Free Agency

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"smleh" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"Havoc1649" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"HappyViking" said:

@"supafreak84" said: Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend. 

But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...

Just curious, what's your view of the draft two years ago when the Vikes traded back with both the Lions and Packers?  How about the draft picks of Cine and Booth, and your overall feelings of Kwesi?  I'm not sure anyone has heard your view points on these topics yet.  B)

It's just pointing out the contrast between the two philosophies and we have two organizations within the same division who hit the reset buttons on new front offices at the same time, so you can make a valid comparison. If you are asking me today, which organization did things the wisest and which situation and resources I'd rather have...it would be the Bears all day long. I say this knowing Kwesi has all but been saddled with the competitive mandates of the Wilfs, so you can't blame him completely 

Because blowing it up is the key to winning Super Bowls right? Remind me, when did the Chiefs and 49ers do that to have a championship team? 

We went 13-4 year one. Our defense got better throughout this year and had Cousins not been injured, we were a SuperBowl contender. We beat the 49ers and were right there with the Chiefs - and this was before our defense improved. 

The fact is we carried $46,000,000+ in dead cap this year - which is a rebuild of finances. Even with that, we had a good chance with a healthy Cousins. 

If the front office is smart with the money, we can be competitive for a title this year if Cousins is back to himself. The defense is improving. The offense will be little different and has been effective for years. I can’t imagine another year with the same offensive system (that has already won a title) is going to hurt. 

Respectfully, doing it the Bears way sounds great now, but they have to hit on nearly every pick to turn it around. That was starting with a team that had already taken 2 top 10 QB’s (pick 10 & 2) in the past couple of years prior to the new leadership. Now they’ll likely go top 10 QB again and pray he’s the answer to a Super Bowl before they are fired. Picks are always awesome and so so smart until they don’t pan out. 

I’ll take competitive every year and I have little time for a coach or GM not focused on the same thing. If they are good woth the picks they already have, there should never be a need for such a plan.

The Chiefs hit on Mahomes, and the 49ers haven't had to because Mr Irrelevant has masked their total failure in Trey Lance. Both of those teams have been extremely fortunate and it's not close to the situation the Vikings have been in the last few years, which has been mediocrity and fiddle fucking around on short term deals with Cousins because although they would have liked to move in a different direction, they haven't had any better options. I don't care about 13-4 with a record number of single score victories and losing at home to the Giants on wild card weekend. The reality is our record over the last four seasons is 35-32 with the one playoff appearance losing to the Giants. Thats the definition of mediocrity, so don't tell me what we've been doing has been working while the other teams in the division have all torn it down and rebuilt their rosters with smart trades and smart drafting. I still contend we might have been better off to rebuild this thing when the new front office took over two years ago instead of treading water going nowhere, but oh no....not the Wilfs. Now here we sit with the other teams in the division lapping us, no long term answer at quarterback, and a roster that needs upgrades along both lines, zero running game, the highest paid TE in the league who will miss half of next season on IR and perhaps missing our best player on defense (Hunter). This front office needs to pull their heads out of their asses and make some real moves this offseason and I don't mean Lewis Cine type moves either. 

How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously. 

But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it. 

When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. It’s a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen. 

So Geoff, are you saying that they will pick a qb in round one for sure if Kirk isn’t back?

I don't think they'd pick a QB just for the point of picking a QB. It would need to be someone they believe in. Obviously I think it would increase the odds. But there is a pathway where they run it back with a stop-gap QB or trade for someone not publicly available. 

@"CFIAvike" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"smleh" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"Havoc1649" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"HappyViking" said:

@"supafreak84" said: Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend. 

But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...

Just curious, what's your view of the draft two years ago when the Vikes traded back with both the Lions and Packers?  How about the draft picks of Cine and Booth, and your overall feelings of Kwesi?  I'm not sure anyone has heard your view points on these topics yet.  B)

It's just pointing out the contrast between the two philosophies and we have two organizations within the same division who hit the reset buttons on new front offices at the same time, so you can make a valid comparison. If you are asking me today, which organization did things the wisest and which situation and resources I'd rather have...it would be the Bears all day long. I say this knowing Kwesi has all but been saddled with the competitive mandates of the Wilfs, so you can't blame him completely 

Because blowing it up is the key to winning Super Bowls right? Remind me, when did the Chiefs and 49ers do that to have a championship team? 

We went 13-4 year one. Our defense got better throughout this year and had Cousins not been injured, we were a SuperBowl contender. We beat the 49ers and were right there with the Chiefs - and this was before our defense improved. 

