Time to seriously start talking about Zimmer.

They just never look prepared going into a game. They scramble around like they're trying to figure it out in the fly?

yawn

@"greediron" said: yawn

2 games against the division and the team looked like they had no idea what to do. 

If I repeatedly failed on the job and didn’t meet expectations I would be fired... 5 years of it and I wouldn’t be able to find someone to hire me in that role again.

Make an argument as to why he should remain the coach. I am open to discussion.

What has he done to deserve more time?

lets wait till after. the season. to consider this. making a. coaching change after week. 4.  is. not wise

@"Mike Olson" said: Beloved by fans, and reportedly by players (who aren’t kickers) the truth is that his teams are just not getting it done despite a very talented roster. in two road games this year his team has looked utterly clueless taking the field. The defense is the football version of Joe Mauer at the plate.... Waiting halfway through the at bat to take a swing. Watching what the opposing offense is going to do usually resulting in putting his own offense in a hole. The inexplicable clock management continues, ruined kicker and special teams disasters, and a whole host of problems that a team like this shouldn’t have. 

Maybe running a 1970’s style team in the modern era isn’t genius? Maybe it is holding this team back. 

It is frustrating watching this team spin its wheels, and watching pregame videos about how they are “learning to be champions” or whatever they are calling it.

In my opinion it is time for Zimmer to be shown the door.

@"Mike Olson" said: Make an argument as to why he should remain the coach. I am open to discussion.

What has he done to deserve more time?

My suspicion is that most of his supporters feel some form of, "He's way better than Frazier was!!" And that boils down to accepting a mediocre team for fear of having a very bad season or two.
It's interesting you say he is supposedly beloved by fans and players. I'm not sure about the fans, but I guess he has some appeal through his reputation as a tough-guy throwback. That might be only within a certain age group and mindset.
As for players, two thoughts -
1. The aforementioned Les Frazier was allegedly loved by his players. Bill Belichek is not.
2. I bet it's more than kickers who do not. Add QBs to that list.

Take your pick: How do you prefer to lose?

We get an "offensive guy" and our D sucks.

We get a "defensive guy" and our O sucks.

Zimmer has fielded some outstanding defenses during his tenure. He has done whatever he can to inject some "life" into a stagnant offense, while juggling O - coordinators, mediocre QB's, O line woes, RB injuries.  Tough to find a successful formula on offense without a "Franchise" type QB (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, etc.)  Granted, a player does not an entire team make, but the Rams without Donald?  Bears without Mack? 

Wanna draft a QB high....no guarantees they will pan out. 
Wanna go through Free Agency?  What franchise will let a LEGIT QB go (at ANY price)
Wanna try an aging Packer?  Pants on the ground

I agree it is time to look at replacing Zimmer.  Basically, if the Vikes don't make it to the second round of the playoffs, Zimmer should be gone. 

There are some basic red flags:

• Since Zimmer became coach, including playoffs, the Vikings are 13-28 against teams that had a winning record coming into the game.
• The team does not look prepared at the start of important games.
• The team seems to play down to the opponent when there is a second string or rookie quarterback,  No killer instinct.
• Zimmer still has some clock management issues.
• When was the last time you saw some wrinkle on defense or offense that you were impressed with?

@"Vanguard83" said: Take your pick: How do you prefer to lose?

We get an "offensive guy" and our D sucks.

We get a "defensive guy" and our O sucks.

Zimmer has fielded some outstanding defenses during his tenure. He has done whatever he can to inject some "life" into a stagnant offense, while juggling O - coordinators, mediocre QB's, O line woes, RB injuries.  Tough to find a successful formula on offense without a "Franchise" type QB (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, etc.)  Granted, a player does not an entire team make, but the Rams without Donald?  Bears without Mack? 

