Carr buying

@"MaroonBells" said:

“I think he’ll be able to find ways to get Stefon and Adam and those guys involved,” Carr said. “And obviously with the run game. That’s going to be the biggest difference I think you’ll see – the run game’s going to really improve.” Carr believes that Vikings running back Dalvin Cook will be “perfect” for the type of offense that Kubiak and Stefanski will implement under Head Coach Mike Zimmer in 2019. He pointed out that Kubiak’s teams often lead the league in under-center snaps. That’s a good thing, Carr said. “It’s good for play-action. The Rams utilized a lot of that, and Sean McVay’s kind of from that same tree,” Carr said. “I think Dalvin’s going to flourish in this system.” He emphasized his belief that Minnesota will field an offensive line well-suited for that system. “It might not be fancy names,” Carr said. “ guys where you scratch your head in Minnesota and say, ‘Why are they bringing this guy in?’ It’s just to fit that system,” Carr reminded. “They’re going to be athletic and be able to move and play multiple positions, but that offensive line will turn into one of the strengths of the team, just based on the scheme that they run. “I’m high on Minnesota,” he added. “I think it’s going to be exciting to watch them play offensive football.”

https://www.vikings.com/news/david-carr-shares-experience-with-kubiak-weighs-in-on-vikings-offense

The lack of running game last year is why our Play Action just wasn't there, and I think thats what pissed Zimmer off so much and our OC was shown the door. And from what I heard and saw of Cousins in Washington was that he was excellent at selling the Play Action. But if you don't run the ball a lot, Defenses won't bite on it.

@"NorthernCalVike" said: The lack of running game last year is why our Play Action just wasn't there, and I think thats what pissed Zimmer off so much and our OC was shown the door. And from what I heard and saw of Cousins in Washington was that he was excellent at selling the Play Action. But if you don't run the ball a lot, Defenses won't bite on it.

And does the disconnect go back further? Tony wanted guys that could smack D-Linemen around, which he hoped Willie Beavers could do.

Is the deeper rooted problem Mike Zimmer wanting a Run-First team but not having any input into how it's built? Or having input but not sticking to one system? Or Rick constantly supplying diverse pieces that don't consistently fit one system?

Honestly, the truth is probably a little bit of all of the above plus factors not even discussed here to date.

Another truth is that Minnesota was Top 10 in rushing 2 years ago. But also like Top 3 in rushing attempts. That's a commitment to running the ball that D-Flip didn't adhere to last year. Is it because he was bad at being an OC? Because he lost his O-Line Coach tragically? Is it because Tony's replacements weren't capable? Or because Rick counted on Remmers not sucking at Guard or Compton not sucking period? 

Why trade for Brent and leave him on the bench after Elf returned? Why couldn't Izzy get a sniff to replace Compton? How did Gossett not displace other guys in front of him?

I don't have these answers. Here's what I do know. Kirk Cousins was Shanahan's target when he went to SanFran. He had a great Play Action game in Washington, where the team had lesser Receivers and Runners but inarguably better Linemen and Tight End threats, though that Line was seldom healthy to the point that TJ Clemmings was their starting Tackle for a while.

A lot of talk about Rick, Kirk, etc., not performong. And it is absolutely freaking justified. Not enough talk about Mike and his OC Carousel and schizophrenic approach to being a Run First Team IMO.

Done debating and arguing the 'whys' of it all,  just win some football games. 

There's lots of uncertainty this year. Far less enthusiasm from my perspective as well. Last year at this time I was expecting a contender. I don't have that feel today. As FSU stated there was alot of things that went wrong or were poorly planned for. So now it this new enthusiasm for Kubiak’s offense or is it Stefanski's??? That has me a bit worried actually. Hoping there's not too many cooks in the kitchen. We have had several years of indecisiveness and lack of continuity at the OC position. I have to see this two headed approach in action before I'm convinced. We do need a focused attack not more second guessing.

Unless lady luck takes another dump on the Vikings, I fully expect this to be a "bounce-back" year with a spot in the post-season dance. 

@"purplefaithful" said: Unless lady luck takes another dump on the Vikings, I fully expect this to be a "bounce-back" year with a spot in the post-season dance. 

If the front office really takes a serious effort to address the offensive line, I tend to agree with you on this.

@"StickyBun" said: Done debating and arguing the 'whys' of it all,  just win some football games. 

@"purplefaithful" said: Unless lady luck takes another dump on the Vikings, I fully expect this to be a "bounce-back" year with a spot in the post-season dance. 

I don't trust the OL at all, and the DL was pushed around way too often.  I doubt either of those things change for next year.  Hope I'm wrong.

