Cousins has regressed?

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said: He is who we thought he might be: a player who wilts under pressure. And by "pressure" I mean that in every sense of the word. He'll have some really good games coming up (because that's who he is, too), but we can't count on him.

honestly,  the tickets are sold for this year,  they need to start looking at the future and give the fans a reason for optimism next year,  right now I am seeing a team with enough talent to maybe back into the playoffs and maybe win a wild card game... but thats it,  and I dont see that as a step towards a more promising future,  rather a step towards not making the playoffs next year and being worse the following.

every franchise has to hit the reset button at some point,  yes we are a talented roster right now,  but its unrealized talent and with the way it looks right now.. its not coming to reality any time soon.  while I dont think Reiff is a big problem...  if they could get Trent Williams... maybe its something to look at ( I am not sure how much i give up for a 31 year old player though) ... how would Brandon Sherff fit in this system?  Word was he was interested in coming back to the midwest in FA next year with KC and Minny being his desired targets.  Make it happen now and lets start on next year... next week.

I see a more talented team than that. Don't forget this is the team that dominated the Falcons, Raiders and Packers (for 3 quarters). We'll see that team again if they can keep their heads. That's my biggest fear. A loss like this has a corrosive power. 

Too early to think about off season, because this is still a playoff team, but assuming we don't go far in the playoffs and the reason for that is clearly Cousins, gun to my head, I say keep the team together (except Reiff and Waynes), bring in Scherff, draft a QB and a left tackle. 

are the playoffs really enough though?  i know the whole get there and its a new season mantra,  but the bears just showed us how far from being a contender we really are, 

@"Jor-El" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said: He is who we thought he might be: a player who wilts under pressure. And by "pressure" I mean that in every sense of the word. He'll have some really good games coming up (because that's who he is, too), but we can't count on him.

honestly,  the tickets are sold for this year,  they need to start looking at the future and give the fans a reason for optimism next year,  right now I am seeing a team with enough talent to maybe back into the playoffs and maybe win a wild card game... but thats it,  and I dont see that as a step towards a more promising future,  rather a step towards not making the playoffs next year and being worse the following.

every franchise has to hit the reset button at some point,  yes we are a talented roster right now,  but its unrealized talent and with the way it looks right now.. its not coming to reality any time soon.  while I dont think Reiff is a big problem...  if they could get Trent Williams... maybe its something to look at ( I am not sure how much i give up for a 31 year old player though) ... how would Brandon Sherff fit in this system?  Word was he was interested in coming back to the midwest in FA next year with KC and Minny being his desired targets.  Make it happen now and lets start on next year... next week.

I see a more talented team than that. Don't forget this is the team that dominated the Falcons, Raiders and Packers (for 3 quarters). We'll see that team again if they can keep their heads. That's my biggest fear. A loss like this has a corrosive power. 

Too early to think about off season, because this is still a playoff team, but assuming we don't go far in the playoffs and the reason for that is clearly Cousins, gun to my head, I say keep the team together (except Reiff and Waynes), bring in Scherff, draft a QB and a left tackle. 

I just can't see letting the current GM select a QB in the draft - he has not been successful doing so. And I can't see Zimmer grooming a young QB, or selecting an OC to do so.

I don't know if Cousins has regressed or if he's still the same but it's pretty clear that whoever is in charge in Minnesota (it's been a revolving door on the offensive side), they aren't developing QBs very well.

As far as "blowing the thing up"... 100% NO!
A good QB could take this team, even with a bad o-line, to the Super Bowl. Look at the NY Giants. They put Daniel Jones in instead of Eli and they're a completely different team now. By swapping out one player (And they lost Barkley!).
Carolina is 2-0 with Kyle Allen, instead of an injured Cam Newton.

Gardner Minshew in Jacksonville!
None of these 3 teams are likely going to the Super Bowl but I'm just illustrating how you can swap one player and your entire fortunes can change.

We don't need a big roster churn, we need a good quarterback.

This team is on it's 4th OC and system in 4 years.Last year, with Cook out 6 of the first 8 weeks, the offense was still very productive and Thielen was setting records.But noooo, Zimmer wanted to run the dinosaur offense.So they fire JDF, who is now helping Minshew in Jacksonville, and promote Stefanski who has to be a "yes" man.
Is it any wonder the skill players are upset?They are just high paid decoys.Cousins has thrown 99 passes in 4 games and people complain if he misses a deep one that has a 50% or less chance of success.
The Vikings should use Cook like the Steelers used Bell and throw him more passes.They should never have him in to block because he is terrible at pass pro.He got blasted on the one play where Kirk fumbled.  That still is on Kirk but very very few posters mention Cook's whiff.
Maybe Cousins is not the answer?  OK.
But changing the OC and system every year is worse.