Wanna draft a QB high....no guarantees they will pan out. 
Wanna go through Free Agency?  What franchise will let a LEGIT QB go (at ANY price)
Wanna try an aging Packer?  Pants on the ground

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Mike Olson" said: Beloved by fans, and reportedly by players (who aren’t kickers) the truth is that his teams are just not getting it done despite a very talented roster. in two road games this year his team has looked utterly clueless taking the field. The defense is the football version of Joe Mauer at the plate.... Waiting halfway through the at bat to take a swing. Watching what the opposing offense is going to do usually resulting in putting his own offense in a hole. The inexplicable clock management continues, ruined kicker and special teams disasters, and a whole host of problems that a team like this shouldn’t have. 

Maybe running a 1970’s style team in the modern era isn’t genius? Maybe it is holding this team back. 

It is frustrating watching this team spin its wheels, and watching pregame videos about how they are “learning to be champions” or whatever they are calling it.

In my opinion it is time for Zimmer to be shown the door.

Do you stop with ZImmer?  or do you go higher up the ladder?   IMO Spielman has been as big of a drag on the offensive efforts as Zimmer and it was RS that hired Zim,  as well as RS that has signed off on everything Zim has done to date that has you wanting him fired.   I dont know that this is only a coaching issue as much as an organizational issue.

@"Mike Olson" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Mike Olson" said: Beloved by fans, and reportedly by players (who aren’t kickers) the truth is that his teams are just not getting it done despite a very talented roster. in two road games this year his team has looked utterly clueless taking the field. The defense is the football version of Joe Mauer at the plate.... Waiting halfway through the at bat to take a swing. Watching what the opposing offense is going to do usually resulting in putting his own offense in a hole. The inexplicable clock management continues, ruined kicker and special teams disasters, and a whole host of problems that a team like this shouldn’t have. 

Maybe running a 1970’s style team in the modern era isn’t genius? Maybe it is holding this team back. 

It is frustrating watching this team spin its wheels, and watching pregame videos about how they are “learning to be champions” or whatever they are calling it.

In my opinion it is time for Zimmer to be shown the door.

Do you stop with ZImmer?  or do you go higher up the ladder?   IMO Spielman has been as big of a drag on the offensive efforts as Zimmer and it was RS that hired Zim,  as well as RS that has signed off on everything Zim has done to date that has you wanting him fired.   I dont know that this is only a coaching issue as much as an organizational issue.

Spielman goes too imo

No desire to start over and blow it up and start over because people are impatient and can't see how good we have it in the coaching department.  I can see the criticism of Speilman.  O-line, QBs and other draft related issues.  But not Zimmer.
Exemplary character.  And players want to play for a guy that is honest, cares about them, knows how to teach and is innovative.  Players take less to come play for the Vikings.  Who have we had our sites on and not gotten?  Who have we wanted to keep and not kept?
Defensive genius.  His defense is imitated.  His defense is consistently near the top, year after year. 

Adjustments.  His teams adjust mid game, at the half, at the quarter, whatever.  They adjust and can shut a team down. 

His team pretty much owns the packers.  The bears seem to have our number right now and their defense is pretty dang good.  But who doesn't like owning the Packers.  And not that little certificate saying you own the packers, but owning them on the field.
Yeah, I have no desire to blow it up and search for the next best thing.  The chiefs have Reid. What has he done other than have great offense during the regular season?  Only 1 team hoists the trophy at the end of the year.  And unless your initials are BB, getting close is all you get.

@"Mike Olson" said: Beloved by fans, and reportedly by players (who aren’t kickers) the truth is that his teams are just not getting it done despite a very talented roster. in two road games this year his team has looked utterly clueless taking the field. The defense is the football version of Joe Mauer at the plate.... Waiting halfway through the at bat to take a swing. Watching what the opposing offense is going to do usually resulting in putting his own offense in a hole. The inexplicable clock management continues, ruined kicker and special teams disasters, and a whole host of problems that a team like this shouldn’t have. 

Maybe running a 1970’s style team in the modern era isn’t genius? Maybe it is holding this team back. 

