Vikings better hope they're right about draft and PFF is Wrong

@"Wetlander" said:

@"FSUVike" said: TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

I don't think this was inexperience in picking this late...  it was just a really weird draft with how some of these players came off the board.  First time in how long that 5 QBs were drafted in the first round...  then tell me the last draft where there were 4 OGs picked in the first round...
Most drafts will have a couple OTs go in the first and maybe 1-2 C/OGs in any given year, but to have four selected in the first round???  And then have 3 more C/OGs go in the first five picks of the 2nd round???  That's INSANE.
I really think that the Vikings were expecting at least one of Price, Ragnow, or Corbett to be there at 62.  I also think they expected Wynn to be available at #30 and I have a feeling they would considered taking him there.  When Wynn, Price, and Ragnow came off the board before their first round pick, I don't doubt for a second that the Vikings figured the next best OGs would drop into the latter half of the 2nd round.
They didn't...  but I would say it was more of a strange draft than anything the Vikings did wrong.

@"TBro" said: This is exactly how I feel. It was a below average draft strategy and a below average draft. 

Time will tell or course, but can we afford to wait 2-3 years for this draft class to develop and contribute?

http://www.startribune.com/vikings-better-hope-theyre-right-about-draft-and-pro-football-focus-is-wrong/481256141/

Yes, I believe that we can.  We were one lousy game away from getting to the Super Bowl.  In the meantime, we upgraded at QB, RB (Cook was out most of the year), DT and DB.  I don't think we got worse anywhere.  And, yes, our OL is still a question mark.  But we are already a REALLY good team.  I think we CAN afford to draft talented players for depth... and then coach them up.

some good points greed... no doubt.  Especially about CBs being higher valued than OGs.  That wasnt forefront in my thinking.

They (Our O line) were looking pretty good but maybe for us Vike fans that means average lol.  And part of them looking good was Keenum scrambling.

 Then an entire season with little rotation and one injury and it all fell apart a bit didnt it?  It seemed to me that it did.  I believe there was some commentary along the same lines. At least in pass protection they suffered a big setback.

I wont even begin to tackle how good these lineman grade out especially coming in from college.  Instead i have to rely on you guys who follow it and of course the talking heads.

I mentioned this a while ago... remember the Packers draft immediatly after Moss’s first year?   They drafted 4 CBs because they had been shredded and knew they were going ti be shredded for years.  Those guys went on to be a pain for us for years to come.  We hated those guys. Their secondary became a strength.  Thats how you fix a problem, how you turn it into a strength.

I really think if the Vikes want to be a long term contender they need to turn this weakness into a strength.  Drafting a #3-4 CB in the first round and a project tweener OT in the second, isnt sending the message that they are serious about it.  

I think Rick blew it.  He knew the need.  He guessed wrong.  He didnt anticipate correctly.  He didnt trade up to fill the hole.  He stood pat and guessed wrong.  I still like Rick.  Im not calling for his head.  But I am disappointed that a well known weakness wasnt corrected and it will limit their success.  I fully expect it to reduce their ability in securing a first round bye and home field advantage in the playoffs.

I do not expect a Superbowl appearance with this line.

 I would be very, very happy to be wrong. 

with all these interior guys drafted there will be some older vets getting cut. if we dont already have “it” on the OL there will be more FAs to be had. 

id rather get someone who can be great in the first then a marginal guy just because we need that position. as for the oneil pick. whos to say he wasnt the bpa??  hes also one hell of an athlete. i like the chances of turning him into a dang good tackle. 

@"FSUVike" said: TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

I don't understand why picking at #30 in round 1 is much different from starting in round 2, as they did in 2017 (starting at pick #41). They started at #23 in 2016, and also in 2013. Vikings' first pick in 2010 was #34. In 2014 they had the #9 pick but after using it, worked into the end of round 1 (#32) to draft Bridgewater.  Did it matter from that point that he had already picked Barr, or was the rest of the draft - from #32 onward - so different than this year starting at #30?

I know the team has more opportunities to trade DOWN if they start very high, but other than that, don't they treat each pick as, "I have the first pick in the draft of all the REMAINING PLAYERS"? It actually seems like drafting relatively late, #30, they would have watched 29 other teams pick and seen the trends of which positions were in high demand that year, and possibly understand the nature of this year's draft.

The best defense for this draft - or any - is to say the Vikings feel they know who they wanted better than amateurs or sportswriters and are thrilled with who they added. The team's GM and HC should be saying that, and expressing anything else is a disservice to all the players drafted, isn't it? "Well, we were hoping for someone other than O'Neill but I guess we have to settle for him", is hardly a vote of confidence.

