Carr buying

@"PurplePastor" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"NorthernCalVike" said: The lack of running game last year is why our Play Action just wasn't there, and I think thats what pissed Zimmer off so much and our OC was shown the door. And from what I heard and saw of Cousins in Washington was that he was excellent at selling the Play Action. But if you don't run the ball a lot, Defenses won't bite on it.

This is kind of crazy but the idea you need to run the ball to have an effective play action passing game is an urban myth. There is no correlation between PA success rate and rushing success rate, kind of strange. 

The reason play action wasn't there last season was because the Vikings were generally playing from behind when the threat of running the ball wasn't as great. PA passes suffer in those conditions since teams are trying to take away the intermediate and deep areas of the field and could care less if you want to run and keep the clock moving. Overall game conditions dictate PA effectiveness more than anything else. Here is an in-depth piece on it as well: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2019/play-action-passing-and-game-conditions

If you want to get away from analytics the reason the Bill Walsh coaching tree has had so much success with PA is due to their personnel groupings. This is subjective but if you look at what the Rams have done under McVay and what Kyle Shannahan has done both in ATL and SF the key to an offense is making every play look the same. If you can run, pass to all levels of the field, and run PA out of the same look you can really make it hard for the defense to prepare before the snap. Its the ultimate disguise of knowing what you're going to do while getting the defense to show their hand. The Rams offensive film vs. the Vikings last season was a great example of this. The Kubiak's will bring that to MN next season and personnel aside it should help the Vikings offense efficiency immediately.  

Sorry - not trying to disregard your post. I've done a lot of looking into PA passing league wide and have studied McVay's offense out of curiosity. 

I really appreciate your last full paragraph on subjectivity. I only played football in high school and shouldn't be able to predict the play with such accuracy just by seeing them line up. I will greatly welcome the ability to run many plays out of the same look.

@"StickyBun" said: Done debating and arguing the 'whys' of it all,  just win some football games. 

That's why I'm not excited by the original article or those like it. Zimmer said something about showing the baby not talk about the labor, right? But this offseason the needy offense has received nothing but a lot of talk about how the new coaches are going to spin straw into gold. Maybe just talk, but maybe it's the distraction for minimizing attention to the offense once again. That's not paranoia when a team has done it repeatedly.

@"Jor-El" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Done debating and arguing the 'whys' of it all,  just win some football games. 

That's why I'm not excited by the original article or those like it. Zimmer said something about showing the baby not talk about the labor, right? But this offseason the needy offense has received nothing but a lot of talk about how the new coaches are going to spin straw into gold. Maybe just talk, but maybe it's the distraction for minimizing attention to the offense once again. That's not paranoia when a team has done it repeatedly.

@"Jor-El" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Done debating and arguing the 'whys' of it all,  just win some football games. 

That's why I'm not excited by the original article or those like it. Zimmer said something about showing the baby not talk about the labor, right? But this offseason the needy offense has received nothing but a lot of talk about how the new coaches are going to spin straw into gold. Maybe just talk, but maybe it's the distraction for minimizing attention to the offense once again. That's not paranoia when a team has done it repeatedly.

@"FSUVike" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Done debating and arguing the 'whys' of it all,  just win some football games. 

That's why I'm not excited by the original article or those like it. Zimmer said something about showing the baby not talk about the labor, right? But this offseason the needy offense has received nothing but a lot of talk about how the new coaches are going to spin straw into gold. Maybe just talk, but maybe it's the distraction for minimizing attention to the offense once again. That's not paranoia when a team has done it repeatedly.

But what exactly where they going to do that didn't happen? They swung and missed on Zeitler. The OL guys that got inked where absolutely one of the weakest vs. how well they got paid that I've ever seen.

So maybe Rick should have jettisoned Barr and Griff to sign some League Average dudes or older players to big deals? Saffold was about the only FA that was a clear cut upgrade. Paradis too. Everything else was teams swapping Easton, Remmers and Compton level players.

Context matters. Yes, Rick allowed the Line to get to this point and does not get a pass for it. But the solution simply was not in this craptastic FA pool. I'm not going to penalize him for not panicking and signing middle of the road guys to big deals that hurts other parts of the team long-term.

That's the thing, though. Other than NE or Pittsburgh how many teams are actually consistently good year in and year out?

It's pretty normal for a chunk of the previous years' Playoff Teams to not make it back the next.

From NFCCG to missing the Playoffs to back in it seems like a standard thing to expect in the NFL.

Geoff keeps saying this but I'm not sure folks are listening: the team under-performed to their talent.  Many factors including a bad fit at OC and crappy O-Line and clubhouse leader on Defense actually having a mental breakdown. Zimmer overcomplicating his D scheme for half the year. Tony's replacements being in over their head.