@"pattersaur" said:

I don't know if Cousins has regressed or if he's still the same but it's pretty clear that whoever is in charge in Minnesota (it's been a revolving door on the offensive side), they aren't developing QBs very well.

As far as "blowing the thing up"... 100% NO!
A good QB could take this team, even with a bad o-line, to the Super Bowl. Look at the NY Giants. They put Daniel Jones in instead of Eli and they're a completely different team now. By swapping out one player (And they lost Barkley!).
Carolina is 2-0 with Kyle Allen, instead of an injured Cam Newton.

Gardner Minshew in Jacksonville!
None of these 3 teams are likely going to the Super Bowl but I'm just illustrating how you can swap one player and your entire fortunes can change.

We don't need a big roster churn, we need a good quarterback.

O-line is a separate issue, separate topic.

When Cousins had a clean pocket, clear view, he overshot Thielen.  I can think of other plays where the pocket was clean and he ran out of it.  

For $84 million, when you have a clean pocket and a guy open, those are the throws I expect him to hit.

@"SFVikeFan" said: O-line is a separate issue, separate topic.

When Cousins had a clean pocket, clear view, he overshot Thielen.  I can think of other plays where the pocket was clean and he ran out of it.  

For $84 million, when you have a clean pocket and a guy open, those are the throws I expect him to hit.

@"pattersaur" said:

I don't know if Cousins has regressed or if he's still the same but it's pretty clear that whoever is in charge in Minnesota (it's been a revolving door on the offensive side), they aren't developing QBs very well.

As far as "blowing the thing up"... 100% NO!
A good QB could take this team, even with a bad o-line, to the Super Bowl. Look at the NY Giants. They put Daniel Jones in instead of Eli and they're a completely different team now. By swapping out one player (And they lost Barkley!).
Carolina is 2-0 with Kyle Allen, instead of an injured Cam Newton.

Gardner Minshew in Jacksonville!
None of these 3 teams are likely going to the Super Bowl but I'm just illustrating how you can swap one player and your entire fortunes can change.

We don't need a big roster churn, we need a good quarterback.

... could we trade Cousins straight up with Denver for Joe Flacco?  :s

I am stealing this from P1 on the horn board,  but this pretty much sums up my thoughts on the situation as well.

If you like Kirk or not there is not doubt as soon as Zimmer told Flip to run the ball more Kirk's play has fallen off.

Weeks 1-7 last year when Kirk was throwing 40 times a game the team was 4-2-1 (should have been 5-2 but for kickers)

Per game during those weeks:
Attempts: 43
Comp%: 70
Yards/G: 309
TDs: 14
TD%: 4.67
Ints: 3
Int%: 1
Rating:101.8
Yards/Attempt: 7.21
AY/A:7.69

I don't care what anyone says those are good numbers so its not like he is not capable of performing well. He has more talent than any QB the Vikings have had since Favre. No Case lovers I don't give a shit how cheap he was he wasn't going to win the Vikings the Super Bowl. And no Teddy lovers, Teddy is in the Sean Peyton offense now and still looks the same. A lot people wanted to blame the coordinators for holding Teddy back but he is what he is. When game manager is looked up they should have a picture of Teddy which is why Zimmer loved him.

Which baffles me why they went out and got Kirk and now are trying to change him. The history is there if you like him or not Kirk is able to throw the ball and put up numbers. Now they are asking him, behind a piss poor pass protecting Oline lets be honest, to do deep play action passes which basically just gives the Dline and extra second or two to get to him before he has to avoid the rush and try to throw.

Kirk obviously folds under pressure, but the coaching staff is doing him no favors with what is being asked of him. If the Oline can't block on over 50% of his drop backs which is statistical fact you need to do something different.

Some players are rhythm players and Kirk may be one, when you don't throw the ball enough because you are running it so much or you can't get the pass off its hard to get into a rhythm.

But none of that takes away from the fact that Kirk can't seem to rise to the moment and make a play out of nothing (most of time) when they need him to He is just not a gamer like Case is/was. Case could innovate and try to make something happen, its just too bad his physical limitations wouldn't allow him to make all the throws he wanted to make.

So while Kirk seems to be getting blamed for everything if you look at things objectively it can't possibly be all on him, the coaching staff, the blocking and the receivers need to step up as well.