@"HappyViking" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Done debating and arguing the 'whys' of it all,  just win some football games. 

Yep, I'll believe this is a winning team when I see it.  I'm really down on the Vikes right now.  They didn't improved anywhere this off-season from last talent wise.  Maybe we'll get a bunch of new rookies that changes the team?  How often does that happen, almost never?

@"purplefaithful" said: Unless lady luck takes another dump on the Vikings, I fully expect this to be a "bounce-back" year with a spot in the post-season dance. 

I wish I shared those feelings, pf.  The way the Vikings were manhandled by the Bears in those two games really opened my eyes to the reality that this team isn't a playoff team. 

I don't trust the OL at all, and the DL was pushed arouind way too often.  I doubt either of those things change for next year.  Hope I'm wrong.

@"NorthernCalVike" said: The lack of running game last year is why our Play Action just wasn't there, and I think thats what pissed Zimmer off so much and our OC was shown the door. And from what I heard and saw of Cousins in Washington was that he was excellent at selling the Play Action. But if you don't run the ball a lot, Defenses won't bite on it.

Percentage of play action plays with Cousins as QB (play callers):

2015 - Was - 19% (McVay)
2016 - Was - 18% (McVay)
2017 - Was - 21% (Gruden)
2018 - Min - 21% (Deflip & Stephanski)

Edit: that's per football outsiders

Carr has typically been down on the Vikings, so I was surprised to hear this take. 
A change in philosophy and scheme can work as evidenced by the success Shurmur had with a fairly mediocre offensive line and backup quarterback and running back. But Shurmur was a gifted OC,who I would rate right up there with the likes of Burns and Billick.
It remains to be seen if the Stephanski , Kubiak influenced offensive system can plug in cast off free agent linemen, who quite frankly, I had never heard of, and turn a pigs ear into a silk purse.
While I appreciate Carr's optomism and remain hopeful, I am still rather skeptical.

@"StickyBun" said: Done debating and arguing the 'whys' of it all,  just win some football games. 

@"NorthernCalVike" said: The lack of running game last year is why our Play Action just wasn't there, and I think thats what pissed Zimmer off so much and our OC was shown the door. And from what I heard and saw of Cousins in Washington was that he was excellent at selling the Play Action. But if you don't run the ball a lot, Defenses won't bite on it.

The reason play action wasn't there last season was because the Vikings were generally playing from behind when the threat of running the ball wasn't as great. PA passes suffer in those conditions since teams are trying to take away the intermediate and deep areas of the field and could care less if you want to run and keep the clock moving. Overall game conditions dictate PA effectiveness more than anything else. Here is an in-depth piece on it as well: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2019/play-action-passing-and-game-conditions

If you want to get away from analytics the reason the Bill Walsh coaching tree has had so much success with PA is due to their personnel groupings. This is subjective but if you look at what the Rams have done under McVay and what Kyle Shannahan has done both in ATL and SF the key to an offense is making every play look the same. If you can run, pass to all levels of the field, and run PA out of the same look you can really make it hard for the defense to prepare before the snap. Its the ultimate disguise of knowing what you're going to do while getting the defense to show their hand. The Rams offensive film vs. the Vikings last season was a great example of this. The Kubiak's will bring that to MN next season and personnel aside it should help the Vikings offense efficiency immediately.  

Sorry - not trying to disregard your post. I've done a lot of looking into PA passing league wide and have studied McVay's offense out of curiosity. 

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"NorthernCalVike" said: The lack of running game last year is why our Play Action just wasn't there, and I think thats what pissed Zimmer off so much and our OC was shown the door. And from what I heard and saw of Cousins in Washington was that he was excellent at selling the Play Action. But if you don't run the ball a lot, Defenses won't bite on it.

This is kind of crazy but the idea you need to run the ball to have an effective play action passing game is an urban myth. There is no correlation between PA success rate and rushing success rate, kind of strange. 

The reason play action wasn't there last season was because the Vikings were generally playing from behind when the threat of running the ball wasn't as great. PA passes suffer in those conditions since teams are trying to take away the intermediate and deep areas of the field and could care less if you want to run and keep the clock moving. Overall game conditions dictate PA effectiveness more than anything else. Here is an in-depth piece on it as well: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2019/play-action-passing-and-game-conditions

If you want to get away from analytics the reason the Bill Walsh coaching tree has had so much success with PA is due to their personnel groupings. This is subjective but if you look at what the Rams have done under McVay and what Kyle Shannahan has done both in ATL and SF the key to an offense is making every play look the same. If you can run, pass to all levels of the field, and run PA out of the same look you can really make it hard for the defense to prepare before the snap. Its the ultimate disguise of knowing what you're going to do while getting the defense to show their hand. The Rams offensive film vs. the Vikings last season was a great example of this. The Kubiak's will bring that to MN next season and personnel aside it should help the Vikings offense efficiency immediately.  

