Case being made...
Perfect passer rating so far. Not too shabby...
@"greediron" said:Hahaha...messed up.@"Norse" said: We are 7-2 and bench the starting QB....just to see what we have in Teddy. Only the Vikings ;) wrong. You don't bench Case to see what you have. You promote Teddy if he is the better QB.
@"Norse" said: We are 7-2 and bench the starting QB....just to see what we have in Teddy. Only the Vikings ;)Out of curiosity. .. how many loses do you give Case before you use Teddy?
Not that I think that it should be a win loss record decision
It would all depend...We know the Rams is going to be a close game win/loose.
I feel as long as Case is winning he deserves to start. Get Teddy some playing time so he can prove what he has. Looking good in practice in a controlled environment isn't really proving much. It's the games that count.
@"Norse" said: It would all depend...We know the Rams is going to be a close game win/loose. I feel as long as Case is winning he deserves to start. Get Teddy some playing time so he can prove what he has. Looking good in practice in a controlled environment isn't really proving much. It's the games that count.i would agree as long as its Case that is playing winning football. how many times during the Ponder era (and others) that the team is winning in spite of.... well some of those wins are more about the rest of the team IMO. I really only give Tampa, the Bears, and now the skins to Case... the rest of the games he did nothing to really win the games, he wasnt hurting the team as in turnovers, but not really being the reason for the wins, so "in spite of" is not the appropriate tag for Case, but it doesnt change the feeling that this offense will need to be more like first half sunday to be competitive the rest of the way.
now maybe Teddy wont be any better, but if the coaches say he is the better option based on the information they have, how can we not trust them? yes practice leaves questions to be answered, but thats what the games are for. Its not like we are cutting Case to give Teddy a chance. I also dont buy the BS about the change messing up any chemistry, if the team is that weak mentally that a QB switch would set them off, then we arent as close to being a contender as we hope.
This is a bad situation for Teddy, too. What if Zim does put him in and we go on a losing streak? Anyone thought of that? Case should be the QB for the rest of the year barring a catastrophic meltdown, IMO.
@"NorseGods" said: This is a bad situation for Teddy, too. What if Zim does put him in and we go on a losing streak? Anyone thought of that? Case should be the QB for the rest of the year barring a catastrophic meltdown, IMO.that may be bad for Teddy and this years team, but it will be good for the teams future to know that Teddy is not a viable franchise guy for next year and beyond.
as far as a losing streak, it could very easily happen to Case as well. eyes wide open, the unknowns are scary, but not insurmountable and by staying with the status quo we have no more guarantees for the future than we would by making a change. its not like a change to Teddy would have to be permanent. I am looking past the end result and trying to look at the game at a more positional level.
if this was any other position besides QB... would this even be a discussion regarding leaving an average player in vs taking a chance with on one with possibly better overall skills?
either way the coaches decide they want to go I am good, but I hope to see better QB play as the opponents get tougher.
@"Geoff Nichols" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"comet52" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:Practice? Where you don't get hit or face an actual opponent?@"comet52" said: The fanbase is hungry and eager for the team to mess up a good thing. Forcing TB onto the field will be the end of this good season. how is it "forcing" if he is out performing Case in practice? isnt that just putting the best player on the field? If Teddy isnt looking markedly better than Case in practice why would they be considering starting him? I am sure they are not going to put an inferior player out there just because it feels good.It's the Vikings, I get that the franchise karma has always been to screw it up in some new, creative way. And this will be no different. There's no precedent that I can think of where an NFL team with a good record putting up good numbers offensively just decided one day to yank the qb in favor of a guy who hadn't seen the field in two years, whose leg/knee remained a question mark and who was statistically no better or arguably inferior to the guy who was playing the position and leading them to that good record. There is no place outside of Viking fandom where TB holds some mythical legendary status, and the average NFL observer would tell the deluded Viking TB fans they are nuts on this matter. I realize this doesn't make any difference to said fans.
We have an enormous contingent of fans offering a plethora of subjective rationales about TB which apparently mean we should stick to Viking karma and screw this up. You may get your wish, fellows!
yep practice... remember Case isnt getting hit or facing a real opponent in practice either... if they see a much better player in Teddy in that environment, knowing how much poise Teddy has shown in the past... they have a pretty good idea of what they will be getting when the lights come on... likely much better than any fans wouldnt you think?I couldnt make this decision myself, thats why I flip on this subject about every 5 minutes, but I trust that if/when its made it will be the best thing for the team or Zim wouldnt be doing it.
You bring up my one fear with Bridgewater at this point, contact. In practice they'll run D-lineman at you to work on eluding pass rush and maneuvering the pocket. But you always know in the back of your head that nobody is actually going to hit you and nobody is going to be laying on the ground near your feet.There is still a chance that Teddy completely implodes when having to navigate a pocket with people near his feet. That always will be the biggest mental hurdle for a QB coming off a knee injury. Taking a hit you see isn't so much the issue, but the body's natural reaction to being grabbed around the ankle or getting the knee brushed in the pocket causes some players to do funny things.
