Time to seriously start talking about Zimmer.

@"Mike Olson" said:

Spielman goes too imo

@"JoDakota" said:

@"Mike Olson" said:

Spielman goes too imo

In the original piece, Mike, you said this about Zimmer...."the truth is that his teams are just not getting it done despite a very talented roster."

So, Speilman has done his job, building a very talented roster. What more can a GM do? Zim is a yo-yo coach. Wins decently every other year, then fails when us fans get our hopes up. It's frustrating to watch bad starts in our biggest games, especially on the defensive side of the ball. We start so porous, and it takes until halftime to adjust, by then our offense is in a hole.

On the offensive side of the ball, I understand wanting to run the ball more than last year, but do we always have to run right up the gut? Cook has speed, and Rudolph is a good blocker, seems like a run outside once in awhile could be attempted.

Re Spielman, I think the "talented roster" is overrated because it is shallow. Every year, a player goes down and the excuses start, many of which are some form of, "How can any team compete with two injured linemen or losing our star RB or without a CB etc.?" Even on defense, we have about 8 excellent players, but depth has been questionable. The problem is far worse on offense, where we have maybe 3 excellent players, struggle to find others at key positions, and every year our offensive line unit seems to be 5 average starters backed up by subpar depth.
But I think even if you argue that Spielman has collected great talent in certain areas of the team, an owner can (maybe should) make a change if he has repeatedly failed to fill an area so key that a team can't win a championship: quarterback. The list of fails is too long to let Spielman try again. (And if anyone thinks Bridgewater turning the high-powered Saints offense into a grinding unit proves that Spielman had a winner in Teddy but stolen from us by injury, you're making a faith-based argument.) If you can draft DBs and DEs well but can't get your team a winning QB, you're a college scout, not a GM.
I have other issues about Zimmer but I really think it's a package deal. A lot of player success and failure stories are on the coaching staff as well as Spielman. More, if you dump Spielman, you have to give his replacement the freedom to replace Zimmer - unless you want to limit your GM candidates to those who are willing to retain Zim.

I'm willing to give him this season, but if they keep looking like this, goodbye Zim.  What drives me nuts is how often they look like somebody told them the game started an hour later. 

I have issues with Zimmer seemingly getting out schemed/out coached in big situations too often...

Been a long time since I watched a Viking game and said to myself "that wiley Viking coaching staff really outshined the competition today" 

But wait! There's more:

• Our big knocker players fold too soon or don't show
• We are only going so far with this pass pro and no improvement from Cousins

@"purplefaithful" said: I have issues with Zimmer seemingly getting out schemed/out coached in big situations too often...

Been a long time since I watched a Viking game and said to myself "that wiley Viking coaching staff really outshined the competition today" 

But wait! There's more:

• Our big knocker players fold too soon or don't show
• We are only going so far with this pass pro and no improvement from Cousins

It's not one or the other.

But that Green Bay loss is a perfect microcosm of Zimmer's defense. Come out unprepared, adjust, dominate the rest of the way, and if you're not too far behind by then, you can perhaps pull out a W. Or not. 

So all of that has to be weighed. I really like always having a good defense. Don't take that for granted. And I like how he can, master-like, identify the problem and fix it (with one or two exceptions). The last three quarters of that Packer game, the Vikings forced Aaron Rodgers into 11 straight possessions of nothing Burgers.

But why he can't come to the game with a better game plan is beyond me. Maybe it's time for young Grasshopper to call Master Po'cells. 

As to Zimmer, I've got a few top level complaints:

• He's a QB killer.  He has consistently destroyed the confidence of every QB he has had in Minnesota by essentially telling them to "not screw up".  The only one who didn't listen was Keenum, who Zimmer berated as "lucky" and let him go.
• Closely linked to the previous point, Zimmer game plans to keep games close.  He admits it.  He thinks if the game is close at the end, we are in good shape.  That is not how winners think.  Step on the throat of an opponent when they are down?  Not Zimmer's philosophy.  Look no further than the NFC Championship game when we went conservative with a lead and needed a miracle to bail us out.  This is also why his defenses do not create turnovers at rates consistent with top-tier defenses.
• He's stubborn and too loyal to players (non-kickers!).  Why did we re-sign Barr to a mega-deal and continue to use him in rather ordinary ways?  The Rudolph extension looks ridiculous at this point.  Blame Spielman here, but I see Zim's fingerprints all over these moves

A loss to the Giants this week, and the gates to Viking hell will be wide open!
I don't think you can blame Zimmer and absolve Spielman. Paying Cousins a 3 year guaranteed contract may have negated the building of a pretty good roster otherwise.
The rats will be jumping off the ship if they don't turn things around.
They seem capable and are 2-2, but they need to get this thing going, it could get ugly!

