Keenum

@"Bolstad79" said:

@"A1Janitor" said: It wasn't Zimmer who didn't contain the run.  It was EG.

He is a little overrated imo.  As is Hunter.  

He was a little injured in my opinion. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Ilovebigtd's" said: teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap. 

cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.

I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.

I think its valuable you point out that the Vikings window is going to be open for less time than most think. The current roster as it stands today probably has 3 more chances at a SB before it needs to be restructured. But we've seen teams get lucky with strong draft classes as well that can extend championship windows for an indefinite amount of time. 

Extending windows is all about drafting well in the late rounds. The success of the '15 and '17 classes should give us a little bigger window than what is typically expected. If we can draft well again in '18, we can take it even further. 

@"Jor-El" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Ilovebigtd's" said: teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap. 

cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.

I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.

I think its valuable you point out that the Vikings window is going to be open for less time than most think. The current roster as it stands today probably has 3 more chances at a SB before it needs to be restructured. But we've seen teams get lucky with strong draft classes as well that can extend championship windows for an indefinite amount of time. 

Extending windows is all about drafting well in the late rounds. The success of the '15 and '17 classes should give us a little bigger window than what is typically expected. If we can draft well again in '18, we can take it even further. 

Sure, but good drafts are often luck and hard to count on - especially as a team picks later. And isn't it early to call '17 a success? I see 2 good starters (from early rounds) who need to rehab from serious injuries, and a part-time LB. Optimistic to assume Jaleel Johnson, Isadora, and Coles will contribute. "Drafting well in the late rounds"? The Vikings' draft success after the first 4 rounds - despite MANY extra picks - is ONLY Stefon Diggs and Shamar Stephen. We do better with UDFAs than with late-round picks.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Ilovebigtd's" said: teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap. 

cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.

I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.

I think its valuable you point out that the Vikings window is going to be open for less time than most think. The current roster as it stands today probably has 3 more chances at a SB before it needs to be restructured. But we've seen teams get lucky with strong draft classes as well that can extend championship windows for an indefinite amount of time. 

Extending windows is all about drafting well in the late rounds. The success of the '15 and '17 classes should give us a little bigger window than what is typically expected. If we can draft well again in '18, we can take it even further. 

Sure, but good drafts are often luck and hard to count on - especially as a team picks later. And isn't it early to call '17 a success? I see 2 good starters (from early rounds) who need to rehab from serious injuries, and a part-time LB. Optimistic to assume Jaleel Johnson, Isadora, and Coles will contribute. "Drafting well in the late rounds"? The Vikings' draft success after the first 4 rounds - despite MANY extra picks - is ONLY Stefon Diggs and Shamar Stephen. We do better with UDFAs than with late-round picks.

Dalvin Cook started from day one and was the NFL's leading rusher when he went down. Pat Elflein was our starting center from day one and by some accounts our most valuable offensive player. Ben Gedeon was our starting middle linebacker from day one. If you those kind of results are typical from 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders, then you need to take a look around the NFL. I would say only the Saints had a better draft in terms of value. I don't think any team in the NFL had a better 2015 draft. 

@"Jor-El" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Ilovebigtd's" said: teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap. 

cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.

I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.

I think its valuable you point out that the Vikings window is going to be open for less time than most think. The current roster as it stands today probably has 3 more chances at a SB before it needs to be restructured. But we've seen teams get lucky with strong draft classes as well that can extend championship windows for an indefinite amount of time. 

Extending windows is all about drafting well in the late rounds. The success of the '15 and '17 classes should give us a little bigger window than what is typically expected. If we can draft well again in '18, we can take it even further. 

Sure, but good drafts are often luck and hard to count on - especially as a team picks later. And isn't it early to call '17 a success? I see 2 good starters (from early rounds) who need to rehab from serious injuries, and a part-time LB. Optimistic to assume Jaleel Johnson, Isadora, and Coles will contribute. "Drafting well in the late rounds"? The Vikings' draft success after the first 4 rounds - despite MANY extra picks - is ONLY Stefon Diggs and Shamar Stephen. We do better with UDFAs than with late-round picks.

Dalvin Cook started from day one and was the NFL's leading rusher when he went down. Pat Elflein was our starting center from day one and by some accounts our most valuable offensive player. Ben Gedeon was our starting middle linebacker from day one. If you those kind of results are typical from 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders, then you need to take a look around the NFL. I would say only the Saints had a better draft in terms of value. I don't think any team in the NFL had a better 2015 draft. 

Yes, Cook and Elflein were great picks, but the future productivity of both is in some doubt. It doesn't matter WHY a player doesn't contribute, just whether he does or not. No one on the Vikings is at fault for Kenechi Udeze getting lymphoma and retiring from football, but he was GONE once he did. Maybe he was an excellent draft pick in terms of talent, but so what?
If you're going to propose that the Vikings will have a longer-than-average "window" because they draft so effectively, they need to come away from every draft with players that produce. At the very least, each draft needs to replace the players that leave through other problems. That means we need players who stay healthy.
IMO, teams sometimes get a "bubble" of adding more good players than the rest of the league, and they have a margin of greater talent than league average, then if they are well-coached, they enjoy some good years which form the window of opportunity to win a championship. Even within that window they need one year where injuries are few and a couple good breaks happen. But their best players start to get hurt or leave and the margin between that team and their competitors collapses.