Biggest surprise to me was Spielman and Zimmer openly admitting they were taken by surprise and missed some players they wanted. Yes, I do call them out when they are feeding positive spin / PR fluff to the media and fans - but the positive spin is really the correct thing to say.

I agree with Jor-El,  i dont buy the excuse that they were some how confused by drafting 30th.  although I am not looking for excuses as I really dont have an issue with the draft,  but for those that think they pooched it and are making that excuse... thats horse shit,  they are professionals,  they should be able to extrapolate their experience in the mid 20s and have the resources to calculate how the draft would fall for them at 30, 60, etc....  with that said,  if anybody says they saw that run of Guards happening this year... I call bull shit.

@"Poiple" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"FSUVike" said: TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

I don't think this was inexperience in picking this late...  it was just a really weird draft with how some of these players came off the board.  First time in how long that 5 QBs were drafted in the first round...  then tell me the last draft where there were 4 OGs picked in the first round...
Most drafts will have a couple OTs go in the first and maybe 1-2 C/OGs in any given year, but to have four selected in the first round???  And then have 3 more C/OGs go in the first five picks of the 2nd round???  That's INSANE.
I really think that the Vikings were expecting at least one of Price, Ragnow, or Corbett to be there at 62.  I also think they expected Wynn to be available at #30 and I have a feeling they would considered taking him there.  When Wynn, Price, and Ragnow came off the board before their first round pick, I don't doubt for a second that the Vikings figured the next best OGs would drop into the latter half of the 2nd round.
They didn't...  but I would say it was more of a strange draft than anything the Vikings did wrong.

I have usually liked Rick’s performance.  With exception of lineman i think he has done a very good job.  But the draft is a GMs Superbowl and Rick didnt do well.  Setting the team’s goals and accomplishing them is his job.  Knowing the draft picks and what the team’s needs who pick before are is his job.  

He pretty much put himself on report. 

If it's accurate that the team has all but settled on moving Remmers to OG (RG or LG?) they must like what Hill has done so far.  If they think he is equal or better than Remmers at RT then the OG NEED was less than we perceived.

lol

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Poiple" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"FSUVike" said: TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.

Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.

Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.

I don't think this was inexperience in picking this late...  it was just a really weird draft with how some of these players came off the board.  First time in how long that 5 QBs were drafted in the first round...  then tell me the last draft where there were 4 OGs picked in the first round...
Most drafts will have a couple OTs go in the first and maybe 1-2 C/OGs in any given year, but to have four selected in the first round???  And then have 3 more C/OGs go in the first five picks of the 2nd round???  That's INSANE.
I really think that the Vikings were expecting at least one of Price, Ragnow, or Corbett to be there at 62.  I also think they expected Wynn to be available at #30 and I have a feeling they would considered taking him there.  When Wynn, Price, and Ragnow came off the board before their first round pick, I don't doubt for a second that the Vikings figured the next best OGs would drop into the latter half of the 2nd round.
They didn't...  but I would say it was more of a strange draft than anything the Vikings did wrong.

I have usually liked Rick’s performance.  With exception of lineman i think he has done a very good job.  But the draft is a GMs Superbowl and Rick didnt do well.  Setting the team’s goals and accomplishing them is his job.  Knowing the draft picks and what the team’s needs who pick before are is his job.  

He pretty much put himself on report. 

I'm not an overzealous Spielman defender, but I have to disagree on at least a couple counts.

• The draft is not the GM's Super Bowl. The SUPER BOWL is the GM's Super Bowl, or maybe, "Getting to the Super Bowl" is. The draft is important and it's fun for fans. But IMO its importance is not as great as the attention we fans (me included!) place on it. Free agency, negotiating contracts, hiring coaches - those and other things I haven't even mentioned are just as important.
• We actually don't know if Spielman did well. I'm leery, but time is the only test. As I said above, my biggest surprise is that he made press statements that suggest he isn't sure he did well.

Everyone is allowed their opinion no matter how ignorant and it is their right to argue it if just to prove their ignorance. lol

Not the first time Slick Rick has messed up and probably won't be the last.

I think you guys are missing my point. Or I'm explaining it poorly.

When you're at the bottom of every round and the runs start at a position you have your eyes on with players you like you have to be ready to react.

Pittsburgh, New England, and....are there really any other teams always picking low? Anywho, they don't always wait out the run and go BPA. They will also move up as needed. Even though the cost is high.

I feel that when the O-Line runs happened in both o the first 2 Rounds Rick wanted to move up by was surprised by how early those runs came and unwilling to pay the price to move up.

