Quote: @1VikesFan said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ 1VikesFan said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ 1VikesFan said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ 1VikesFan said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ comet52 said:
@ JR44 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ JR44 said:
@ StickyBun said:
Yep. Some fans here don't see that it isn't a garden party in other places for the draft picks Kwesi 'f-d up' by NOT drafting. But again, don't let information and perspective get in the way of a good 'the GM sucks' rant.
I think you can look at any team's draft history and see similar hits and misses. Even the best GMs get it wrong more often than not. Even with the abundance of research and data there is no way to determine how someone's skills and sometimes even more importantly their mentality and emotional fortitude is going to carry over to the NFL level. We have a friend from college who completely struggled in college and is now one of the highest paid at ESPN. You never know, there are so many things out of a GMs control, but draft picks and players are capital and one of the things that GMs can control is to try to maximize the value of that capital and that is one area that I personally feel Kwesi has not done well in. I didn't expect him to be a great GM, I didn't see how he was qualified for the role and it has been what I expected. The TJ trade was brilliant and I think we have done an excellent job in some of the later rounds and in UDFA, so I think there is promise that he will improve all around as he moves forward in the role.
Qualified for the role? So how does a GM become one? Or a VP? They weren't born that way, someone decided when they are a step below that that their upside is to the level they are being brought in for. KAM's been on the job for just over a year and in charge of 2 Drafts.....we aren't going to wait and see how it pans out? Snap, knee jerk reactions are just so what some fans do. I find it goofy. Capital? LOL, you either hit on guys you pick or you don't. The most overrated part is the 'capital' because salary caps keep going UP. Honest to God, if I hear one more arm chair GM talk about 'value', I'm going to vomit.
Tell me how he was qualified and how he got the job over guys who actually worked in a personnel role. Show me any kind of personnel experience. Prior to coming here he worked in research and operations.
Also, why can't any of us express a negative view about Kwesi without being bashed and criticized ? Seems hypocritical. In my opinion, I think he was not the right hire and I am not a fan of what he has done here. That is my opinion, I admit it could be right or wrong, but am I not allowed to express it here on a message board which is why we are all here?
The traditional scout-->general manager NFL career track may be evolving to more of an analytics based overseer with strong input from the scouting department.
And Rick forced various picks over the objections of his scouts--Christian Ponder for one. The Vikings found themselves with a coach and g.m. who both thought they were unquestionable, fought with each other for control, and ended up fired as a result.
So it's not surprising they tried a new direction. Younger, analytical, collaborative, etc. I don't know if it will succeed; I've seen some things I like and some things I don't. I'm critical when I think it's warranted and vice versa. I'm in wait and see mode at this point.
Say what you want about Rick, and I've been critical of him for things in the past, but we essentially won all those games last year with HIS roster. So it clearly wasn't for a lack of talent that we were coming up short with Zimmer. I had no problem moving on from Zimmer, but I still contend moving off Spielman was a mistake especially in light of what I've seen from Adolfo-Mensah so far
Disagree, I believe Rick was as toxic as Zim in the end. They both needed to go.
Based on what? Him not getting along with Zimmer at the end? Who cares. That's football and it's rarely all cotton candy and rainbows especially over prolonged periods of time. Rick's job was to supply the roster with talent to compete. Zimmers job was to coach that talent to get the most out of them. Spielman did his job, Zimmer did not.
If you say so. Definitely know your opinion on Kwesi and Spielman. Doesn't mean I have to agree.
I didn't ask you to agree. You stated Spielman was toxic and I just asked you for some clarification on that statement
From many things I have read Zimmer and Spielman had a really bad relationship which which had an effect on the entire organization. It takes two to tango and I don't believe it was all on Zimmer. Just my take on the situation.
When you lose but know you have the talent to win as evidenced by last season, then yeah, that's frustrating and nobody likes losing or feeling the heat being on the hot seat. As cantankerous as Zimmer could be its not surprising they werent seeing eye to eye at the end. A GM's job though is to supply the roster with the talent to win football games, and Rick did that pretty consistently over his tenure. The cornerstones of this roster were drafted or acquired by Rick Spielman and we won 13 games last season with the talent he assembled. Somebody wake me when we get a cornerstone roster player brought in by the stat geek .
You can't rate a draft after one season and you sure as hell can't rate a GM after one draft. I understand you loved Spielman and can't stand Kwesi. Let's just agree to disagree and move on already.