The fact is we carried $46,000,000+ in dead cap this year - which is a rebuild of finances. Even with that, we had a good chance with a healthy Cousins. 

If the front office is smart with the money, we can be competitive for a title this year if Cousins is back to himself. The defense is improving. The offense will be little different and has been effective for years. I can’t imagine another year with the same offensive system (that has already won a title) is going to hurt. 

Respectfully, doing it the Bears way sounds great now, but they have to hit on nearly every pick to turn it around. That was starting with a team that had already taken 2 top 10 QB’s (pick 10 & 2) in the past couple of years prior to the new leadership. Now they’ll likely go top 10 QB again and pray he’s the answer to a Super Bowl before they are fired. Picks are always awesome and so so smart until they don’t pan out. 

I’ll take competitive every year and I have little time for a coach or GM not focused on the same thing. If they are good woth the picks they already have, there should never be a need for such a plan.

The Chiefs hit on Mahomes, and the 49ers haven't had to because Mr Irrelevant has masked their total failure in Trey Lance. Both of those teams have been extremely fortunate and it's not close to the situation the Vikings have been in the last few years, which has been mediocrity and fiddle fucking around on short term deals with Cousins because although they would have liked to move in a different direction, they haven't had any better options. I don't care about 13-4 with a record number of single score victories and losing at home to the Giants on wild card weekend. The reality is our record over the last four seasons is 35-32 with the one playoff appearance losing to the Giants. Thats the definition of mediocrity, so don't tell me what we've been doing has been working while the other teams in the division have all torn it down and rebuilt their rosters with smart trades and smart drafting. I still contend we might have been better off to rebuild this thing when the new front office took over two years ago instead of treading water going nowhere, but oh no....not the Wilfs. Now here we sit with the other teams in the division lapping us, no long term answer at quarterback, and a roster that needs upgrades along both lines, zero running game, the highest paid TE in the league who will miss half of next season on IR and perhaps missing our best player on defense (Hunter). This front office needs to pull their heads out of their asses and make some real moves this offseason and I don't mean Lewis Cine type moves either. 

How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously. 

But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it. 

When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. It’s a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen. 

So Geoff, are you saying that they will pick a qb in round one for sure if Kirk isn’t back?

I don't think they'd pick a QB just for the point of picking a QB. It would need to be someone they believe in. Obviously I think it would increase the odds. But there is a pathway where they run it back with a stop-gap QB or trade for someone not publicly available. 

Is this a hypothesis, or is there a real possible target?

I'm thinking of younger guys with upside;

- Mac Jones, pro bowl as a rookie, zero supporting cast, and is heading into four with his fourth different OC. Supposedly on his way out in New England

- Steelers have been linked to Justin Fields, if that happens, do they move Kenny Pickett?

- Commanders are all but assured of taking a QB. Sam Howell anyone?

- Is Kyler Murray available?

- Derek Carr had a bumpy first your in New Orleans. What happens with him and does he become available? 

Outside of Kyler Murray, not one of those QBs are worth a draft pick let alone picking up their remaining salary.  Derek Carr…. maybe but he’d have to take a huge paycut. The rest are worth league minimum

Does anyone else miss the “triangle of authority”?

@"medaille" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"JR44" said:

@"supafreak84" said: Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend. 

But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...

And with a great trade they will be taking one of the best QBs to come out in some time with the #1 pick, Poles has taken a lot grief, but the Bears are in really great shape to put together a really exciting young team.  

That's the big difference is there was a clear direction and a clear plan to rebuild that roster in Chicago. They took their lumps the last couple years to be in the position they are now, and that's an ascending team with a shit ton of options. They have a football man in place making the decisions and overseeing this rebuild. I would bet anybody that he took the Bears job over ours for these very reasons and not having to deal with the competitive mandates of ownership and we ended up with a analytics stooge with almost zero real football experience. Is what it is...

The Vikings also have a clear plan.  It's just the bears were shitty during the rebuild and the vikings were mediocre.  If their plan works, great.  If it doesn't, it just means they were shitty for a while.  I don't think there's any real evidence that would suggest that the Bears plan is really a good one, given they still haven't "ascended" to above .500. The best we can really say about the Bears is that they lucked into the Panthers being so bad that they got the #1 pick, but that hardly feels like a plan going as expected.

@"supafreak84" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"JR44" said:

@"supafreak84" said: Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend. 

But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...

And with a great trade they will be taking one of the best QBs to come out in some time with the #1 pick, Poles has taken a lot grief, but the Bears are in really great shape to put together a really exciting young team.  