That is definitely a concern, and one that will be gnawing at the back of my head every time Teddy drops back. But one caveat is that Teddy was not hurt by contact and so that demon may not be as clear and present as it would be for others. I'm hoping the coaching staff is preparing Bridgewater by giving him some controlled contact, knocking him down, etc.
Teddy Bridgewater in 2015 was the 22nd rated passer with an 88.7 rating
Case Keenum is sitting at the 22nd rating with a 92.6 rating.
The idea that there is any gap between ability between these two QB's lies in personal bias.
@"Mike Olson" said: Teddy Bridgewater in 2015 was the 22nd rated passer with an 88.7 ratingCase Keenum is sitting at the 22nd rating with a 92.6 rating.
The idea that there is any gap between ability between these two QB's lies in personal bias.
Why? Because a different offense with much worse o-line and WRs makes the perfect comparison?
The gap in ability is simply in the mind. Teddy's ability to read defenses and go through progressions in year 2 was ahead of the veteran backup Keenum.
@"greediron" said:@"Mike Olson" said: Teddy Bridgewater in 2015 was the 22nd rated passer with an 88.7 ratingCase Keenum is sitting at the 22nd rating with a 92.6 rating.
The idea that there is any gap between ability between these two QB's lies in personal bias.
Why? Because a different offense with much worse o-line and WRs makes the perfect comparison?The gap in ability is simply in the mind. Teddy's ability to read defenses and go through progressions in year 2 was ahead of the veteran backup Keenum.
Then how come it took him until the 4th quarter in MANY games to get going?There is this idea that Teddy Bridgewater (and I am not saying this is you) is going to pick up where he left off - and frankly where he left off wasn't THAT GOOD, it was ok but certainly NOT great at all - we simply do not know that. At all.
@"Mike Olson" said:@"greediron" said:@"Mike Olson" said: Teddy Bridgewater in 2015 was the 22nd rated passer with an 88.7 ratingCase Keenum is sitting at the 22nd rating with a 92.6 rating.
The idea that there is any gap between ability between these two QB's lies in personal bias.
Why? Because a different offense with much worse o-line and WRs makes the perfect comparison?The gap in ability is simply in the mind. Teddy's ability to read defenses and go through progressions in year 2 was ahead of the veteran backup Keenum.
Then how come it took him until the 4th quarter in MANY games to get going?There is this idea that Teddy Bridgewater (and I am not saying this is you) is going to pick up where he left off - and frankly where he left off wasn't THAT GOOD, it was ok but certainly NOT great at all - we simply do not know that. At all.
was the 4th quarter on Teddy or on Norv? I think it was more about the early game conservative ass play calling myself. a line that cant block and putting a guy in 3rd and a country mile by predictably running on 1st and often 2nd downs certainly does no QB any favors and certainly not ones in the second year of the pros.
@"Mike Olson" said: Teddy Bridgewater in 2015 was the 22nd rated passer with an 88.7 ratingCase Keenum is sitting at the 22nd rating with a 92.6 rating.
The idea that there is any gap between ability between these two QB's lies in personal bias.
Nope. You have it sorted by yards. If you sort by rating, and take out QBs that have thrown less than 50 passes (Bradford, Foles, Hoyer, etc.), Keenum is sitting at 14th.
If you do the same for 2015, Bridgewater is 23rd in QB rating.
ESPN QBR:
Teddy Bridgewater 2015: 57.7 (17th)
Case Keenum 2017: 72.6 (3rd)
@"SFVikingFan" said: ESPN QBR:Teddy Bridgewater 2015: 57.7 (17th)
Case Keenum 2017: 72.6 (3rd)
More Apples and Oranges.
How on God's Green and Verdant Earth can so many of you continue to compare Teddy with no O-Line, WRs and Norv's antiquated system that was so 1st Down run oriented to the situation Case is in with a really good O-Line, the best duo of WRs in the League and an OC who will call any play at any time?
The fact is you can't compare. Not until we see Teddy Start a few games.
And if many of you get your wish and the team rides Case to the Playoffs then what? Make Keenum the Franchise QB? Resign Teddy with no body of work to judge his recovery on?
Wouldn't it be oh so Minnesota for Case to get the team to rhe NFCCG, get torched by the Eagles, get a long-term deal and turn out to be Wade Wilson.
@"SFVikingFan" said:@"Mike Olson" said: Teddy Bridgewater in 2015 was the 22nd rated passer with an 88.7 ratingCase Keenum is sitting at the 22nd rating with a 92.6 rating.
The idea that there is any gap between ability between these two QB's lies in personal bias.
Nope. You have it sorted by yards. If you sort by rating, and take out QBs that have thrown less than 50 passes (Bradford, Foles, Hoyer, etc.), Keenum is sitting at 14th.If you do the same for 2015, Bridgewater is 23rd in QB rating.
