuracy on the offensive line.

I don't think selecting someone like James Daniels at 30 would have been a reach. I get that Hernandez was not a scheme fit and there were questions on what position Connor Williams should play, but Daniels could have immediately been inserted to start at Right Guard and upgraded our OLine. Rick gambled and lost, and he even said as much about the unexpected run of Olineman in the 2nd round. The bigger reach was taking O'Neill at the end of the 2nd because he said he was the best O'Lineman available, but he certainly wasn't the Best Payer Available which contradicts Rick's "BPA draft strategy" he constantly talks about. He knew they put themselves into a position that they had to take Offensive Line with that pick because they didn't anticipate the value other teams had placed on Interior Lineman in this draft. Hughes could very well turn out to be an amazing player for us, but it was a luxury pick. There was depth at Corner in the first 3 rounds that Zimmer would've had a chance to develop. Hughes return abilities are a nice bonus, but the Kick Returner role in the NFL is almost irrelevant since they moved the kickoff spot to the 35 yard line. Hopefully he can replace Sherrels at PR, but we have been expecting that to happen for a number of years while he still holds on to that position. 

PFF isn't perfect, and you can find plenty of examples where good players don't test out well in their grading system, but I think it's a useful tool to determine on the field performance. 

What Rand suggests in his article is what a lot of us were upset about after this weekend. I view the first 2-3 picks in a draft as players who need to start and contribute right away especially for a team in the middle of it's "Championship Window". The Vikings came away with developmental players who will need time and coaching to see their full potential realized. There seemed to be a lack of urgency with these picks for a team that has a Super Bowl or bust mentality. When Miller went off the board at 15, and then Ragnow and Price in the early 20's, the run had already started but they chose to ignore it and add a Corner who won't start. Hopefully I'm proven wrong and I'm making a bigger issue out of this than what it is, but we didn't upgrade our starting 5 for 2018 when we had a golden opportunity to do so IMO. 

TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

@"Poiple" said:

@"TBro" said:

@"greediron" said:

The Vikings eschewed a safe pick at No. 30 overall — an offensive guard to perhaps plug in and start right away in place of the retired Joe Berger.

A "safe pick" at that point would have been a reach or a very poor fit. And shockingly, Arif has a chart with lots of numbers and intense number crunching.  And if PFF had Remmers as our best tackle, then that is more reason to doubt their accuracy on the offensive line.

I don't think selecting someone like James Daniels at 30 would have been a reach. I get that Hernandez was not a scheme fit and there were questions on what position Connor Williams should play, but Daniels could have immediately been inserted to start at Right Guard and upgraded our OLine. Rick gambled and lost, and he even said as much about the unexpected run of Olineman in the 2nd round. The bigger reach was taking O'Neill at the end of the 2nd because he said he was the best O'Lineman available, but he certainly wasn't the Best Payer Available which contradicts Rick's "BPA draft strategy" he constantly talks about. He knew they put themselves into a position that they had to take Offensive Line with that pick because they didn't anticipate the value other teams had placed on Interior Lineman in this draft. Hughes could very well turn out to be an amazing player for us, but it was a luxury pick. There was depth at Corner in the first 3 rounds that Zimmer would've had a chance to develop. Hughes return abilities are a nice bonus, but the Kick Returner role in the NFL is almost irrelevant since they moved the kickoff spot to the 35 yard line. Hopefully he can replace Sherrels at PR, but we have been expecting that to happen for a number of years while he still holds on to that position. 

PFF isn't perfect, and you can find plenty of examples where good players don't test out well in their grading system, but I think it's a useful tool to determine on the field performance. 

What Rand suggests in his article is what a lot of us were upset about after this weekend. I view the first 2-3 picks in a draft as players who need to start and contribute right away especially for a team in the middle of it's "Championship Window". The Vikings came away with developmental players who will need time and coaching to see their full potential realized. There seemed to be a lack of urgency with these picks for a team that has a Super Bowl or bust mentality. When Miller went off the board at 15, and then Ragnow and Price in the early 20's, the run had already started but they chose to ignore it and add a Corner who won't start. Hopefully I'm proven wrong and I'm making a bigger issue out of this than what it is, but we didn't upgrade our starting 5 for 2018 when we had a golden opportunity to do so IMO. 

reading my mind T Bro.