It is frustrating watching this team spin its wheels, and watching pregame videos about how they are “learning to be champions” or whatever they are calling it.

In my opinion it is time for Zimmer to be shown the door.

I agree that whether he needs to go should be based on the team performance during his tenure.  And I do believe this could possibly be Zim's last year in Minnesota.  But I disagree that he's running a 1970's style team.  His defenses are still some of the best I've ever seen for the Vikes.  And a dominant defense is certainly not an outdated '70's concept.

Zim's issue...and I believe we have enough team history to bear this out...is that his vision  for team success doesn't meld with that of his offensive coordinators.  Zim hates turnovers...particularly those committed by QB's.  Hence, I do believe you are correct that if anything, he's not comfortable playing a wide open offensive style.  Mahomes would languish here.  But I don't think that harkens to a 1970's approach.  He's personally just too rigid and inflexible when it comes to adapting to an alternate game plan when Plan A isn't working.  And that may prove to be his downfall.

@"greediron" said:

No desire to start over and blow it up and start over because people are impatient and can't see how good we have it in the coaching department.  I can see the criticism of Speilman.  O-line, QBs and other draft related issues.  But not Zimmer. Exemplary character.  And players want to play for a guy that is honest, cares about them, knows how to teach and is innovative.  Players take less to come play for the Vikings.  Who have we had our sites on and not gotten?  Who have we wanted to keep and not kept? Defensive genius.  His defense is imitated.  His defense is consistently near the top, year after year. 

Adjustments.  His teams adjust mid game, at the half, at the quarter, whatever.  They adjust and can shut a team down. 

His team pretty much owns the packers.  The bears seem to have our number right now and their defense is pretty dang good.  But who doesn't like owning the Packers.  And not that little certificate saying you own the packers, but owning them on the field.
Yeah, I have no desire to blow it up and search for the next best thing.  The chiefs have Reid. What has he done other than have great offense during the regular season?  Only 1 team hoists the trophy at the end of the year.  And unless your initials are BB, getting close is all you get.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Vanguard83" said: Take your pick: How do you prefer to lose?

We get an "offensive guy" and our D sucks.

We get a "defensive guy" and our O sucks.

Zimmer has fielded some outstanding defenses during his tenure. He has done whatever he can to inject some "life" into a stagnant offense, while juggling O - coordinators, mediocre QB's, O line woes, RB injuries.  Tough to find a successful formula on offense without a "Franchise" type QB (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, etc.)  Granted, a player does not an entire team make, but the Rams without Donald?  Bears without Mack? 

Wanna draft a QB high....no guarantees they will pan out. 
Wanna go through Free Agency?  What franchise will let a LEGIT QB go (at ANY price)
Wanna try an aging Packer?  Pants on the ground

in fairness,  the D was built at the expense of the O,  other teams try to find balance,  Zimmer and RS completely ignored the offense until the last couple drafts,  now they put a little stock into the O,  but the D is starting to age and show cracks.... not to mention eat a lot of cap space.  as far as the juggling OCs,  except for Shurmer that is on Zim as well.  I wasnt down on him when Norv left,  but I am sure there was something there.  Zimmer is likely just as hard on the OCs if they try and get creative as he is on kickers.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

No desire to start over and blow it up and start over because people are impatient and can't see how good we have it in the coaching department.  I can see the criticism of Speilman.  O-line, QBs and other draft related issues.  But not Zimmer. Exemplary character.  And players want to play for a guy that is honest, cares about them, knows how to teach and is innovative.  Players take less to come play for the Vikings.  Who have we had our sites on and not gotten?  Who have we wanted to keep and not kept? Defensive genius.  His defense is imitated.  His defense is consistently near the top, year after year. 

Adjustments.  His teams adjust mid game, at the half, at the quarter, whatever.  They adjust and can shut a team down. 