That's the big difference is there was a clear direction and a clear plan to rebuild that roster in Chicago. They took their lumps the last couple years to be in the position they are now, and that's an ascending team with a shit ton of options. They have a football man in place making the decisions and overseeing this rebuild. I would bet anybody that he took the Bears job over ours for these very reasons and not having to deal with the competitive mandates of ownership and we ended up with a analytics stooge with almost zero real football experience. Is what it is...

The Vikings also have a clear plan.  It's just the bears were shitty during the rebuild and the vikings were mediocre.  If their plan works, great.  If it doesn't, it just means they were shitty for a while.  I don't think there's any real evidence that would suggest that the Bears plan is really a good one, given they still haven't "ascended" to above .500. The best we can really say about the Bears is that they lucked into the Panthers being so bad that they got the #1 pick, but that hardly feels like a plan going as expected.

Ryan Poles to ESPN;

"We're making strong progress," general manager Ryan Poles said in January. "We're doing it the right way. It's built on a solid foundation. It's not a house of cards."

@"supafreak84" said: "We're making strong progress," general manager Ryan Poles said in January. "We're doing it the right way. It's built on a solid foundation. It's not a house of cards."

Steve Martin had a joke about how to be a millionaire. First, get a million dollars ...

@"supafreak84" said:

@"CFIAvike" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"smleh" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"Havoc1649" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"HappyViking" said:

@"supafreak84" said: Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend. 

But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...

Just curious, what's your view of the draft two years ago when the Vikes traded back with both the Lions and Packers?  How about the draft picks of Cine and Booth, and your overall feelings of Kwesi?  I'm not sure anyone has heard your view points on these topics yet.  B)

I'm thinking of younger guys with upside;

- Mac Jones, pro bowl as a rookie, zero supporting cast, and is heading into four with his fourth different OC. Supposedly on his way out in New England

- Steelers have been linked to Justin Fields, if that happens, do they move Kenny Pickett?

- Commanders are all but assured of taking a QB. Sam Howell anyone?

- Is Kyler Murray available?

- Derek Carr had a bumpy first your in New Orleans. What happens with him and does he become available? 

@"supafreak84" said:

@"CFIAvike" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"smleh" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously. 

But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it. 

When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. It’s a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen. 

So Geoff, are you saying that they will pick a qb in round one for sure if Kirk isn’t back?

I don't think they'd pick a QB just for the point of picking a QB. It would need to be someone they believe in. Obviously I think it would increase the odds. But there is a pathway where they run it back with a stop-gap QB or trade for someone not publicly available. 

Is this a hypothesis, or is there a real possible target?

I'm thinking of younger guys with upside;

- Mac Jones, pro bowl as a rookie, zero supporting cast, and is heading into four with his fourth different OC. Supposedly on his way out in New England

- Steelers have been linked to Justin Fields, if that happens, do they move Kenny Pickett?

- Commanders are all but assured of taking a QB. Sam Howell anyone?

- Is Kyler Murray available?

- Derek Carr had a bumpy first your in New Orleans. What happens with him and does he become available? 

@"El_Padre" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"CFIAvike" said:

I'm thinking of younger guys with upside;

- Mac Jones, pro bowl as a rookie, zero supporting cast, and is heading into four with his fourth different OC. Supposedly on his way out in New England

- Steelers have been linked to Justin Fields, if that happens, do they move Kenny Pickett?

- Commanders are all but assured of taking a QB. Sam Howell anyone?

- Is Kyler Murray available?

- Derek Carr had a bumpy first your in New Orleans. What happens with him and does he become available? 

Call me crazy on this one....
Cards have 2 1st's this year, and everyone is thinking they take a WR with their first pick.  They don't pick again until the mid 20's I believe....
Do we send them 11 for their later pick and Kyler if one of the "tier 2" QB's fall? 

He hasn't exactly blown them away the last few seasons, but has shown that when he has weapons he can be decent.
Getting rid of his cap hit for them would be incentive to take this.  Plus they get to start over with a new star WR and QB combo.
We would get a QB with potential and a 1st to build around still this year.  The negative is obviously his cap situation and he is only "potential."

I'm not saying I'm for or against this.....

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"smleh" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"Havoc1649" said:

@"supafreak84" said:

@"HappyViking" said:

@"supafreak84" said: Bears cut Whitehair and Eddie Jackson today. Now sit at 70 million in available space to spend. 

But oooohhhhh, that "competitive rebuild"...

