Keenum

@"pumpf" said: I'm certainly not blaming Case for the loss.  But I don't believe that he could've "won" that game for us.  I do believe that a QB like Brees, Rodgers, etc could.  That's not a knock on Case as much as it is a statement (opinion) of reality.  He is what he is; and I think that he is a very good backup QB.  I don't think he's the guy to lead us to a Super Bowl... but I suppose he could manage the offense to a Super Bowl win, if the Defense and Special teams carried the team.  But the defense that I saw on Sunday wasn't the kind that was good enough to carry the whole team (like Baltimore's did... or, more recently, Denver's).

I don't think anyone truly believed that Case could carry a team on his back and lead a comeback like that. He was good enough to win with this defense though.
I believe our defense was very beat up and just trying to get through the season. That foot injury for Griff really hurt our pass rush game. Rhodes wouldn't have been playing if it weren't for the playoff run IMO and you could see that against the Eagles.
A lot of great things came about this year. A lot to be happy about. Now lets find the right QB to drive the ship and it will be SB for us in 2018.

I'm not going to pile on Keenum, as he had a good year.  The signs were there that he would falter in the playoffs and he did (2nd worse passer rating in the playoffs, most turnovers...).

I will say to those that don't want to put any blame on the QB, the Jaguars had the 2nd ranked defense (if you're into rankings) and won a shootout on the road against the Steelers with Blake Bortles.  Bortles actually played pretty well in the playoffs.  Crazy.

As to Keenum for next year, I don't think Keenum should be signed to be the unquestionably starter and I'm not sure if he would be alright with that when there may be other offers (I don't think Keenum is going to be the hot commodity that some assume).  I'm pretty sure we've seen Keenum's peak and it was poor in the playoffs and there are other options for the Vikings.

I would go with Bridgewater, he is younger (only 15 months older than Sloter, by the way, the "developmental" QB) and was fundamentally sound enough at 22 years old to allow the Vikings to win the division in 2015 while learning how to play in the NFL.  This, of course, is dependent on the knee which sounds good to go.

Go big and go after Brees for $30-$32mm, chances are low you'd land him, but RS has to make that call.

After that my choices are:

Smith
Cousins
Bridgewater (only if healthy) 

@"purplefaithful" said: Go big and go after Brees for $30-$32mm, chances are low you'd land him, but RS has to make that call.

After that my choices are:

Smith
Cousins
Bridgewater (only if healthy) 

I would go hard for Brees too. I doubt he goes anywhere though. My first choice is Smith as well.

I think there's zero chance Minnesota gets Brees. Why would he change teams? He's got a great chance to win it all right now in New Orleans. He's made that place his and his family's home. Seems a goofy premise and fan/media pipe dreams. 

@"StickyBun" said: I think there's zero chance Minnesota gets Brees. Why would he change teams? He's got a great chance to win it all right now in New Orleans. He's made that place his and his family's home. Seems a goofy premise and fan/media pipe dreams. 

I agree its a pipe dream. Its still a dream though lol

Keenum just gave us a 13 win NFC North Title and an entry into the NFC Championship as favorites.

We got there and had 1 WR with a fractured back, an OL that was beat, and for some reason we had a historically good defense that got broken down.  Maybe it was injuries, maybe it was a coaching problem, maybe it was a little bit of both.

Regardless...  we have a guy that just proved he can win.  The Vikings had far from an easy schedule this year.  It was tough teams all the way through the season and tough draws in the playoffs.

You don't throw that away.  You give that guy a contract.  Bradford looked amazing when healthy.  Teddy has shown promise.  Both of those guys deserve a shot to compete, but neither should be guaranteed anything other than a chance to compete.  Looking outside the team when you have that kind of a roster is a bad move.  See what can be negotiated as far as contracts and if you are a man short in the end, see what else is out there.

The team should be focused on sealing up depth on the roster.  When Thielen was not 100%, it would have been nice if Treadwell could have stepped up.  It didn't happen.  We need a WR with the potential to do it.  The OL didn't protect Bradford and Keenum's escape ability was evident throughout the season.  The team should be looking at upgrading the OL.  Cornerbacks that can handle man coverage are always a need.  This year is no different.  We get the best we can afford.   Pass rushing depth is a luxury that should be looked at.  Run stoppers should be nabbed if they are available.

Let's not create an imaginary problem at QB and spend another decade twirling through a bunch of maybes.  Just because we had two capable QBs on the roster this year doesn't mean that any QB available could have done what Keenum did.  Does Thielen become the WR he is with someone else at QB?  Nobody knows for sure.  What we do know is that he works well with Bradford and Keenum both.  Same with Diggs.  Those guys aren't big names that we recruited as FAs.  We grew them in MN.  All the chemistry the team has works.  Little tweaks and a little depth are what we need.  You don't blow up the core of a team like this.

So Bradford has an injury history.  So did Peterson.  So Casey has a few shortcomings. He knows how to win and let's face it - if it was Tom Brady in his prime instead of Keenum all year long, fans would be complaining about how he's not a franchise quarterback for some reason or another.