His team pretty much owns the packers.  The bears seem to have our number right now and their defense is pretty dang good.  But who doesn't like owning the Packers.  And not that little certificate saying you own the packers, but owning them on the field.
Yeah, I have no desire to blow it up and search for the next best thing.  The chiefs have Reid. What has he done other than have great offense during the regular season?  Only 1 team hoists the trophy at the end of the year.  And unless your initials are BB, getting close is all you get.

i have been waiting for coaching growth,  something that shows that he is recognizing his weaknesses and addressing them... he isnt.  

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

No desire to start over and blow it up and start over because people are impatient and can't see how good we have it in the coaching department.  I can see the criticism of Speilman.  O-line, QBs and other draft related issues.  But not Zimmer. Exemplary character.  And players want to play for a guy that is honest, cares about them, knows how to teach and is innovative.  Players take less to come play for the Vikings.  Who have we had our sites on and not gotten?  Who have we wanted to keep and not kept? Defensive genius.  His defense is imitated.  His defense is consistently near the top, year after year. 

Adjustments.  His teams adjust mid game, at the half, at the quarter, whatever.  They adjust and can shut a team down. 

His team pretty much owns the packers.  The bears seem to have our number right now and their defense is pretty dang good.  But who doesn't like owning the Packers.  And not that little certificate saying you own the packers, but owning them on the field.
Yeah, I have no desire to blow it up and search for the next best thing.  The chiefs have Reid. What has he done other than have great offense during the regular season?  Only 1 team hoists the trophy at the end of the year.  And unless your initials are BB, getting close is all you get.

i have been waiting for coaching growth,  something that shows that he is recognizing his weaknesses and addressing them... he isnt.  

I have seen it.  His defensive scheme has adjusted consistently. Last year the scheme wasn't working against the offensive bias in the rules, so he backed off and adjusted.  After the Rams game, his defense was pretty damn stout and Linval was not his usual self. 

So what weaknesses can you point out that he has not addressed. 

There are 3 things that just do not seem to change.  Our Defense does not show up till Qtr2, Our QB is Uber talented but has zero instincts and our Offensive Line remains offensive.  Until these change we will remain an average team with a load of talent.   

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

No desire to start over and blow it up and start over because people are impatient and can't see how good we have it in the coaching department.  I can see the criticism of Speilman.  O-line, QBs and other draft related issues.  But not Zimmer. Exemplary character.  And players want to play for a guy that is honest, cares about them, knows how to teach and is innovative.  Players take less to come play for the Vikings.  Who have we had our sites on and not gotten?  Who have we wanted to keep and not kept? Defensive genius.  His defense is imitated.  His defense is consistently near the top, year after year. 

Adjustments.  His teams adjust mid game, at the half, at the quarter, whatever.  They adjust and can shut a team down. 

His team pretty much owns the packers.  The bears seem to have our number right now and their defense is pretty dang good.  But who doesn't like owning the Packers.  And not that little certificate saying you own the packers, but owning them on the field.
Yeah, I have no desire to blow it up and search for the next best thing.  The chiefs have Reid. What has he done other than have great offense during the regular season?  Only 1 team hoists the trophy at the end of the year.  And unless your initials are BB, getting close is all you get.

i have been waiting for coaching growth,  something that shows that he is recognizing his weaknesses and addressing them... he isnt.  

I have seen it.  His defensive scheme has adjusted consistently. Last year the scheme wasn't working against the offensive bias in the rules, so he backed off and adjusted.  After the Rams game, his defense was pretty damn stout and Linval was not his usual self. 

So what weaknesses can you point out that he has not addressed. 

that is DC stuff,  that is shit that he was doing good enough to get a chance at a HC position.

clock management,  personnel matters (like knowing how to handle different types of personalities without sending them off the rails (kickers and QBs)  I just dont see him becoming a great HC that has the ability to get everybody to walk through walls for him.  His defenders love him,  but thats a different mind set of player,  offense is more fragile egos and he doesnt seem to have that approach in his arsenal.