This isn't Rocket Science. The team wilts on the road against good teams. Period.

The Defense bends but doesn't break ala the Patriots. That's all well and good when you have the GOAT playing QB. And Belicheat actually schemes for each opponent's Offense. Something his OC's also do. What a novel concept.

All the Draft Capital and Contracts just to get Bend but don't Break. Something plenty of other Defenses achieve without such a massive investment to that side of the ball.

Meanwhile, Rick can't find a modern QB and even if he did Zimmer wouldn't turn him loose anyway.

How many more Nationally Televised flops do some of you need to see? Rick and Zimmer took this team from the basement to middle-of-the-pack.  And, but for one horseshoe in the ass run that they almost screwed up that still led to yet another ass-whipping in a NFCCG, average is all you're getting.

Isn't one definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting different results?

We're all insane by dint of being Vikings fans. But it takes a special kind of crazy to think Rick and Zimmer are going to produce anything but continued mediocrity.

Minnesota is literally the equivalent of an NBA team with one super star that gets stuck not being good enough to win it all but not bad enough to get a lottery pick.

Personally, I'd rather root for a team that sucks for a few years while rebuilding than watch the same old same old every year and somehow expecting a different result. At least with a rebuild you're hoping to see the light at the end of the tunnel. This franchise is stuck in the dark right now.

@"JoDakota" said:

@"Mike Olson" said:

Spielman goes too imo

In the original piece, Mike, you said this about Zimmer...."the truth is that his teams are just not getting it done despite a very talented roster."

So, Speilman has done his job, building a very talented roster. What more can a GM do? Zim is a yo-yo coach. Wins decently every other year, then fails when us fans get our hopes up. It's frustrating to watch bad starts in our biggest games, especially on the defensive side of the ball. We start so porous, and it takes until halftime to adjust, by then our offense is in a hole.

On the offensive side of the ball, I understand wanting to run the ball more than last year, but do we always have to run right up the gut? Cook has speed, and Rudolph is a good blocker, seems like a run outside once in awhile could be attempted.

If the Vikings draft a QB very high next year, this franchise is going to look extremely attractive to both HC and GM candidates. 

@"StickyBun" said: If the Vikings draft a QB very high next year, this franchise is going to look extremely attractive to both HC and GM candidates. 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said: If the Vikings draft a QB very high next year, this franchise is going to look extremely attractive to both HC and GM candidates. 

wouldnt it be more attractive if they were going to draft that QB instead of drafting one and then trying to find the GM and HC that want to work with who ever you get?

@"StickyBun" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"StickyBun" said: If the Vikings draft a QB very high next year, this franchise is going to look extremely attractive to both HC and GM candidates. 

wouldnt it be more attractive if they were going to draft that QB instead of drafting one and then trying to find the GM and HC that want to work with who ever you get?

Oh for sure. Definitely. And you know what, maybe that is exactly what the Wilfs will do. I think that would be optimal quite honestly.

But my gut is telling me that the Wilfs are going to give Z and Spielman one more year after this. JMO. 

Zimmer has to go. It's the only way a new QB (and Kicker) can come in and not get micromanaged into being a Game Manager who doesn't make mistakes.

More likely? Wilfs keep them and Teddy gets signed back to dink and dunk and not lose games.

That's a joke, but I'm still struggling to understand why Zimmer and Rick brought in a guy who likes to sling the rock and tried to reprogram him into being a Game Manger. Such a horrible decision and one that should be a fireable offense.

@"FSUVike" said: Zimmer has to go. It's the only way a new QB (and Kicker) can come in and not get micromanaged into being a Game Manager who doesn't make mistakes.

More likely? Wilfs keep them and Teddy gets signed back to dink and dunk and not lose games.

That's a joke, but I'm still struggling to understand why Zimmer and Rick brought in a guy who likes to sling the rock and tried to reprogram him into being a Game Manger. Such a horrible decision and one that should be a fireable offense.

These players see other team like the Chiefs, Rams, Eagles, etc. running all kinds of plays to get the skill players the ball.
Now it falls on Cousins to be perfect when he gets his opportunities here and there.
Whatever they do, they need a system and coaches on offense that they will stick with.

If we lose to the Giants I could see Spielman firing Zimmer and promoting Kubiak or Stafanski and see what happens the rest of the way 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"pumpf" said: I'm prepared to wait a bit longer to see how this plays out.  2-2 (even though the 2 Ws came against cream-puff teams) is too early to make a decision.  Besides, we SHOULD have beaten GB (on the road) if only KS hadn't called for a play-action pass... and Cousins hadn't then thrown an INT.  If we had just run the ball, we (probably?) had won that game.  Or, if Cousins hadn't thrown that INT.  Either way, we are almost 3-1... with our only loss coming at a place that we never win.  