If Stefanski can't cut it Kubiak is in the wings. Line will hopefully improve via the Draft. Griff recovered but also has a successor pushing him. The D righted the ship for the most part during the 2nd half of the season. Dennison is a proven O-Line Coach.

If Rick and Mike don't make it work this year they're gone. But the talent is good enough that all they really need to do is not F it up.

I'll go on record right now and predict Minnesota gets back to the NFCCG next year. And gets annihilated. Again. Cuz that's what the scriptwriters want for this franchise.

@"FSUVike" said: That's the thing, though. Other than NE or Pittsburgh how many teams are actually consistently good year in and year out?

It's pretty normal for a chunk of the previous years' Playoff Teams to not make it back the next.

From NFCCG to missing the Playoffs to back in it seems like a standard thing to expect in the NFL.

Geoff keeps saying this but I'm not sure folks are listening: the team under-performed to their talent.  Many factors including a bad fit at OC and crappy O-Line and clubhouse leader on Defense actually having a mental breakdown. Zimmer overcomplicating his D scheme for half the year. Tony's replacements being in over their head.

If Stefanski can't cut it Kubiak is in the wings. Line will hopefully improve via the Draft. Griff recovered but also has a successor pushing him. The D righted the ship for the most part during the 2nd half of the season. Dennison is a proven O-Line Coach.

If Rick and Mike don't make it work this year they're gone. But the talent is good enough that all they really need to do is not F it up.

I'll go on record right now and predict Minnesota gets back to the NFCCG next year. And gets annihilated. Again. Cuz that's what the scriptwriters want for this franchise.

FSU, I don't know that they could have done much more yet in the offseason - but I don't care about the cheerleading articles. There are still things to be done (draft mostly) and sometimes these articles are preparatory excuses for things like...oh, drafting a CB first.
I would have let Griffen go; even if it did not lead to much opportunity to sign anyone, it allows a bit of breathing room in exchange for an aging underperformer who has replacement options on the roster. Will his successor be allowed to push him, or will Zimmer keep young talent on the bench? I'm really concerned the attitude is just too relaxed, especially on that defensive unit. These guys needed some wakeup/reminder they are playing to save their beloved coach's job. Or are they? You say Rick and Mike are gone after this year if they don't make it work. We'll see if that's true. I kind of suspect the Wilfs had a dream of building a new stadium and winning a Super Bowl in it. Now that dream passed and I think their attention has drifted and they may accept average results.

@"FSUVike" said: That's the thing, though. Other than NE or Pittsburgh how many teams are actually consistently good year in and year out?

It's pretty normal for a chunk of the previous years' Playoff Teams to not make it back the next.

From NFCCG to missing the Playoffs to back in it seems like a standard thing to expect in the NFL.

Geoff keeps saying this but I'm not sure folks are listening: the team under-performed to their talent.  Many factors including a bad fit at OC and crappy O-Line and clubhouse leader on Defense actually having a mental breakdown. Zimmer overcomplicating his D scheme for half the year. Tony's replacements being in over their head.

If Stefanski can't cut it Kubiak is in the wings. Line will hopefully improve via the Draft. Griff recovered but also has a successor pushing him. The D righted the ship for the most part during the 2nd half of the season. Dennison is a proven O-Line Coach.

If Rick and Mike don't make it work this year they're gone. But the talent is good enough that all they really need to do is not F it up.

I'll go on record right now and predict Minnesota gets back to the NFCCG next year. And gets annihilated. Again. Cuz that's what the scriptwriters want for this franchise.

Preach it. The Vikings got caught up in their own success from 2017, made the flashy FA move add Cousins, and were coming off a season as the leagues #1 defense. But they lacked the ability to handle success. Some of that is the players, some of that is the coaches, the schedule also had a lot to do with it. At the end of the day everyone was to blame. 

But although there is always a sour taste in everyone's mouth from 2018 this is still one of the better rosters in the NFC. People tend to over-correct on their opinions after a poor season. Albeit there are some questions they still have a top 10 defense, a pro bowl RB when healthy, and two pro bowl WR's. 

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"FSUVike" said: That's the thing, though. Other than NE or Pittsburgh how many teams are actually consistently good year in and year out?

It's pretty normal for a chunk of the previous years' Playoff Teams to not make it back the next.

From NFCCG to missing the Playoffs to back in it seems like a standard thing to expect in the NFL.

Geoff keeps saying this but I'm not sure folks are listening: the team under-performed to their talent.  Many factors including a bad fit at OC and crappy O-Line and clubhouse leader on Defense actually having a mental breakdown. Zimmer overcomplicating his D scheme for half the year. Tony's replacements being in over their head.