As much as we all know Zim loves Teddy, if he and Rick want to remain in their current jobs with the team they are going to have to pick the best QB for the job and be objective while doing it. My gut tells me that they don't think it's Case. I think they WISH it was Teddy. I am now wondering if it will be Sam. I think Rick is in love with Sam's arm. I don't know if Zim shares that feeling but I feel like Zim would rather have Sam over Case, too. Just my opinion, of course, and I probably will end up being wildly wrong. But at this moment, that's where I'm at.

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"Steve" said: Keenum just gave us a 13 win NFC North Title and an entry into the NFC Championship as favorites.

We got there and had 1 WR with a fractured back, an OL that was beat, and for some reason we had a historically good defense that got broken down.  Maybe it was injuries, maybe it was a coaching problem, maybe it was a little bit of both.

Regardless...  we have a guy that just proved he can win.  The Vikings had far from an easy schedule this year.  It was tough teams all the way through the season and tough draws in the playoffs.

You don't throw that away.  You give that guy a contract.  Bradford looked amazing when healthy.  Teddy has shown promise.  Both of those guys deserve a shot to compete, but neither should be guaranteed anything other than a chance to compete.  Looking outside the team when you have that kind of a roster is a bad move.  See what can be negotiated as far as contracts and if you are a man short in the end, see what else is out there.

The team should be focused on sealing up depth on the roster.  When Thielen was not 100%, it would have been nice if Treadwell could have stepped up.  It didn't happen.  We need a WR with the potential to do it.  The OL didn't protect Bradford and Keenum's escape ability was evident throughout the season.  The team should be looking at upgrading the OL.  Cornerbacks that can handle man coverage are always a need.  This year is no different.  We get the best we can afford.   Pass rushing depth is a luxury that should be looked at.  Run stoppers should be nabbed if they are available.

Let's not create an imaginary problem at QB and spend another decade twirling through a bunch of maybes.  Just because we had two capable QBs on the roster this year doesn't mean that any QB available could have done what Keenum did.  Does Thielen become the WR he is with someone else at QB?  Nobody knows for sure.  What we do know is that he works well with Bradford and Keenum both.  Same with Diggs.  Those guys aren't big names that we recruited as FAs.  We grew them in MN.  All the chemistry the team has works.  Little tweaks and a little depth are what we need.  You don't blow up the core of a team like this.

So Bradford has an injury history.  So did Peterson.  So Casey has a few shortcomings. He knows how to win and let's face it - if it was Tom Brady in his prime instead of Keenum all year long, fans would be complaining about how he's not a franchise quarterback for some reason or another.

Two words for you Steve:

73 QBR

That was Cases QBR against the Saints and Eagles. Two of the best teams in the NFC when the stakes got the highest. 

He's certainly better than much of the schlock we've had here over the years. But isn't this the perfect time to pause and look at all of our options? Including those outside of the Vikings org? 

And as far as those #3 WR's on the Vikings? It's quite possible that they really aren't that bad. Case imo was good at keeping his eyes downfield, and at being mobile, but not getting to the #3 guy or throwing guys open. 

Being nitpicky? Maybe. But (as other posters have pointed out) I'm glad the Vikings are taking their time on this one and not rushing into a decision like we saw them do in previous regimes. 

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"Steve" said: Keenum just gave us a 13 win NFC North Title and an entry into the NFC Championship as favorites.

We got there and had 1 WR with a fractured back, an OL that was beat, and for some reason we had a historically good defense that got broken down.  Maybe it was injuries, maybe it was a coaching problem, maybe it was a little bit of both.

Regardless...  we have a guy that just proved he can win.  The Vikings had far from an easy schedule this year.  It was tough teams all the way through the season and tough draws in the playoffs.

You don't throw that away.  You give that guy a contract.  Bradford looked amazing when healthy.  Teddy has shown promise.  Both of those guys deserve a shot to compete, but neither should be guaranteed anything other than a chance to compete.  Looking outside the team when you have that kind of a roster is a bad move.  See what can be negotiated as far as contracts and if you are a man short in the end, see what else is out there.

The team should be focused on sealing up depth on the roster.  When Thielen was not 100%, it would have been nice if Treadwell could have stepped up.  It didn't happen.  We need a WR with the potential to do it.  The OL didn't protect Bradford and Keenum's escape ability was evident throughout the season.  The team should be looking at upgrading the OL.  Cornerbacks that can handle man coverage are always a need.  This year is no different.  We get the best we can afford.   Pass rushing depth is a luxury that should be looked at.  Run stoppers should be nabbed if they are available.