@"FSUVike" said: TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

I don't think this was inexperience in picking this late...  it was just a really weird draft with how some of these players came off the board.  First time in how long that 5 QBs were drafted in the first round...  then tell me the last draft where there were 4 OGs picked in the first round...
Most drafts will have a couple OTs go in the first and maybe 1-2 C/OGs in any given year, but to have four selected in the first round???  And then have 3 more C/OGs go in the first five picks of the 2nd round???  That's INSANE.
I really think that the Vikings were expecting at least one of Price, Ragnow, or Corbett to be there at 62.  I also think they expected Wynn to be available at #30 and I have a feeling they would considered taking him there.  When Wynn, Price, and Ragnow came off the board before their first round pick, I don't doubt for a second that the Vikings figured the next best OGs would drop into the latter half of the 2nd round.
They didn't...  but I would say it was more of a strange draft than anything the Vikings did wrong.

@"FSUVike" said: TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

He does have some strength issues, but he is an extremely mobile interior O'Lineman who would fit DeFillipo's system very well so that is why I suggested it. I thought he had fewer concerns than moving Williams from tackle to guard but I would have been happy with either one at 30. I still wanted Hernandez over both of them and feel his feet are quick enough to play in any blocking system we want to run. Clearly the Vikings thought otherwise and couldn't resist adding another corner. 

I guess I just need to let it go and hope we can find a solid long term starter at RG with what we have. I'm not in favor of moving Remmers just to move Remmers until we have a proven RT that is an upgrade. 

@"Wetlander" said:

@"FSUVike" said: TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

I don't think this was inexperience in picking this late...  it was just a really weird draft with how some of these players came off the board.  First time in how long that 5 QBs were drafted in the first round...  then tell me the last draft where there were 4 OGs picked in the first round...
Most drafts will have a couple OTs go in the first and maybe 1-2 C/OGs in any given year, but to have four selected in the first round???  And then have 3 more C/OGs go in the first five picks of the 2nd round???  That's INSANE.
I really think that the Vikings were expecting at least one of Price, Ragnow, or Corbett to be there at 62.  I also think they expected Wynn to be available at #30 and I have a feeling they would considered taking him there.  When Wynn, Price, and Ragnow came off the board before their first round pick, I don't doubt for a second that the Vikings figured the next best OGs would drop into the latter half of the 2nd round.
They didn't...  but I would say it was more of a strange draft than anything the Vikings did wrong.

@"Wetlander" said:

@"FSUVike" said: TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

I don't think this was inexperience in picking this late...  it was just a really weird draft with how some of these players came off the board.  First time in how long that 5 QBs were drafted in the first round...  then tell me the last draft where there were 4 OGs picked in the first round...
Most drafts will have a couple OTs go in the first and maybe 1-2 C/OGs in any given year, but to have four selected in the first round???  And then have 3 more C/OGs go in the first five picks of the 2nd round???  That's INSANE.
I really think that the Vikings were expecting at least one of Price, Ragnow, or Corbett to be there at 62.  I also think they expected Wynn to be available at #30 and I have a feeling they would considered taking him there.  When Wynn, Price, and Ragnow came off the board before their first round pick, I don't doubt for a second that the Vikings figured the next best OGs would drop into the latter half of the 2nd round.
They didn't...  but I would say it was more of a strange draft than anything the Vikings did wrong.