My feelings on Kwesi are based a lot more on the overall picture and not just one draft. He was very outside the box hire who I felts resume was not worthy of the position for which he was hired. My own personal opinion is he was hired (at least partially) for reasons other than his resume. His first draft was a disaster just based on things like optics and trade value, nevermind the players selected, of which we got almost zero impact on a team that needed it. Free agency was also a complete wash unless you count half a season from Zadarius Smith. Trades for Reagor (bust), and Blacklock (bust) were ill advised. The one good move was the mid-season trade for Hockenson, but even then you could make the argument we might have been better off not making that trade and taking advantage of a ridiculously deep and talented tight end crop in this year's draft and having that player on a rookie deal to free up more always tight cap dollars since Hockensen is now due to get paid.
I didn't love Spielman and was critical of him, but he did a good job overall and was responsible for almost all the key talent on a 13 win team last season. After one season and two drafts/free agency periods from Adolfo-Mensah, I'd take Spielman back in a heart beat.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:My own personal opinion is he was hired (at least partially) for reasons other than his resume.
Such as?
Quote:I'd take Spielman back in a heart beat.
He had 15+ years at the top of the organization and didn't even get a team into the SB. Is that the best we can do at g.m.?
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ supafreak84 said:My own personal opinion is he was hired (at least partially) for reasons other than his resume.
Such as?
Quote:I'd take Spielman back in a heart beat.
He had 15+ years at the top of the organization and didn't even get a team into the SB. Is that the best we can do at g.m.?
I don't want to turn this political, but I'll just say we are very progressive organization in a very progressive state that just fired two white guys. I'll let you draw your own opinions and conclusions
Rick supplied us with a window to win it all and that's all you can ask. We won 13 games last season on the backs of the talent he brought in. The fact that Blair Walsh missed a crucial kick, or Case Keenum took us as far as he could, or that the players stopped listening to Zimmer after the strange 2020 covid season is beyond his control. I'm sure if Rick was given the opportunity he would have moved off Zimmer as well after 2021. Nobody bats 1000 as a GM, you just don't. Even the great Bill Polian had some stinkers. But I think overall Rick did his job and did a good job in the time he was here
Zimmer and RS were let go because of two well known issues:
1). Performance on the field
2). Cultural dysfunction in the locker-room and front office
They're both equally bad and both the HC and GM are responsible imo. Hell, if we as fans were sniffing it out the last few years of their tenure, it had to be pretty bad.
Why the LGBTQ+ vitriol? The Vikings also support other marginalized groups. Are they at fault for that too?
I've been to plenty of Vikings games over the Wilf years where they have supported our local armed forces and honored their sacrifices in meaningful ways.
If by chance they did miss Memorial Day this year, that was a big miss imo.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
Zimmer and RS were let go because of two well known issues:
1). Performance on the field
2). Cultural dysfunction in the locker-room and front office
They're both equally bad and both the HC and GM are responsible imo. Hell, if we as fans were sniffing it out the last few years of their tenure, it had to be pretty bad.
Why the LGBTQ+ vitriol? The Vikings also support other marginalized groups. Are they at fault for that too?
I've been to plenty of Vikings games over the Wilf years where they have supported our local armed forces and honored their sacrifices in meaningful ways.
If by chance they did miss Memorial Day this year, that was a big miss imo.
I think Zimmers message had grown stale and losing Danielle Hunter the last two seasons, who had been the most important cog of Zimmers defense, was crippling. I had no problem with them moving off Zimmer but I'm not sure what this dysfuctional/toxic front office is all about. Front offices and coaches aren't always going to see eye to eye, but what matters from a front office perspective though is did you supply the roster with enough talent to compete and meet ownership expectations? I'm not sure how you can say Spielman failed at that when we just won 13 games with his roster and players.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ comet52 said:
@ supafreak84 said:My own personal opinion is he was hired (at least partially) for reasons other than his resume.
Such as?
Quote:I'd take Spielman back in a heart beat.
He had 15+ years at the top of the organization and didn't even get a team into the SB. Is that the best we can do at g.m.?