If Stefanski can't cut it Kubiak is in the wings. Line will hopefully improve via the Draft. Griff recovered but also has a successor pushing him. The D righted the ship for the most part during the 2nd half of the season. Dennison is a proven O-Line Coach.

If Rick and Mike don't make it work this year they're gone. But the talent is good enough that all they really need to do is not F it up.

I'll go on record right now and predict Minnesota gets back to the NFCCG next year. And gets annihilated. Again. Cuz that's what the scriptwriters want for this franchise.

Preach it. The Vikings got caught up in their own success from 2017, made the flashy FA move add Cousins, and were coming off a season as the leagues #1 defense. But they lacked the ability to handle success. Some of that is the players, some of that is the coaches, the schedule also had a lot to do with it. At the end of the day everyone was to blame. 

But although there is always a sour taste in everyone's mouth from 2018 this is still one of the better rosters in the NFC. People tend to over-correct on their opinions after a poor season. Albeit there are some questions they still have a top 10 defense, a pro bowl RB when healthy, and two pro bowl WR's. 

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"FSUVike" said: That's the thing, though. Other than NE or Pittsburgh how many teams are actually consistently good year in and year out?

It's pretty normal for a chunk of the previous years' Playoff Teams to not make it back the next.

From NFCCG to missing the Playoffs to back in it seems like a standard thing to expect in the NFL.

Geoff keeps saying this but I'm not sure folks are listening: the team under-performed to their talent.  Many factors including a bad fit at OC and crappy O-Line and clubhouse leader on Defense actually having a mental breakdown. Zimmer overcomplicating his D scheme for half the year. Tony's replacements being in over their head.

If Stefanski can't cut it Kubiak is in the wings. Line will hopefully improve via the Draft. Griff recovered but also has a successor pushing him. The D righted the ship for the most part during the 2nd half of the season. Dennison is a proven O-Line Coach.

If Rick and Mike don't make it work this year they're gone. But the talent is good enough that all they really need to do is not F it up.

I'll go on record right now and predict Minnesota gets back to the NFCCG next year. And gets annihilated. Again. Cuz that's what the scriptwriters want for this franchise.

Preach it. The Vikings got caught up in their own success from 2017, made the flashy FA move add Cousins, and were coming off a season as the leagues #1 defense. But they lacked the ability to handle success. Some of that is the players, some of that is the coaches, the schedule also had a lot to do with it. At the end of the day everyone was to blame. 

But although there is always a sour taste in everyone's mouth from 2018 this is still one of the better rosters in the NFC. People tend to over-correct on their opinions after a poor season. Albeit there are some questions they still have a top 10 defense, a pro bowl RB when healthy, and two pro bowl WR's. 

I'll go with your general premise of having the potential to perform better than in 2018, but on one of your points --
  "a pro bowl RB when healthy"
-- you're mixing potential into the story when every other element is someone who has proven NFL production. Cook has played 15 games and has 969 rushing yards, 1364 total yards, and 2 100+ games. Injuries, bad offensive coordinator, weak line - sure, those were factors. But he's rarely been a significant factor and is still just unproven potential. Up to this point, he's no better than the 7th-best RB drafted in 2017, after Hunt, Mixon, Kamara, McCaffrey, Conner, and Fournette (maybe 8th if you consider Tarik Cohen a RB).
Vikings have been counting on Cook for 2 years and IMO he's still a huge and incredibly critical question mark for 2019. No Latavius Murray safety net this year either.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"FSUVike" said: That's the thing, though. Other than NE or Pittsburgh how many teams are actually consistently good year in and year out?

It's pretty normal for a chunk of the previous years' Playoff Teams to not make it back the next.

From NFCCG to missing the Playoffs to back in it seems like a standard thing to expect in the NFL.

Geoff keeps saying this but I'm not sure folks are listening: the team under-performed to their talent.  Many factors including a bad fit at OC and crappy O-Line and clubhouse leader on Defense actually having a mental breakdown. Zimmer overcomplicating his D scheme for half the year. Tony's replacements being in over their head.

If Stefanski can't cut it Kubiak is in the wings. Line will hopefully improve via the Draft. Griff recovered but also has a successor pushing him. The D righted the ship for the most part during the 2nd half of the season. Dennison is a proven O-Line Coach.

If Rick and Mike don't make it work this year they're gone. But the talent is good enough that all they really need to do is not F it up.

I'll go on record right now and predict Minnesota gets back to the NFCCG next year. And gets annihilated. Again. Cuz that's what the scriptwriters want for this franchise.