Just curious, what's your view of the draft two years ago when the Vikes traded back with both the Lions and Packers?  How about the draft picks of Cine and Booth, and your overall feelings of Kwesi?  I'm not sure anyone has heard your view points on these topics yet.  B)

It's just pointing out the contrast between the two philosophies and we have two organizations within the same division who hit the reset buttons on new front offices at the same time, so you can make a valid comparison. If you are asking me today, which organization did things the wisest and which situation and resources I'd rather have...it would be the Bears all day long. I say this knowing Kwesi has all but been saddled with the competitive mandates of the Wilfs, so you can't blame him completely 

Because blowing it up is the key to winning Super Bowls right? Remind me, when did the Chiefs and 49ers do that to have a championship team? 

We went 13-4 year one. Our defense got better throughout this year and had Cousins not been injured, we were a SuperBowl contender. We beat the 49ers and were right there with the Chiefs - and this was before our defense improved. 

The fact is we carried $46,000,000+ in dead cap this year - which is a rebuild of finances. Even with that, we had a good chance with a healthy Cousins. 

If the front office is smart with the money, we can be competitive for a title this year if Cousins is back to himself. The defense is improving. The offense will be little different and has been effective for years. I can’t imagine another year with the same offensive system (that has already won a title) is going to hurt. 

Respectfully, doing it the Bears way sounds great now, but they have to hit on nearly every pick to turn it around. That was starting with a team that had already taken 2 top 10 QB’s (pick 10 & 2) in the past couple of years prior to the new leadership. Now they’ll likely go top 10 QB again and pray he’s the answer to a Super Bowl before they are fired. Picks are always awesome and so so smart until they don’t pan out. 

I’ll take competitive every year and I have little time for a coach or GM not focused on the same thing. If they are good woth the picks they already have, there should never be a need for such a plan.

The Chiefs hit on Mahomes, and the 49ers haven't had to because Mr Irrelevant has masked their total failure in Trey Lance. Both of those teams have been extremely fortunate and it's not close to the situation the Vikings have been in the last few years, which has been mediocrity and fiddle fucking around on short term deals with Cousins because although they would have liked to move in a different direction, they haven't had any better options. I don't care about 13-4 with a record number of single score victories and losing at home to the Giants on wild card weekend. The reality is our record over the last four seasons is 35-32 with the one playoff appearance losing to the Giants. Thats the definition of mediocrity, so don't tell me what we've been doing has been working while the other teams in the division have all torn it down and rebuilt their rosters with smart trades and smart drafting. I still contend we might have been better off to rebuild this thing when the new front office took over two years ago instead of treading water going nowhere, but oh no....not the Wilfs. Now here we sit with the other teams in the division lapping us, no long term answer at quarterback, and a roster that needs upgrades along both lines, zero running game, the highest paid TE in the league who will miss half of next season on IR and perhaps missing our best player on defense (Hunter). This front office needs to pull their heads out of their asses and make some real moves this offseason and I don't mean Lewis Cine type moves either. 

How does Hockenson blowing out his knee indite the front office? Would it be ok if he wasn't one of the highest paid TEs in the league? Just giving you are hard time to be honest, don't take that too seriously. 

But I think the answer is somewhat in the middle between your take and Havoc's. There is something to be said about tearing it down to the ground. The risk in doing that is you are 100% reliant on your ability to draft and re-build culture. Ultimately it is easier said than done. On the flip side the "competitive rebuild" is tough since you're trying to ultimately turn things over through mediocrity. While that didn't show through on the field this past season, they actually have accomplished a "rebuild" without tearing it down. They just don't have a top 3-5 pick to show for it. 

When you rebuild you ultimately achieve two things at one. 1: High draft pick(s) and 2: Financial freedom. From there you need to fill your premium positions QB, WR, OTs, EDGE, CB, and DT. The Vikings don't possess #1 but do have #2 at this point. They can opt to re-sign Kirk or move up for a QB. If they move up they can draft and EDGE or CB early in the 1st. Flip it around and they trade up for a QB, you can likely sign an EDGE rusher and DT if you so choose. Then come 2025 you have even more money available. My take is, this is the off-season it all begins to either go up or down for this FO/coaching staff. It’s a different approach to roster rebuilding regardless of the Wilf's involvement/asks. But they aren't completely treading water either. Something is about to happen. 

So Geoff, are you saying that they will pick a qb in round one for sure if Kirk isn’t back?

I don't think they'd pick a QB just for the point of picking a QB. It would need to be someone they believe in. Obviously I think it would increase the odds. But there is a pathway where they run it back with a stop-gap QB or trade for someone not publicly available.