I don't want to turn this political, but I'll just say we are very progressive organization in a very progressive state that just fired two white guys. I'll let you draw your own opinions and conclusions
Rick supplied us with a window to win it all and that's all you can ask. We won 13 games last season on the backs of the talent he brought in. The fact that Blair Walsh missed a crucial kick, or Case Keenum took us as far as he could, or that the players stopped listening to Zimmer after the strange 2020 covid season is beyond his control. I'm sure if Rick was given the opportunity he would have moved off Zimmer as well after 2021. Nobody bats 1000 as a GM, you just don't. Even the great Bill Polian had some stinkers. But I think overall Rick did his job and did a good job in the time he was here
I think you have a vivid imagination. The Vikings chose Kwesi because they thought he could revamp the football operation, not "because he's black."
As for Rick, I think he was slightly above average over his 15+ years. It was past time for a change.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
Why the LGBTQ+ vitriol? The Vikings also support other marginalized groups. Are they at fault for that too?
Why do you think, PF?
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ comet52 said:
@ supafreak84 said:My own personal opinion is he was hired (at least partially) for reasons other than his resume.
Such as?
Quote:I'd take Spielman back in a heart beat.
He had 15+ years at the top of the organization and didn't even get a team into the SB. Is that the best we can do at g.m.?
I don't want to turn this political, but I'll just say we are very progressive organization in a very progressive state that just fired two white guys. I'll let you draw your own opinions and conclusions
Rick supplied us with a window to win it all and that's all you can ask. We won 13 games last season on the backs of the talent he brought in. The fact that Blair Walsh missed a crucial kick, or Case Keenum took us as far as he could, or that the players stopped listening to Zimmer after the strange 2020 covid season is beyond his control. I'm sure if Rick was given the opportunity he would have moved off Zimmer as well after 2021. Nobody bats 1000 as a GM, you just don't. Even the great Bill Polian had some stinkers. But I think overall Rick did his job and did a good job in the time he was here
I think you have a vivid imagination. The Vikings chose Kwesi because they thought he could revamp the football operation, not "because he's black."
As for Rick, I think he was slightly above average over his 15+ years. It was past time for a change.
"Revamp the football operation?" What does that even mean? In the last two drafts Spielman drafted Jefferson and Darrisaw. Did the football operation really need revamping, especially being that we just won 13 games with Rick's roster?
Kwesi was chosen over guys who had much better resumes, but on the heels of George Floyd and everything else in a politically charged state that they weren't going to hire anything but an African American after just firing two white guys. The two finalists were Poles and Kwesi, with Kwesi being the fallback option after Poles decided to take the Bears job instead. This is what the NFL has been pushing for, so was Kwesi the best candidate, no, but he fit best into the leagues political narrative. Great for the Wilfs appeasing the woke mob, but not great for us as fans having a stats guy in charge of our roster trying to figure this all out as he goes. This is my opinion, but it's not hard to read between the lines and see how this all played out
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ comet52 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ comet52 said:
@ supafreak84 said:My own personal opinion is he was hired (at least partially) for reasons other than his resume.
Such as?
Quote:I'd take Spielman back in a heart beat.
He had 15+ years at the top of the organization and didn't even get a team into the SB. Is that the best we can do at g.m.?
I don't want to turn this political, but I'll just say we are very progressive organization in a very progressive state that just fired two white guys. I'll let you draw your own opinions and conclusions
Rick supplied us with a window to win it all and that's all you can ask. We won 13 games last season on the backs of the talent he brought in. The fact that Blair Walsh missed a crucial kick, or Case Keenum took us as far as he could, or that the players stopped listening to Zimmer after the strange 2020 covid season is beyond his control. I'm sure if Rick was given the opportunity he would have moved off Zimmer as well after 2021. Nobody bats 1000 as a GM, you just don't. Even the great Bill Polian had some stinkers. But I think overall Rick did his job and did a good job in the time he was here
I think you have a vivid imagination. The Vikings chose Kwesi because they thought he could revamp the football operation, not "because he's black."
As for Rick, I think he was slightly above average over his 15+ years. It was past time for a change.
"Revamp the football operation?" What does that even mean? In the last two drafts Spielman drafted Jefferson and Darrisaw. Did the football operation really need revamping, especially being that we just won 13 games with Rick's roster?