Preach it. The Vikings got caught up in their own success from 2017, made the flashy FA move add Cousins, and were coming off a season as the leagues #1 defense. But they lacked the ability to handle success. Some of that is the players, some of that is the coaches, the schedule also had a lot to do with it. At the end of the day everyone was to blame. 

But although there is always a sour taste in everyone's mouth from 2018 this is still one of the better rosters in the NFC. People tend to over-correct on their opinions after a poor season. Albeit there are some questions they still have a top 10 defense, a pro bowl RB when healthy, and two pro bowl WR's. 

I'll go with your general premise of having the potential to perform better than in 2018, but on one of your points --
  "a pro bowl RB when healthy"
-- you're mixing potential into the story when every other element is someone who has proven NFL production. Cook has played 15 games and has 969 rushing yards, 1364 total yards, and 2 100+ games. Injuries, bad offensive coordinator, weak line - sure, those were factors. But he's rarely been a significant factor and is still just unproven potential. Up to this point, he's no better than the 7th-best RB drafted in 2017, after Hunt, Mixon, Kamara, McCaffrey, Conner, and Fournette (maybe 8th if you consider Tarik Cohen a RB).
Vikings have been counting on Cook for 2 years and IMO he's still a huge and incredibly critical question mark for 2019. No Latavius Murray safety net this year either.

The only question mark about Cook is his ability to stay healthy. It's pretty obvious he's a top-level talent in the games he's played healthy. 

Still recovering but more importantly, in desperate need of an effective offensive line and scheme.

I warned you all before the draft, better player than Warrick.Dunn by a good bit but always dinged up. I'd honestly get him a running mate like the Falcons have with Freeman and Coleman.

@"Jor-El" said:

IDK...wasn't he fully healthy after October? 517 yards in the last 8 games -that's pretty good, would be just over 1,000 for a full season. But I wouldn't call it top-level. Maybe above-average, but he always looked like he was close to breaking a big gain but didn't quite do it. Still recovering? Let's hope so. 

In that span, he wasn't given very many rushing opportunities though...  in 6 out of those 8 games he had 13 or less rushing attempts.

If you want a better barometer for his talent...  last season when Cook touched the ball 17+ times per game, he averaged 111 scrimmage yards.

In 2017, he played in 4 games before he tore his ACL and had two 100+ yard scrimmage games and was well on his way to 100+ against Detroit before he got hurt.

It's perfectly fine to have doubts about his ability to stay healthy and play a full 16 games...  THAT is a legit argument.  But his on-the-field production would put him near the top of the league if he played a full season.

@"Wetlander" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

IDK...wasn't he fully healthy after October? 517 yards in the last 8 games -that's pretty good, would be just over 1,000 for a full season. But I wouldn't call it top-level. Maybe above-average, but he always looked like he was close to breaking a big gain but didn't quite do it. Still recovering? Let's hope so. 

In that span, he wasn't given very many rushing opportunities though...  in 6 out of those 8 games he had 13 or less rushing attempts.

If you want a better barometer for his talent...  last season when Cook touched the ball 17+ times per game, he averaged 111 scrimmage yards.

In 2017, he played in 4 games before he tore his ACL and had two 100+ yard scrimmage games and was well on his way to 100+ against Detroit before he got hurt.

It's perfectly fine to have doubts about his ability to stay healthy and play a full 16 games...  THAT is a legit argument.  But his on-the-field production would put him near the top of the league if he played a full season.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

IDK...wasn't he fully healthy after October? 517 yards in the last 8 games -that's pretty good, would be just over 1,000 for a full season. But I wouldn't call it top-level. Maybe above-average, but he always looked like he was close to breaking a big gain but didn't quite do it. Still recovering? Let's hope so. 

In that span, he wasn't given very many rushing opportunities though...  in 6 out of those 8 games he had 13 or less rushing attempts.

If you want a better barometer for his talent...  last season when Cook touched the ball 17+ times per game, he averaged 111 scrimmage yards.

In 2017, he played in 4 games before he tore his ACL and had two 100+ yard scrimmage games and was well on his way to 100+ against Detroit before he got hurt.

It's perfectly fine to have doubts about his ability to stay healthy and play a full 16 games...  THAT is a legit argument.  But his on-the-field production would put him near the top of the league if he played a full season.

Yeah, I don't get the argument that we don't know what kind of talent he is. We have eyes. He's a very talented runner and receiver. He's actually a pretty decent blocker too. 

If he can stay healthy on a team almost "angrily" committed to the run, in an outside zone designed by a man who turned a half dozen schmucks into stars, I like his chances. 

Maybe they see what potential is there if we solve the oline issue---frees him up to run or catch or freeze a D a little more in all situations