Read more: http://vikinghorn.proboards.com/thread/10035/zimmer-regrets-releasing-sloter#ixzz612NtFLTL

@"MarkSP18" said:

This team is on it's 4th OC and system in 4 years.Last year, with Cook out 6 of the first 8 weeks, the offense was still very productive and Thielen was setting records.But noooo, Zimmer wanted to run the dinosaur offense.So they fire JDF, who is now helping Minshew in Jacksonville, and promote Stefanski who has to be a "yes" man. Is it any wonder the skill players are upset?They are just high paid decoys.Cousins has thrown 99 passes in 4 games and people complain if he misses a deep one that has a 50% or less chance of success. The Vikings should use Cook like the Steelers used Bell and throw him more passes.They should never have him in to block because he is terrible at pass pro.He got blasted on the one play where Kirk fumbled.  That still is on Kirk but very very few posters mention Cook's whiff. Maybe Cousins is not the answer?  OK. But changing the OC and system every year is worse.

Case was magic avoiding the rush and creating his own passing rhythm. If you need a classic pocket and an offensive line to create your rhythm passing then your arm talent comes with an asterisk.

No one is going to argue Case had a better arm. Everyone argues about the results at the end of day and the money "go to" is that Case got lucky. He created a hell of a lot more luck in one game (not an NFCC game pun) than Cousins has over his entire Vikings career...

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"SFVikeFan" said: O-line is a separate issue, separate topic.

When Cousins had a clean pocket, clear view, he overshot Thielen.  I can think of other plays where the pocket was clean and he ran out of it.  

For $84 million, when you have a clean pocket and a guy open, those are the throws I expect him to hit.

I dont think so,  a shit OL creates shit QB play.  just because the beatings are constant doenst mean they dont have a negative affect on nearly every play.  That OL needs to improve by a long ways before KC should be expected to be comfortable in any pocket they create.

I have a lot of conflicting thoughts on the matter.  I don’t think Cousins is our long term
QB.  I don’t think we’ve surrounded him
or a 2020 rookie QB with an adequate OLine. 
I don’t think our playcalling or offensive gameplanning is adequate or
nuanced enough to work well against top defenses.  I think it’s a tall ask given Stefanski still
has less than a years worth of playcalling experience, and that the whole team only
has 3 games of experience within this system. 
I’d like to think that as they gain more experience, we’ll have more
success schematically.  I also don’t
think Cousins looks fully comfortable in this scheme.  I would hope that as time goes on he will be
audibling to get us out of bad looks into better ones.  I think Bradbury will develop over time into a
well rounded player, but we’ve ran into a few tough defenses to start his career
with.

I think my long term plans would revolve around Keeping
Zimmer, Kubiak, and Stefanski.  Don’t
care about Spielman either way.  I want
to see the offense have a year 2 in a system. 
Personnel-wise, I would draft a QB and OL with our top 2 picks.  Focus on upgrading the OLine.  We have to keep working on it until its top
half of the league in run and pass.  Start
Cousins and let the QB learn for a while. 
If I was Zimmer, I would focus all my efforts on being competitive in
these big road games that we seem to wilt in. 
I would also try to work on bringing in tone setters.  Guys who have that winners mentality.

Total shitshow by cousins---yes he isn't getting alot of time but where is the hot route when things break down.

effin case daniels knew enough to go to the hot routes

@"MarkSP18" said:

This team is on it's 4th OC and system in 4 years.Last year, with Cook out 6 of the first 8 weeks, the offense was still very productive and Thielen was setting records.But noooo, Zimmer wanted to run the dinosaur offense.So they fire JDF, who is now helping Minshew in Jacksonville, and promote Stefanski who has to be a "yes" man. Is it any wonder the skill players are upset?They are just high paid decoys.Cousins has thrown 99 passes in 4 games and people complain if he misses a deep one that has a 50% or less chance of success. The Vikings should use Cook like the Steelers used Bell and throw him more passes.They should never have him in to block because he is terrible at pass pro.He got blasted on the one play where Kirk fumbled.  That still is on Kirk but very very few posters mention Cook's whiff. Maybe Cousins is not the answer?  OK. But changing the OC and system every year is worse.

@"Jor-El" said:

@"pattersaur" said:

I don't know if Cousins has regressed or if he's still the same but it's pretty clear that whoever is in charge in Minnesota (it's been a revolving door on the offensive side), they aren't developing QBs very well.

As far as "blowing the thing up"... 100% NO!
A good QB could take this team, even with a bad o-line, to the Super Bowl. Look at the NY Giants. They put Daniel Jones in instead of Eli and they're a completely different team now. By swapping out one player (And they lost Barkley!).
Carolina is 2-0 with Kyle Allen, instead of an injured Cam Newton.

Gardner Minshew in Jacksonville!
None of these 3 teams are likely going to the Super Bowl but I'm just illustrating how you can swap one player and your entire fortunes can change.

We don't need a big roster churn, we need a good quarterback.