Right but the rating is all the way over on the right hand side.
@"FSUVike" said:@"SFVikingFan" said: ESPN QBR:Teddy Bridgewater 2015: 57.7 (17th)
Case Keenum 2017: 72.6 (3rd)
More Apples and Oranges.How on God's Green and Verdant Earth can so many of you continue to compare Teddy with no O-Line, WRs and Norv's antiquated system that was so 1st Down run oriented to the situation Case is in with a really good O-Line, the best duo of WRs in the League and an OC who will call any play at any time?
The fact is you can't compare. Not until we see Teddy Start a few games.
And if many of you get your wish and the team rides Case to the Playoffs then what? Make Keenum the Franchise QB? Resign Teddy with no body of work to judge his recovery on?
Wouldn't it be oh so Minnesota for Case to get the team to rhe NFCCG, get torched by the Eagles, get a long-term deal and turn out to be Wade Wilson.
Because that is all you CAN compare. Trying to do anything more than that is pure speculation. How much do you weight the lack of or the existence of a good/bad oline? How much of that oline play do you attribute to the QB play itself?
@"Mike Olson" said:@"SFVikingFan" said:@"Mike Olson" said: Teddy Bridgewater in 2015 was the 22nd rated passer with an 88.7 ratingCase Keenum is sitting at the 22nd rating with a 92.6 rating.
The idea that there is any gap between ability between these two QB's lies in personal bias.
Nope. You have it sorted by yards. If you sort by rating, and take out QBs that have thrown less than 50 passes (Bradford, Foles, Hoyer, etc.), Keenum is sitting at 14th.If you do the same for 2015, Bridgewater is 23rd in QB rating.
Right but the rating is all the way over on the right hand side.
I know, but because the lists were sorted by yards, the QBs were both 22nd in yards, not rating. You have to sort by rating to see how they rank in that category.
)@"Mike Olson" said:@"FSUVike" said:@"SFVikingFan" said: ESPN QBR:Teddy Bridgewater 2015: 57.7 (17th)
Case Keenum 2017: 72.6 (3rd)
More Apples and Oranges.How on God's Green and Verdant Earth can so many of you continue to compare Teddy with no O-Line, WRs and Norv's antiquated system that was so 1st Down run oriented to the situation Case is in with a really good O-Line, the best duo of WRs in the League and an OC who will call any play at any time?
The fact is you can't compare. Not until we see Teddy Start a few games.
And if many of you get your wish and the team rides Case to the Playoffs then what? Make Keenum the Franchise QB? Resign Teddy with no body of work to judge his recovery on?
Wouldn't it be oh so Minnesota for Case to get the team to rhe NFCCG, get torched by the Eagles, get a long-term deal and turn out to be Wade Wilson.
Because that is all you CAN compare. Trying to do anything more than that is pure speculation. How much do you weight the lack of or the existence of a good/bad oline? How much of that oline play do you attribute to the QB play itself?
You can Project, Mike. Not compare two completely different situations. I can Project that Case, who inarguably makes a number of pre-snap decisions where he's going to throw the ball and has a tendency to throw floaters would likely have fared worse in Norv's system than Teddy. In large part because Wallace and Johnson wouldn't make contested catches and Case wouldn't have had nearly as much time to throw despite his movement skills.And you can Project that a healthy Teddy (both body & mind) would likely fare better with this team and system for the same reasons. More time to throw equals more time to read through progressions and find the best option instead of throwing into coverage, which Keenum does too much and won't get away with forever.
But to play Devil's Advocate, maybe Teddy comes in and doesn't trust AT and Diggs enough to throw it to them when they're covered and let them make a play.
You'll never know if the team rides Case the rest of the way. And unless Keenum loses in the Playoffs due to the Defense or Special Teams or TOs that he had nothing to do with then how does the FO decide which guy to keep and at what price?
Look, if we had a Crystal Ball that said both Keenum and Bridgewater would be back with the Vikings next season on reasonable deals and perfectly fine with a earnest Training Camp contest to determine who Starts and who is the backup then you ride Case as long as he's hot.
But I give that scenario about a 4% chance of happening. More likely is Teddy doesn't get enough snaps to show what he's got and both QBs go into the offseason looking for Starter money.
I'd be willing to bet that as we fans debate this on message boards around the world, at this time Case is studying the game plan for the Rams game and Teddy is simultaneously studying the gameplan for the Detroit game.
We go into both games with a well rested quarterback and a competent backup QB
@"Hidalgo" said: I'd be willing to bet that as we fans debate this on message boards around the world, at this time Case is studying the game plan for the Rams game and Teddy is simultaneously studying the gameplan for the Detroit game. We go into both games with a well rested quarterback and a competent backup QBI think this is close to the truth...Depends on Rams game outcome. God forbid injury or Case lites it up @ USB.
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