@"StickyBun" said: I think there's zero chance Minnesota gets Brees. Why would he change teams? He's got a great chance to win it all right now in New Orleans. He's made that place his and his family's home. Seems a goofy premise and fan/media pipe dreams. 

@"Steve" said: Keenum just gave us a 13 win NFC North Title and an entry into the NFC Championship as favorites.

We got there and had 1 WR with a fractured back, an OL that was beat, and for some reason we had a historically good defense that got broken down.  Maybe it was injuries, maybe it was a coaching problem, maybe it was a little bit of both.

Regardless...  we have a guy that just proved he can win.  The Vikings had far from an easy schedule this year.  It was tough teams all the way through the season and tough draws in the playoffs.

You don't throw that away.  You give that guy a contract.  Bradford looked amazing when healthy.  Teddy has shown promise.  Both of those guys deserve a shot to compete, but neither should be guaranteed anything other than a chance to compete.  Looking outside the team when you have that kind of a roster is a bad move.  See what can be negotiated as far as contracts and if you are a man short in the end, see what else is out there.

The team should be focused on sealing up depth on the roster.  When Thielen was not 100%, it would have been nice if Treadwell could have stepped up.  It didn't happen.  We need a WR with the potential to do it.  The OL didn't protect Bradford and Keenum's escape ability was evident throughout the season.  The team should be looking at upgrading the OL.  Cornerbacks that can handle man coverage are always a need.  This year is no different.  We get the best we can afford.   Pass rushing depth is a luxury that should be looked at.  Run stoppers should be nabbed if they are available.

Let's not create an imaginary problem at QB and spend another decade twirling through a bunch of maybes.  Just because we had two capable QBs on the roster this year doesn't mean that any QB available could have done what Keenum did.  Does Thielen become the WR he is with someone else at QB?  Nobody knows for sure.  What we do know is that he works well with Bradford and Keenum both.  Same with Diggs.  Those guys aren't big names that we recruited as FAs.  We grew them in MN.  All the chemistry the team has works.  Little tweaks and a little depth are what we need.  You don't blow up the core of a team like this.

So Bradford has an injury history.  So did Peterson.  So Casey has a few shortcomings. He knows how to win and let's face it - if it was Tom Brady in his prime instead of Keenum all year long, fans would be complaining about how he's not a franchise quarterback for some reason or another.

73 QBR

That was Cases QBR against the Saints and Eagles. Two of the best teams in the NFC when the stakes got the highest. 

He's certainly better than much of the schlock we've had here over the years. But isn't this the perfect time to pause and look at all of our options? Including those outside of the Vikings org? 

And as far as those #3 WR's on the Vikings? It's quite possible that they really aren't that bad. Case imo was good at keeping his eyes downfield, and at being mobile, but not getting to the #3 guy or throwing guys open. 

Being nitpicky? Maybe. But (as other posters have pointed out) I'm glad the Vikings are taking their time on this one and not rushing into a decision like we saw them do in previous regimes. 

This topic is going to be beaten like a broken drum until the beginning of March, isn't it? 

There are so many variables that are going to go into this QB decision that its not worth stressing out about it right now. For starters Zimmer needs to name an O-coordinator. That person is going to have a say in who is their QB. Obviously they won't make the final decision, but they deserve a voice at the table. I doubt any new OC is going to bring in a vastly different philosophy so that likely isn't a factor.

The overall off-season plan is also going to be a major consideration as well. This team has more holes than the QB position and if the Vikings want to spend money addressing those it may end up limiting the overall $ and term they can offer. Cap space isn't going to necessarily be an issue, but you need to consider future cap obligations and the ability to retain your own talent. If the Vikings end up wanting to set aside $30M for a QB then anything is really on the table. 

Lastly you have to see your external options. Its easy to talk about Brees, Cousins, Smith, Taylor, etc... At this point it is way to early to know who is going to be available. 

Take a few days off guys. There are so many factors that are going to go into this in addition to how good is Keenum? How good is Keenum compared to Bridgewater, etc...  

@"Ilovebigtd's" said: teddy is gonna be under center week 1

We get your stance already

@"Ilovebigtd's" said: teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap. 

cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.

I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Ilovebigtd's" said: teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap. 

cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.

I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.

@"Geoff Nichols" said: This topic is going to be beaten like a broken drum until the beginning of March, isn't it? 

There are so many variables that are going to go into this QB decision that its not worth stressing out about it right now. For starters Zimmer needs to name an O-coordinator. That person is going to have a say in who is their QB. Obviously they won't make the final decision, but they deserve a voice at the table. I doubt any new OC is going to bring in a vastly different philosophy so that likely isn't a factor.

The overall off-season plan is also going to be a major consideration as well. This team has more holes than the QB position and if the Vikings want to spend money addressing those it may end up limiting the overall $ and term they can offer. Cap space isn't going to necessarily be an issue, but you need to consider future cap obligations and the ability to retain your own talent. If the Vikings end up wanting to set aside $30M for a QB then anything is really on the table. 