Sure - IN THEORY. If a great QB could step into this team next year, they could improve.
But wasn't that the idea of acquiring Kirk Cousins? Wasn't it the idea of acquiring Sam Bradford?
Other teams don't give up good QBs very often. Who do you think can step in? Sean Mannion? Maybe Eli Manning???
Our GM has tried to pick up a veteran QB, twice - more if you count Ponder, Bridgewater, Cassel, McNabb, TJack...
Time to draft a QB, and that means we use up another year or two of a roster that's aging.
Since Spielman isn't good at picking QBs, we need to move on from him.

@"pattersaur" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"pattersaur" said:

I don't know if Cousins has regressed or if he's still the same but it's pretty clear that whoever is in charge in Minnesota (it's been a revolving door on the offensive side), they aren't developing QBs very well.

As far as "blowing the thing up"... 100% NO!
A good QB could take this team, even with a bad o-line, to the Super Bowl. Look at the NY Giants. They put Daniel Jones in instead of Eli and they're a completely different team now. By swapping out one player (And they lost Barkley!).
Carolina is 2-0 with Kyle Allen, instead of an injured Cam Newton.

Gardner Minshew in Jacksonville!
None of these 3 teams are likely going to the Super Bowl but I'm just illustrating how you can swap one player and your entire fortunes can change.

We don't need a big roster churn, we need a good quarterback.

Sure - IN THEORY. If a great QB could step into this team next year, they could improve.
But wasn't that the idea of acquiring Kirk Cousins? Wasn't it the idea of acquiring Sam Bradford?
Other teams don't give up good QBs very often. Who do you think can step in? Sean Mannion? Maybe Eli Manning???
Our GM has tried to pick up a veteran QB, twice - more if you count Ponder, Bridgewater, Cassel, McNabb, TJack...
Time to draft a QB, and that means we use up another year or two of a roster that's aging.
Since Spielman isn't good at picking QBs, we need to move on from him.

Oh I absolutely agree. I'm all for drafting someone and if we don't I'll be pissed. I'm just saying we don't need to overhaul the whole roster in order to be a better team, like some seem to be suggesting or open too.
QB/OL/OL/WR/OL should be our draft this year. If the defense suffers because of that well, at least it'll be a new brand of suffering and not the same old pain.

@"silverjoel" said:

@"MarkSP18" said:

This team is on it's 4th OC and system in 4 years.Last year, with Cook out 6 of the first 8 weeks, the offense was still very productive and Thielen was setting records.But noooo, Zimmer wanted to run the dinosaur offense.So they fire JDF, who is now helping Minshew in Jacksonville, and promote Stefanski who has to be a "yes" man. Is it any wonder the skill players are upset?They are just high paid decoys.Cousins has thrown 99 passes in 4 games and people complain if he misses a deep one that has a 50% or less chance of success. The Vikings should use Cook like the Steelers used Bell and throw him more passes.They should never have him in to block because he is terrible at pass pro.He got blasted on the one play where Kirk fumbled.  That still is on Kirk but very very few posters mention Cook's whiff. Maybe Cousins is not the answer?  OK. But changing the OC and system every year is worse.

Cook is leading the Vikings with 15 receptions.  That's 23.4% of the Vikings' completions (15/64).  How much more do you want?

Since last season, I have been beating one drum louder than any others, when it comes to Cousins: THIS is the QB that Zimmer wanted.  He wanted one that wouldn't take chances and was a game-manager.  Cousins is a better thrower (which is different from quarter-backing) than he's shown; but I believe that Zimmer has told him not to take chances.  How many times have we seen KC throw a ball to a receiver that wasn't "wide" open?  Other QBs throw to spots and trust their receivers; Cousins throws to receivers.  Could be the same reason that Sloter was let go: because he was a gun-slinger, not a game-manager.  

Zimmer thinks his defense is good enough to win most games, as long as the QB doesn't turn the ball over.  And that is exactly how this offense has been constructed: to play ball-control football that doesn't turn the ball over.  If we had better pass-protection, we'd have fewer turnovers... but we still wouldn't have a "winning" offense.  Among the problems with this philosophy is the fact that our defense is not as good a Zim thinks it is. Chicago showed what a GREAT defense looks like.  And ours didn't look anything like it.  We couldn't get the Bears' offense off of the field.  That's not the offenses' fault.  I'm not making excuses for the offense when I say this: but how often does an offense get, like, 3 possessions in an entire half?  We moved the ball on one of them (and then Diggs fumbled the ball).  

I'm not saying we could've / would've / should've won the game (because Chicago was the better team); but I put this more on Zim and his failed philosophy (and his directives toward the offense- and Cousins in particular) than on Cousins, himself.  Chicago might be able to win with their defense... but they didn't go out and get a game-manager for QB.  Granted, Mitch isn't very good... but Daniels didn't play like a guy who was afraid to lose the game for his team.  Cousins did.