@"Wetlander" said:

@"FSUVike" said: TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

I don't think this was inexperience in picking this late...  it was just a really weird draft with how some of these players came off the board.  First time in how long that 5 QBs were drafted in the first round...  then tell me the last draft where there were 4 OGs picked in the first round...
Most drafts will have a couple OTs go in the first and maybe 1-2 C/OGs in any given year, but to have four selected in the first round???  And then have 3 more C/OGs go in the first five picks of the 2nd round???  That's INSANE.
I really think that the Vikings were expecting at least one of Price, Ragnow, or Corbett to be there at 62.  I also think they expected Wynn to be available at #30 and I have a feeling they would considered taking him there.  When Wynn, Price, and Ragnow came off the board before their first round pick, I don't doubt for a second that the Vikings figured the next best OGs would drop into the latter half of the 2nd round.
They didn't...  but I would say it was more of a strange draft than anything the Vikings did wrong.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"FSUVike" said: TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

I don't think this was inexperience in picking this late...  it was just a really weird draft with how some of these players came off the board.  First time in how long that 5 QBs were drafted in the first round...  then tell me the last draft where there were 4 OGs picked in the first round...
Most drafts will have a couple OTs go in the first and maybe 1-2 C/OGs in any given year, but to have four selected in the first round???  And then have 3 more C/OGs go in the first five picks of the 2nd round???  That's INSANE.
I really think that the Vikings were expecting at least one of Price, Ragnow, or Corbett to be there at 62.  I also think they expected Wynn to be available at #30 and I have a feeling they would considered taking him there.  When Wynn, Price, and Ragnow came off the board before their first round pick, I don't doubt for a second that the Vikings figured the next best OGs would drop into the latter half of the 2nd round.
They didn't...  but I would say it was more of a strange draft than anything the Vikings did wrong.

exactly,  and maybe all the talk about how deep this draft was will really be a lot of hot air.  these OGs that were taken were nice players,  but outside of nelson I dont know that any of them will be guys to get excited about when they near FA in 4-5 years.  This draft was a mess for everybody the way it looks and if the team  already had plans in place to kick Remmers inside like Geoff has stated numerous times,  well maybe its the fans that misread the draft and were really looking in the wrong direction completely.

On a cross thread note...

PFF re graded the 2015 #1 draft picks
a year later...
& still thought it sucked
Not sure if they have re re graded since  ;) 
11. Trae Waynes, CB, Minnesota Vikings
Draft Grade: C
We were not high on the Waynes pick at the time, as he’s more of a straight-line speed prospect that we saw as second-round value. He wasn’t ready to play as a rookie, but he went to a good situation in Minnesota and held his own on 196 snaps (+0.1). Still, we have our concerns that he can live up to the hype of a full-time role in the future.
- Just shows they don’t have any more clues or insights than anyone else, all along with the added luxury of...
Zero accountability !

@"Maple Surple" said: On a cross thread note...

PFF re graded the 2015 #1 draft picks
a year later...
& still thought it sucked
Not sure if they have re re graded since  ;) 
11. Trae Waynes, CB, Minnesota Vikings
Draft Grade: C
We were not high on the Waynes pick at the time, as he’s more of a straight-line speed prospect that we saw as second-round value. He wasn’t ready to play as a rookie, but he went to a good situation in Minnesota and held his own on 196 snaps (+0.1). Still, we have our concerns that he can live up to the hype of a full-time role in the future.
- Just shows they don’t have any more clues or insights than anyone else, all along with the added luxury of...
Zero accountability !

Wasnt Waynes a little slow coming on?  I mean its great that he developed into a starter but it seemed there was some question if the light bulb was going to come on.  My memory sucks so dont feel bad about correcting my perception.

@"Poiple" said:

@"Maple Surple" said: On a cross thread note...

PFF re graded the 2015 #1 draft picks
a year later...
& still thought it sucked
Not sure if they have re re graded since  ;) 
11. Trae Waynes, CB, Minnesota Vikings
Draft Grade: C
We were not high on the Waynes pick at the time, as he’s more of a straight-line speed prospect that we saw as second-round value. He wasn’t ready to play as a rookie, but he went to a good situation in Minnesota and held his own on 196 snaps (+0.1). Still, we have our concerns that he can live up to the hype of a full-time role in the future.
- Just shows they don’t have any more clues or insights than anyone else, all along with the added luxury of...
Zero accountability !