Lastly you have to see your external options. Its easy to talk about Brees, Cousins, Smith, Taylor, etc... At this point it is way to early to know who is going to be available. 

Take a few days off guys. There are so many factors that are going to go into this in addition to how good is Keenum? How good is Keenum compared to Bridgewater, etc...  

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"Steve" said:

Two words for you Steve:

73 QBR

You know what keeps your windows open longer?  A franchise QB-that is how you should always approach that position, trying to find that.   I've been hearing the window is only x years as long as I can remember but the only extended period of no success was about 89-92 and 2010 to 2014.  

If you draft well, are smart with the cap, you will always be competitive, if you find a top 10 QB you'll always have a post season shot.  As for SB you have to be in it to win it.  Draft to maintain/improve talent and depth and never stop looking for a top QB.

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Ilovebigtd's" said: teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap. 

cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.

I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.

I think its valuable you point out that the Vikings window is going to be open for less time than most think. The current roster as it stands today probably has 3 more chances at a SB before it needs to be restructured. But we've seen teams get lucky with strong draft classes as well that can extend championship windows for an indefinite amount of time. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Ilovebigtd's" said: teddy would be much more cheaper, the players love him, hes showed incredible poise for a young qb, and if any glimpse of the preseason shows where he was trending shows that he was ready to make that leap. 

cmon 20 million on CASE KEENUM?
we can sign teddy much more cheaper and focus on other positions. plus teddy has more upside. its a risk i know but we’re a young team its not like 09 when we had a 1 maybe 2 year window.

I agree with a lot of your thoughts and don't think we should sign Keenum to a big contract. Even if the FO decides he is the best QB option, I think a Mike Glennon-level contact (max of $15M/season, 3 years with an option to get out with modest dead cap after one year) is all we need to offer. IMO no other team would outbid us.
But I disagree about having a long window. Yes, better than 2009, when the window was probably measured in months. But expecting to contend for 5 more years (long enough to develop a QB) is unrealistic. Within a few years, we will lose some players to free agency and/or suffer career-changing injuries. Look at Seattle: just 3 years ago they were coming off two SB appearances with a roster young everywhere except RB (easiest to draft). This year they missed the playoffs and were talking about changing coaches. NFL "windows" last 4-5 years and we are probably 2 years into the prime of our core of defensive players.
So if giving the starting job to Bridgewater is a "let's give him a couple seasons to see if he can get his career back on track" move...No Thanks! If the Vikings pick Teddy, our coaches had better be convinced he is already back to what he showed in preseason 2016.

I think its valuable you point out that the Vikings window is going to be open for less time than most think. The current roster as it stands today probably has 3 more chances at a SB before it needs to be restructured. But we've seen teams get lucky with strong draft classes as well that can extend championship windows for an indefinite amount of time. 

Extending windows is all about drafting well in the late rounds. The success of the '15 and '17 classes should give us a little bigger window than what is typically expected. If we can draft well again in '18, we can take it even further. 

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: I would say Case is partially to blame, but it isn't all on him. The offensive line didn't do him any favors tonight, but he missed throws too. Both Bridgewater/Bradford would have performed poorly with such little time. I do think this gives you some hesitation before you tag him for $23M though. You have the defense and skill players, do you risk it for $23M on Keenum or call all in on a more proven commodity (Brees/Cousins). 

Worst situation for any of qb's was exactly what happened. To fall behind and get one dimensional. Against that D, on the road, on grass.

Brees? Hell yah, but I don't see him leaving that town or franchise. I know they've got some cap issues and players to reconcile with but the Saints (imo) have a very bright future and strong, young nucleus. Lordy I am tired of the qb questions that have plagued this franchise since Pepp went down in 05. UGH 

Geoff, I'm starting to wonder if that vaunted Viking D is really schematically that good? They've looked pretty vulnerable as of late. Not sure how much of this to lay at the feet of Zimm/Edwards vs Players? Maybe it's not an either or thing...And someone will surely call me out for questioning them given the statistics they put on the board this year. 

I think that is a fair question. I think you saw a little bit tonight how the Vikings D is superbly talented but really relies on good play calling. You can look back in previous threads and this has really been my gripe for 2 years now. When called correctly the Vikings play incredibly well and allow next to nothing. But when they get out of rhythm things go off the rails. 

Last year I called it a "lack of swag" and I still believe that is true. Being able to play off the script is key and what makes a good defense great. Look at what killed them tonight, broken plays. At that point you need to ad lib and go with your instincts. At some point I do think you can coach the instincts out of players to religiously play the system. But, the system isn't designed for broken plays. 

Zimmer is one of the best defensive coaches in the league. But giving his player the reigns to play what they see could make a massive difference moving forward. 

@"A1Janitor" said: It wasn't Zimmer who didn't contain the run.  It was EG.

He is a little overrated imo.  As is Hunter.