Let's not create an imaginary problem at QB and spend another decade twirling through a bunch of maybes.  Just because we had two capable QBs on the roster this year doesn't mean that any QB available could have done what Keenum did.  Does Thielen become the WR he is with someone else at QB?  Nobody knows for sure.  What we do know is that he works well with Bradford and Keenum both.  Same with Diggs.  Those guys aren't big names that we recruited as FAs.  We grew them in MN.  All the chemistry the team has works.  Little tweaks and a little depth are what we need.  You don't blow up the core of a team like this.

So Bradford has an injury history.  So did Peterson.  So Casey has a few shortcomings. He knows how to win and let's face it - if it was Tom Brady in his prime instead of Keenum all year long, fans would be complaining about how he's not a franchise quarterback for some reason or another.

Being nitpicky? Maybe. But (as other posters have pointed out) I'm glad the Vikings are taking their time on this one and not rushing into a decision like we saw them do in previous regimes. 

lamar Jackson? huge arm, accurate, mobile... a little of all the qbs? haha. I'm just really confused as to where this is going. we have the team to win, we need to figure it out ASAP.

Love you Nep, but Jackson makes Cam Newton look accurate. Floats a lot of throws by not setting his feet. Some guys figure that out, others don't.

Polian wouldn't even draft him to play QB. Thinks he could be a WR ala Pryor.

Lamar Jackson throws the ball a lot better than people give him credit for and operated a tough offense at Louisville. He'll make boneheaded decisions with the ball (e.g. bowl game) but its not due to his inability to be a potential NFL QB.

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Lamar Jackson throws the ball a lot better than people give him credit for and operated a tough offense at Louisville. He'll make boneheaded decisions with the ball (e.g. bowl game) but its not due to his inability to be a potential NFL QB.

Yeah,.gonna throw this out there early. LJ won't make it in the League long as a QB.

This coming from the guy who saw him crush a talented, though grossly underperforming and poorly coached FSU team.

I fear that loyalty to Keenum is going to cloud the decision-making process around QB. He had an unexpectedly good/great season, but a lot of factors indicate he will not likely duplicate it. He had Shurmur coaching wonderfully (to earn a HC job), a lot of motivation from competing with Bradford and then Bridgewater to keep his starting job, and being on the "first look" the league had of him in this offense. All of those will change next year. Math says 2017 was anomalous and likely to be remembered as the best season of Keenum's career.
But Zimmer and Spielman might feel the same as many fans do - Keenum SAVED the 2017 season. Look back to October 9: barely beat the lowly Bears, record is 3-2, Dalvin Cook lost for the year and Bradford going to IR. Can anyone honestly say they thought the Vikings would win 10 more regular-season games?? I personally doubted they would win another 5 with Keenum starting.
I would get criticized - fairly - if I went further to say that Keenum might have saved Spielman's job. It's probably a stretch, but he would be under some heat if this team had rolled to 7-9 in the year Aaron Rodgers was out. I'm damn sure there would be a LOT more talk about what a disaster his trade for Sam Bradford ultimately turned out to be - but 14-4 covers up a lot of issues.
Like everyone, I hope the FO picks the right QB, but I fear they will just pick the one who had the best 2017.

@"Jor-El" said: Like everyone, I hope the FO picks the right QB, but I fear they will just pick the one who had the best 2017.

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"Jor-El" said: Like everyone, I hope the FO picks the right QB, but I fear they will just pick the one who had the best 2017.

There is nothing that says the two have to be mutually exclusive.

@"medaille" said:

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"Jor-El" said: Like everyone, I hope the FO picks the right QB, but I fear they will just pick the one who had the best 2017.

There is nothing that says the two have to be mutually exclusive.

I don't think his comment is implying that Case sucks, but rather that the front office will feel pressured into picking Case just because he had a good year, instead of picking whoever they think is best.

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Lamar Jackson throws the ball a lot better than people give him credit for and operated a tough offense at Louisville. He'll make boneheaded decisions with the ball (e.g. bowl game) but its not due to his inability to be a potential NFL QB.

I like Lamar Jackson. He demonstrates the skill needed to be an NFL QB IMO. The kid can sling it and has confidence I like to see in a QB

@"Canthony" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Lamar Jackson throws the ball a lot better than people give him credit for and operated a tough offense at Louisville. He'll make boneheaded decisions with the ball (e.g. bowl game) but its not due to his inability to be a potential NFL QB.

I like Lamar Jackson. He demonstrates the skill needed to be an NFL QB IMO. The kid can sling it and has confidence I like to see in a QB

@"TBro" said:

@"Canthony" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Lamar Jackson throws the ball a lot better than people give him credit for and operated a tough offense at Louisville. He'll make boneheaded decisions with the ball (e.g. bowl game) but its not due to his inability to be a potential NFL QB.

I like Lamar Jackson. He demonstrates the skill needed to be an NFL QB IMO. The kid can sling it and has confidence I like to see in a QB

I've seen some mocks with him going as high as number 6 to the Jets. I think he definitely has more arm talent then Teddy, and his running ability is scary good, but I would worry about his skinny body holding up in the NFL because he is doing most of the running in Louisville's RPO offense. Cam is a lot bigger and has taken a pounding which I think has impacted his overall effectiveness. Can Lamar be effective as mainly a passer and an occasional scrambler?