Kwesi was chosen over guys who had much better resumes, but on the heels of George Floyd and everything else in a politically charged state that they weren't going to hire anything but an African American after just firing two white guys. The two finalists were Poles and Kwesi, with Kwesi being the fallback option after Poles decided to take the Bears job instead. This is what the NFL has been pushing for, so was Kwesi the best candidate, no, but he fit best into the leagues political narrative. Great for the Wilfs appeasing the woke mob, but not great for us as fans having a stats guy in charge of our roster trying to figure this all out as he goes. This is my opinion, but it's not hard to read between the lines and see how this all played out
Rick's football operation wasn't producing playoff runs, and he and his h.c. were totally at each other's throats while he didn't bother to communicate about it clearly to ownership. Which is why he naively thought he was keeping the g.m. job and watching Mike get fired on the morning that he and Mike were both let go. The guy was seriously out of touch with reality allowing that mess to fester on his watch and think no one above him would notice or care.
As for the mob that made Wilfs hire a black guy, well, are they so weak-willed that they can't make a hire based on their own analysis of what would work best, but rather some invisible "mob" and imaginary pressure from the NFL dictated that they hire based on race? I haven't seen any credible evidence of what you're talking about. Why does it bother you so much that they hired a black g.m.?
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ comet52 said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ comet52 said:
@ supafreak84 said:My own personal opinion is he was hired (at least partially) for reasons other than his resume.
Such as?
Quote:I'd take Spielman back in a heart beat.
He had 15+ years at the top of the organization and didn't even get a team into the SB. Is that the best we can do at g.m.?
I don't want to turn this political, but I'll just say we are very progressive organization in a very progressive state that just fired two white guys. I'll let you draw your own opinions and conclusions
Rick supplied us with a window to win it all and that's all you can ask. We won 13 games last season on the backs of the talent he brought in. The fact that Blair Walsh missed a crucial kick, or Case Keenum took us as far as he could, or that the players stopped listening to Zimmer after the strange 2020 covid season is beyond his control. I'm sure if Rick was given the opportunity he would have moved off Zimmer as well after 2021. Nobody bats 1000 as a GM, you just don't. Even the great Bill Polian had some stinkers. But I think overall Rick did his job and did a good job in the time he was here
I think you have a vivid imagination. The Vikings chose Kwesi because they thought he could revamp the football operation, not "because he's black."
As for Rick, I think he was slightly above average over his 15+ years. It was past time for a change.
"Revamp the football operation?" What does that even mean? In the last two drafts Spielman drafted Jefferson and Darrisaw. Did the football operation really need revamping, especially being that we just won 13 games with Rick's roster?
Kwesi was chosen over guys who had much better resumes, but on the heels of George Floyd and everything else in a politically charged state that they weren't going to hire anything but an African American after just firing two white guys. The two finalists were Poles and Kwesi, with Kwesi being the fallback option after Poles decided to take the Bears job instead. This is what the NFL has been pushing for, so was Kwesi the best candidate, no, but he fit best into the leagues political narrative. Great for the Wilfs appeasing the woke mob, but not great for us as fans having a stats guy in charge of our roster trying to figure this all out as he goes. This is my opinion, but it's not hard to read between the lines and see how this all played out
Rick's football operation wasn't producing playoff runs, and he and his h.c. were totally at each other's throats while he didn't bother to communicate about it clearly to ownership. Which is why he naively thought he was keeping the g.m. job and watching Mike get fired on the morning that he and Mike were both let go. The guy was seriously out of touch with reality allowing that mess to fester on his watch and think no one above him would notice or care.
As for the mob that made Wilfs hire a black guy, well, are they so weak-willed that they can't make a hire based on their own analysis of what would work best, but rather some invisible "mob" and imaginary pressure from the NFL dictated that they hire based on race? I haven't seen any credible evidence of what you're talking about. Why does it bother you so much that they hired a black g.m.?
Wasn't producing playoff runs!? We had been to the playoffs in three of the six season prior to his firing including a couple playoff wins and a trip to the NFC Championship game with Case Keenum as our QB. We should of had another playoff win if Blair Walsh doesn't miss an absolute elementary field goal. Covid hit and 2020 was a bad year. We go into 2021 expecting more but lose eight games by one score or less! Again Rick Spielman did his job and IMO this team was in better hands on his watch.
I think race absolutely played a part in the hiring of Kwesi. How else do you justify hiring him and his total lack of experience over some of the other candidates we interviewed who were white? It's not his race that bothered me as I was wanting us to interview Louis Riddick, who I think is incredibly smart, well versed, and experienced. It's his overall lack of experience and his background that bothered me. I don't believe it to be wise to hire a GM who's background isn't in player personnel, scouting, or who has actually played the game of football at a high level.
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