Sorry - not trying to disregard your post. I've done a lot of looking into PA passing league wide and have studied McVay's offense out of curiosity. 

@"purplefaithful" said: Unless lady luck takes another dump on the Vikings, I fully expect this to be a "bounce-back" year with a spot in the post-season dance. 

@"FSUVike" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Done debating and arguing the 'whys' of it all,  just win some football games. 

Ha! Fool me once...

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"purplefaithful" said: Unless lady luck takes another dump on the Vikings, I fully expect this to be a "bounce-back" year with a spot in the post-season dance. 

It should be. I'll be more (or less) confident in that once I see our draft and what we add between the draft and training camp. So many questions. Does the draft fall right for us? Do we have Waynes? Who's our starting 3T? Who's our starting left guard? Does O'Neill move? Is Reiff even on the team? Who's our 3rd receiver? In either case, the core of a very good team is still there. 

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"NorthernCalVike" said: The lack of running game last year is why our Play Action just wasn't there, and I think thats what pissed Zimmer off so much and our OC was shown the door. And from what I heard and saw of Cousins in Washington was that he was excellent at selling the Play Action. But if you don't run the ball a lot, Defenses won't bite on it.

This is kind of crazy but the idea you need to run the ball to have an effective play action passing game is an urban myth. There is no correlation between PA success rate and rushing success rate, kind of strange. 

The reason play action wasn't there last season was because the Vikings were generally playing from behind when the threat of running the ball wasn't as great. PA passes suffer in those conditions since teams are trying to take away the intermediate and deep areas of the field and could care less if you want to run and keep the clock moving. Overall game conditions dictate PA effectiveness more than anything else. Here is an in-depth piece on it as well: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2019/play-action-passing-and-game-conditions

If you want to get away from analytics the reason the Bill Walsh coaching tree has had so much success with PA is due to their personnel groupings. This is subjective but if you look at what the Rams have done under McVay and what Kyle Shannahan has done both in ATL and SF the key to an offense is making every play look the same. If you can run, pass to all levels of the field, and run PA out of the same look you can really make it hard for the defense to prepare before the snap. Its the ultimate disguise of knowing what you're going to do while getting the defense to show their hand. The Rams offensive film vs. the Vikings last season was a great example of this. The Kubiak's will bring that to MN next season and personnel aside it should help the Vikings offense efficiency immediately.  

Sorry - not trying to disregard your post. I've done a lot of looking into PA passing league wide and have studied McVay's offense out of curiosity. 

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"purplefaithful" said: Unless lady luck takes another dump on the Vikings, I fully expect this to be a "bounce-back" year with a spot in the post-season dance. 

It should be. I'll be more (or less) confident in that once I see our draft and what we add between the draft and training camp. So many questions. Does the draft fall right for us? Do we have Waynes? Who's our starting 3T? Who's our starting left guard? Does O'Neill move? Is Reiff even on the team? Who's our 3rd receiver? In either case, the core of a very good team is still there. 

This is the part that everyone forgets. The roster underachieved last year, even losing a few pieces leaves them with one of the better rosters in the NFL. It just comes down to playing up to their talent level which not even the draft will dictate. 

@"jargomcfargo" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"purplefaithful" said: Unless lady luck takes another dump on the Vikings, I fully expect this to be a "bounce-back" year with a spot in the post-season dance. 

It should be. I'll be more (or less) confident in that once I see our draft and what we add between the draft and training camp. So many questions. Does the draft fall right for us? Do we have Waynes? Who's our starting 3T? Who's our starting left guard? Does O'Neill move? Is Reiff even on the team? Who's our 3rd receiver? In either case, the core of a very good team is still there. 

This is the part that everyone forgets. The roster underachieved last year, even losing a few pieces leaves them with one of the better rosters in the NFL. It just comes down to playing up to their talent level which not even the draft will dictate. 

Apologies first, and no offense intended. Nothing but respect really. But the essentially .500 roster last year, that under achieved, has not been been changed much in the off season. 
I have to ask myself why they under achieved.
The two things that I saw last year, were a Zimmer defense that played a lot more passive defense, with less man coverage, which I think is the strength of Zimmer's defense, and a QB who isn't great under adversity. I fear this will get worse with the new rule change.
Yes Cousins has decent stats, but he became check down Charlie at the end of the season.
I hope I'm wrong. But for me, in the back of my mind, this bothers me and is likely independent of any roster moves.