I'm not arguing against his performance this year. As others !mentioned some of these kids didn't grade higher than Elf but still went in the 1st. And the team lost a lot of depth in FA that needed replacing.

But in future years the team should have fewer needs and Rick will need to recognize runs when they start to happen and be willing to expend draft capital to go get his guy, regardless of position.

@"FSUVike" said: I think you guys are missing my point. Or I'm explaining it poorly.

When you're at the bottom of every round and the runs start at a position you have your eyes on with players you like you have to be ready to react.

Pittsburgh, New England, and....are there really any other teams always picking low? Anywho, they don't always wait out the run and go BPA. They will also move up as needed. Even though the cost is high.

I feel that when the O-Line runs happened in both o the first 2 Rounds Rick wanted to move up by was surprised by how early those runs came and unwilling to pay the price to move up.

I'm not arguing against his performance this year. As others !mentioned some of these kids didn't grade higher than Elf but still went in the 1st. And the team lost a lot of depth in FA that needed replacing.

But in future years the team should have fewer needs and Rick will need to recognize runs when they start to happen and be willing to expend draft capital to go get his guy, regardless of position.

@Andrew_Krammer
35m
Jamaal Stephenson, Vikings’ director of college scouting: It really was about taking the best offensive lineman available (at pick 62). Never seen this many guards go so early.

All week they was predicting there was going to be an early run on OL. 
Rick apparently wasn't paying attention. 

@"JimmyinSD" said: I agree with Jor-El,  i dont buy the excuse that they were some how confused by drafting 30th.  although I am not looking for excuses as I really dont have an issue with the draft,  but for those that think they pooched it and are making that excuse... thats horse shit,  they are professionals,  they should be able to extrapolate their experience in the mid 20s and have the resources to calculate how the draft would fall for them at 30, 60, etc....  with that said,  if anybody says they saw that run of Guards happening this year... I call bull shit.

I saw that run on guards coming. Guys like Elflien and Whitehair have elevated th evalue of Guards, along with the fact that Olines were EXPOSED across the league last year.

Half the teams had OL as A Top 3 Need in the draft.

I knew they would fly off the board between 20 and 30 and I said exactly so.

I also said this would force a stud defender to 30 who would be too good to pass up.

I'm thrilled with O'Neill.  He will compete for a starting spot according to RS.  He's got a franchise player level ceiling.

I did not expect Corbett to go quite so high.  And, I did not expect The Cowboys to still be able to take Connor Williams with Their Second Pick.  That was probably the mystical trade back point in an alternate universe.

And poor Mike Hughes is our new KWill.  'The guy we didn't expect.'  He's the best athlete in The Secondary, already.  I'm not worried about him at all.

Maybe he will alter his approach, but I think he has other goals that are not compatible with "going up to get his guy". I think he is really loathe to give up 2 picks to get 1, or any combination of that type. Spielman wants to turn 1 pick into 2 or more, instead. Unless that changes, he is NEVER going to get in front of a run on a position, because he's going to think he can find some diamond that the rest of the league doesn't know about, and that 6th-rounder will be just as good as the 2nd-rounder he passed up.

If I'm wrong, why does he openly speak, year after year, about the goal of having 10 draft picks? And it's not just idle talk, he chases that number! Whether the idea is sound or not, why would he advertise such an aspiration to the rest of the league?? Doesn't that just tell everyone, "Spielman won't move up, and you can get his higher picks if you tempt him with some low-round candy"??

It also doesn't help that Zimmer is very obviously campaigning for added defensive players at every opportunity.

My guess: Spielman thought he would get someone at 30, but the guy went earlier. (BTW I am not sure it was an offensive lineman, but we won't know. As the draft unfolded, I figured he was watching Calvin Ridley slide and hoping to catch him...) Then he started taking calls to trade down, but apparently no calls came when they were on the clock (because the traders were looking for Taven Bryan perhaps?) Then he was stuck with no prized prospect, no offers, and Zimmer was pounding the table for Hughes, so...

As I've said elsewhere, I was - still am - not thrilled about Hughes. I just think he is too like players who could have been picked later - like DJ Reed, the undersized slot corner who is a great return man that the 49ers picked near the top of round 5. (Go check Reed's scouting report..is Hughes 3+ rounds better??) But, there are no Dimitrius Underwood picks here, so the chances are fair that Spielman won't get burned too badly for this draft. Hughes will probably be a fair contributor, O'Neill might develop into a functional OL in a couple years...there is no firing squad needed about this draft. I bet a lot of teams drafted worse! But Spielman probably won't change his approach, either.