But what I saw on Sunday certainly does make it worth discussing, whether or not we're a Super Bowl team... or a pretender that gets past bad teams but can't win vs. good teams.  

What, you don't want to dismantle the entire organization after one crap game? 

The biggest problem is Kirk Cousins. Fix that. If he's not permanently damaged. The next biggest problem is pass protection. That is what it is but I expect it to improve as Bradbury matures and Stefanski figures out different ways to mitigate that weakness. Still, Cousins plays well and we're likely 4-0. 

Zimmer talk is crazy. I have big problems with his game prep, but he's still among the best 6 to 10 coaches in the league IMO. Be stupid to jettison him unless you were to stumble upon an obvious "upgrade" hiding under a rock. And even then, be careful what you wish for.

Spielman talk is BATSHIT crazy. Jersey-level stupid. There's probably not a person in the org more responsible for giving this team the talent it has. Keep in mind, THAT'S why we're all frustrated. If this team sucked and we played like that, it would be one thing. But this is one of the more talented rosters in the NFL. We expect more precisely becaue we're talented--because we have Thielen and Diggs and Cook and Hunter and Griffen and Kendricks and Barr and Rhodes and Harry. This team hasn't been this stacked in its entire existence. 

Chicago had BACK UPS in the lineup everywhere and still kicked our asses. That isn't Spielman's fault. Fix the PROBLEM. Don't fix what ain't broken. 

@"Bolstad79" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"pumpf" said: I'm prepared to wait a bit longer to see how this plays out.  2-2 (even though the 2 Ws came against cream-puff teams) is too early to make a decision.  Besides, we SHOULD have beaten GB (on the road) if only KS hadn't called for a play-action pass... and Cousins hadn't then thrown an INT.  If we had just run the ball, we (probably?) had won that game.  Or, if Cousins hadn't thrown that INT.  Either way, we are almost 3-1... with our only loss coming at a place that we never win.  

But what I saw on Sunday certainly does make it worth discussing, whether or not we're a Super Bowl team... or a pretender that gets past bad teams but can't win vs. good teams.  

What, you don't want to dismantle the entire organization after one crap game? 

The biggest problem is Kirk Cousins. Fix that. If he's not permanently damaged. The next biggest problem is pass protection. That is what it is but I expect it to improve as Bradbury matures and Stefanski figures out different ways to mitigate that weakness. Still, Cousins plays well and we're likely 4-0. 

Zimmer talk is crazy. I have big problems with his game prep, but he's still among the best 6 to 10 coaches in the league IMO. Be stupid to jettison him unless you were to stumble upon an obvious "upgrade" hiding under a rock. And even then, be careful what you wish for.

Spielman talk is BATSHIT crazy. Jersey-level stupid. There's probably not a person in the org more responsible for giving this team the talent it has. Keep in mind, THAT'S why we're all frustrated. If this team sucked and we played like that, it would be one thing. But this is one of the more talented rosters in the NFL. We expect more precisely becaue we're talented--because we have Thielen and Diggs and Cook and Hunter and Griffen and Kendricks and Barr and Rhodes and Harry. This team hasn't been this stacked in its entire existence. 

Chicago had BACK UPS in the lineup everywhere and still kicked our asses. That isn't Spielman's fault. Fix the PROBLEM. Don't fix what ain't broken. 

It's more than 1 game, it's his body of work.

@"njvike" said:

@"Bolstad79" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"pumpf" said: I'm prepared to wait a bit longer to see how this plays out.  2-2 (even though the 2 Ws came against cream-puff teams) is too early to make a decision.  Besides, we SHOULD have beaten GB (on the road) if only KS hadn't called for a play-action pass... and Cousins hadn't then thrown an INT.  If we had just run the ball, we (probably?) had won that game.  Or, if Cousins hadn't thrown that INT.  Either way, we are almost 3-1... with our only loss coming at a place that we never win.  

But what I saw on Sunday certainly does make it worth discussing, whether or not we're a Super Bowl team... or a pretender that gets past bad teams but can't win vs. good teams.  

What, you don't want to dismantle the entire organization after one crap game? 

The biggest problem is Kirk Cousins. Fix that. If he's not permanently damaged. The next biggest problem is pass protection. That is what it is but I expect it to improve as Bradbury matures and Stefanski figures out different ways to mitigate that weakness. Still, Cousins plays well and we're likely 4-0. 

Zimmer talk is crazy. I have big problems with his game prep, but he's still among the best 6 to 10 coaches in the league IMO. Be stupid to jettison him unless you were to stumble upon an obvious "upgrade" hiding under a rock. And even then, be careful what you wish for.