Wasnt Waynes a little slow coming on?  I mean its great that he developed into a starter but it seemed there was some question if the light bulb was going to come on.  My memory sucks so dont feel bad about correcting my perception.

@"TBro" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"FSUVike" said: TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

I don't think this was inexperience in picking this late...  it was just a really weird draft with how some of these players came off the board.  First time in how long that 5 QBs were drafted in the first round...  then tell me the last draft where there were 4 OGs picked in the first round...
Most drafts will have a couple OTs go in the first and maybe 1-2 C/OGs in any given year, but to have four selected in the first round???  And then have 3 more C/OGs go in the first five picks of the 2nd round???  That's INSANE.
I really think that the Vikings were expecting at least one of Price, Ragnow, or Corbett to be there at 62.  I also think they expected Wynn to be available at #30 and I have a feeling they would considered taking him there.  When Wynn, Price, and Ragnow came off the board before their first round pick, I don't doubt for a second that the Vikings figured the next best OGs would drop into the latter half of the 2nd round.
They didn't...  but I would say it was more of a strange draft than anything the Vikings did wrong.

exactly,  and maybe all the talk about how deep this draft was will really be a lot of hot air.  these OGs that were taken were nice players,  but outside of nelson I dont know that any of them will be guys to get excited about when they near FA in 4-5 years.  This draft was a mess for everybody the way it looks and if the team  already had plans in place to kick Remmers inside like Geoff has stated numerous times,  well maybe its the fans that misread the draft and were really looking in the wrong direction completely.

Jimmy, I agree that the Vikings want to move Remmers to guard, but we still don't have a starting RT that is better than him ready to start at that position in 2018. We have a bunch of career backup and developmental players who will be fighting for whichever spot Remmers doesn't take and that's a scary feeling when you invested a lot of money into your franchise QB. 

@"Poiple" said:

I have usually liked Rick’s performance.  With exception of lineman i think he has done a very good job.  But the draft is a GMs Superbowl and Rick didnt do well.  Setting the team’s goals and accomplishing them is his job.  Knowing the draft picks and what the team’s needs who pick before are is his job.  

He pretty much put himself on report. 

Here's the thing...  I don't think that Price or Ragnow are any better prospects than Elflein was last year or Cody Whitehair was the year before.  Both of those guys went early 3rd and late 2nd in their respective drafts.  I like Price and Ragnow, but I think they were major reaches where they were taken.  You can find starting OGs pretty routinely in the 2nd-4th rounds of almost every draft and there are always a few good ones that go later or are undrafted.  The hard part is figuring out which ones are the good ones...  ;-)
I don't know that Rick "didn't do well".  Time will tell.  However, I think Hughes has a better chance to turn into a Pro Bowl-type player than Price or Ragnow or any of the other OGs taken after him.  Add in the fact that CB is a much more valuable position than OG and I can see why the Vikings bypassed the remaining OG prospects with the #30 pick.
I guess I'm not convinced that our offensive line is that bad.  They looked pretty damn good when the whole unit was healthy early last season.  The Vikings have some good young players and some veterans with starting experience to figure out what the team wants to do to replace Joe Berger.

@"Poiple" said:

@"Maple Surple" said: On a cross thread note...

PFF re graded the 2015 #1 draft picks
a year later...
& still thought it sucked
Not sure if they have re re graded since  ;) 
11. Trae Waynes, CB, Minnesota Vikings
Draft Grade: C
We were not high on the Waynes pick at the time, as he’s more of a straight-line speed prospect that we saw as second-round value. He wasn’t ready to play as a rookie, but he went to a good situation in Minnesota and held his own on 196 snaps (+0.1). Still, we have our concerns that he can live up to the hype of a full-time role in the future.
- Just shows they don’t have any more clues or insights than anyone else, all along with the added luxury of...
Zero accountability !

Wasnt Waynes a little slow coming on?  I mean its great that he developed into a starter but it seemed there was some question if the light bulb was going to come on.  My memory sucks so dont feel bad about correcting my perception.