We can spend the rest of the offseason arguing Rick's draft strategy. I know I could because I started this thread and I'm still not happy with his approach. I don't care how good your Corners are, without a good pass rush they will be exposed. We saw it first hand the last quarter of the season and definitely in the playoffs when Griff was hurt and the Pass Rush became non-existent. Is starts up front on both sides of the ball and I don't think Rick has ever placed enough importance on building an Offensive Line through early round draft picks. He has always prided himself into thinking he can outsmart everyone else and find value in the lower rounds. That was the old model that doesn't work anymore. Too many teams are investing their high draft picks on offensive line talent. What's left are prospects who more than likely won't pan out. I won't even begin to list the late round offensive line talent failures we've had since he's been here. For every Pat Elflein, there are 10 TJ Clemmings and Willie Beavers that never made it. Clearly a lot of you feel differently by defending the Hughes pick and thinking the other career backups and developmental players we have for offensive line will be able to get it done. I don't agree because we didn't do what we needed to do and that was upgrading the starting 5 with better talent in this draft for 2018. We are in a window to win now and need to show some urgency. I think he failed to do that this year with the draft by over-evaluating existing offensive line players with a hope and prayer model they will somehow miraculously improve into solid starters when they haven't show any signs they are capable to do so.  

TBro, the Eagles have an UDFA, 3rd and 6th Round pick playing on their Line. I'd wager it's the same everywhere else in the League except Dallas, where all those high picks haven't amounted to much.

@"TBro" said: We can spend the rest of the offseason arguing Rick's draft strategy. I know I could because I started this thread and I'm still not happy with his approach. I don't care how good your Corners are, without a good pass rush they will be exposed. We saw it first hand the last quarter of the season and definitely in the playoffs when Griff was hurt and the Pass Rush became non-existent. Is starts up front on both sides of the ball and I don't think Rick has ever placed enough importance on building an Offensive Line through early round draft picks. He has always prided himself into thinking he can outsmart everyone else and find value in the lower rounds. That was the old model that doesn't work anymore. Too many teams are investing their high draft picks on offensive line talent. What's left are prospects who more than likely won't pan out. I won't even begin to list the late round offensive line talent failures we've had since he's been here. For every Pat Elflein, there are 10 TJ Clemmings and Willie Beavers that never made it. Clearly a lot of you feel differently by defending the Hughes pick and thinking the other career backups and developmental players we have for offensive line will be able to get it done. I don't agree because we didn't do what we needed to do and that was upgrading the starting 5 with better talent in this draft for 2018. We are in a window to win now and need to show some urgency. I think he failed to do that this year with the draft by over-evaluating existing offensive line players with a hope and prayer model they will somehow miraculously improve into solid starters when they haven't show any signs they are capable to do so.  

he still needs to take the best football players when he does get to pick,  clearly Rick (and many others) had Hughes rated higher than what was available at 30.  we are hearing that a trade down for value wasnt available so he stayed put and got a potentially great football player.  just because he didnt get the OLman that you, i, or some others thought he needed to take doesnt make his approach wrong.  the draft didnt fall the way we wanted,  but he still improved our team,  and likely did a better job than if he had reached for an OLman,  or taken a poor value trade down.  In no way did I think he should have traded up in the first.  we arent that deep that we can afford to lose another top half of the draft selection or an even higher selection next year.   

Our OL is not the shit show that its made out to be,  yes at times Keenum made them look better than they were,  but his damn holding the ball and waiting for his favorite target to come open created a fair amount of pressure as well.  they added a couple vets, and lost a couple vets,  but also added a nice OT which should pay higher dividends long term than any G that was available at 30 would ever do.

@"FSUVike" said: I think you guys are missing my point. Or I'm explaining it poorly.

When you're at the bottom of every round and the runs start at a position you have your eyes on with players you like you have to be ready to react.

Pittsburgh, New England, and....are there really any other teams always picking low? Anywho, they don't always wait out the run and go BPA. They will also move up as needed. Even though the cost is high.

I feel that when the O-Line runs happened in both o the first 2 Rounds Rick wanted to move up by was surprised by how early those runs came and unwilling to pay the price to move up.

I'm not arguing against his performance this year. As others !mentioned some of these kids didn't grade higher than Elf but still went in the 1st. And the team lost a lot of depth in FA that needed replacing.

But in future years the team should have fewer needs and Rick will need to recognize runs when they start to happen and be willing to expend draft capital to go get his guy, regardless of position.

A very understated point.  I hear where you are coming from and it is a good theory as any here.  But yes, with fewer holes, we could do with less picks.  Or as Rick did this year, took more risks on high upside players.