Spielman talk is BATSHIT crazy. Jersey-level stupid. There's probably not a person in the org more responsible for giving this team the talent it has. Keep in mind, THAT'S why we're all frustrated. If this team sucked and we played like that, it would be one thing. But this is one of the more talented rosters in the NFL. We expect more precisely becaue we're talented--because we have Thielen and Diggs and Cook and Hunter and Griffen and Kendricks and Barr and Rhodes and Harry. This team hasn't been this stacked in its entire existence. 

Chicago had BACK UPS in the lineup everywhere and still kicked our asses. That isn't Spielman's fault. Fix the PROBLEM. Don't fix what ain't broken. 

It's more than 1 game, it's his body of work.

Exactly. This SHOULD be about an overall performance.

Jesus H. Christ, I think it’s OK to judge a man in 2019 if he’s been on the job since 2006, isn’t it? 

13+ seasons with 3 HC’s and God knows how many OC’s, DC’s, QB’s, K’s, P’s, executive secretaries, etc.

I think that 13 seasons and a grand total of TWO playoff wins, EIGHT YEARS apart by the way, constitutes a body of work that sucks donkey balls.....or MoronBalls, tomaytow/tomahtah.

 Anyone that considers THAT production anything other than SHIT is just a maroonbell tingling d-bag.

FACT : There has NEVER been a more abysmal 14 year playoff stretch in the Vikings entire history than what we are currently experiencing. Don’t take my word for it, pull up the Vikings’ history yourself and check it out.

FACT:  Any team that WINS a Super Bowl must win at LEAST 3 CONSECUTIVE playoff games (at least 1 on the road) , or FOUR CONSECUTIVE playoff games as a wildcard, meaning all 4 on the road (typically)  

FACT : The last time ANY Vikings team has managed at least TWO consecutive playoff wins? Burnsie and his 1987 squad. Every single so called “great” Vikings team since then, 32 fucking years ago, has FAILED to match that accomplishment. So much for this bullshit narrative that the Vikings are a “great” championship organization. You  CAN NOT claim to be a great team when your single playoff wins occur 8 YEARS apart. 

FACT : This urban legend of the Vikings having the most talented roster being dragged down by coaching (and I’ve been reading this horse-hockey for the past 4 years at least) is 100% BULLSHIT.  How much team NON -Success in the postseason does it take for fans to reach this obvious conclusion? 

I’m happy to give you multiple examples of pretty mediocre HC’s who have at least MADE it to a Super Bowl, and sometimes WON a Super Bowl : Jim Fassel, BOTH Harbaugh Brothers, Dan Quinn, Barry Switzer, Jon Gruden, Brian Billick, Mike Tomlin, Bobby Ross. That’s just off the top of my head. I’ll pull up more mediocre names that have accomplished more with less. All of these coaches at least WON a Conference Championship. Did ALL of these HC’s have the “bestest” rosters? Uhhh, NO.

 If Micky and Dicky are truly SOOOOO much better than their competitors, I would expect more tangible results with such a “loaded” roster. Vikings fans can’t pull their usual “heads I win, tails you lose” approach” in explaining away the 80% failure rate to win a playoff  for ol’ Micky  (1 for 5, soon to be 1 for 6) or the 85% failure rate for Dicky (2 for 13, soon to be 2 for 14). 

And if the Vikings truly had the best roster, they would NOT shit the bed in big games as consistently as they have. Racking up stats against bottom-feeder teams during victories and padding bull shit stats in the 4th qtr of a loss are 2 totally different animals. . 

FACT : A “Comeback” is when a team comes back from a significant deficit, and then WINS. If a team manages to struggle to make the final point differential shrink from double digits to single digits? There IS a term for that outcome.....it’s called a LOSS.

FACT :  A 31 point blowout, humiliating, atrocious loss in a Conference Championship game is NOT 1 game away from a SB.....it’s 32 fucking points away from a Super Bowl. PERIOD.

I have to admit, the fact that a 2-2 start to this season is making Vikings fans question the BIG picture (i.e., who is the LONE common denominator since the Wilfs bought the team) is making me laugh.

This dude, or should I say “Saint”, should have been out the door with Childress in 2010. I have been consistent in this opinion since then. What would be the worst outcome if Schpielman went back to the media on 2010?  We would have been deprived of that lone home miracle playoff win 8 years later. Whoop-dee-fucking-doo. 

Would  things have been different in those years? Sure, all it would take is zero playoff wins to be worse, 1 to tie an 2 to exceed it. NOT  THAT difficult.

P.S.  If the reference from a previous poster about “hating” Dicky was directed at me? Wrong. Never said I hated  the dude, simply pointed out his teams’ undeniable mediocrity. I guess facts like Dicky’s actual W/L record causes discomfort to Ryckophants! 

PEACE