Don't be surprised if the Vikings pass on Cody Ford

Good insight! I think you are on to something or on something. ;)
I do believe they will value those OL who fit their parameters to the point of reaching a little, given their current OL situation. 

I hate the idea of "reaching" but we NEED at least 1 starter on the OL this draft.  It has to happen.  So whether that be in round 1 or 2 we have to find that guy who we think can get it done this year. 

Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more
than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we
started the worst guard tandem in the league. 
You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under
our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as
last year.  Last year we didn’t draft a
guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT.  This year, I would hope that even if we don’t
take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and
getting stuck with the leftovers.

@"MaroonBells" said: Last year the Vikings could have taken Will Hernandez, but decided to pass. We all speculated that Hernandez was not an athleticism fit--a zone fit. That seems to have been confirmed by comments made recently by Mike Zimmer, who, referring to last year's draft, said something like "if he doesn't fit your scheme, he doesn't help you." It's pretty obvious that he was defending the Vikings choice to pass on Hernandez to the frustration of many fans, myself included.

Now we all know the Vikings have certain size and athleticism parameters for every position. I don't know what they are (maybe Geoff does?) But I know for offensive line, the 3-cone is typically the key metric. So how do the two compare?

Cody Ford

6-4, 329, 34-inch arms

40-5.21, BP-19, Vert-28.5, Broad-104, 3-cone-8.27, shuttle-4.87

Will Hernandez

6-2, 327, 32-inch arms

40-5.15, BP-37, Vert-24, Broad-104, 3-cone-7.59, shuttle-4.7

Just saying....might be a good idea to lock up your sharp objects on draft night.

Some very good cone and shuttle times: Bradbury, Dillard, Lindstrom, McGary, Risner. Some bad ones: Jonah, Ford, McCoy, Howard (last two surprised me).

@"AGRforever" said: I hate the idea of "reaching" but we NEED at least 1 starter on the OL this draft.  It has to happen.  So whether that be in round 1 or 2 we have to find that guy who we think can get it done this year. 

In other words, it could be very tempting for the Vikings if a 3T like Gary or Oliver drops to 18, but if we go that route, the OL we end up with may not be the plug and play starter we're all hoping for. 

@"medaille" said: Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we started the worst guard tandem in the league.  You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as last year.  Last year we didn’t draft a guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT.  This year, I would hope that even if we don’t take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and getting stuck with the leftovers.

Everyone always cites Will Hernandez as the possible alternative to Mike Hughes, but why not Braden Smith? Chosen #37, started all the Colts' games at RT, graded higher than Hernandez, probably a better fit in ZBS, would have fit the Vikings' alleged height requirements. Imagine if the Vikings had picked Smith #1 and O'Neill #2: bookend OTs for the next decade with a lot of flexibility (like moving Reiff inside).
It seems like fans fall in love with the powerful drive blockers who get a lot of pancake blocks in their highlight reels.

@"MaroonBells" said: Last year the Vikings could have taken Will Hernandez, but decided to pass. We all speculated that Hernandez was not an athleticism fit--a zone fit. That seems to have been confirmed by comments made recently by Mike Zimmer, who, referring to last year's draft, said something like "if he doesn't fit your scheme, he doesn't help you." It's pretty obvious that he was defending the Vikings choice to pass on Hernandez to the frustration of many fans, myself included.

Now we all know the Vikings have certain size and athleticism parameters for every position. I don't know what they are (maybe Geoff does?) But I know for offensive line, the 3-cone is typically the key metric. So how do the two compare?

Cody Ford

6-4, 329, 34-inch arms

40-5.21, BP-19, Vert-28.5, Broad-104, 3-cone-8.27, shuttle-4.87

Will Hernandez

6-2, 327, 32-inch arms

40-5.15, BP-37, Vert-24, Broad-104, 3-cone-7.59, shuttle-4.7

Just saying....might be a good idea to lock up your sharp objects on draft night.

Some very good cone and shuttle times: Bradbury, Dillard, Lindstrom, McGary, Risner. Some bad ones: Jonah, Ford, McCoy, Howard (last two surprised me).

Aside from the physical traits they tend to put players who have an above average ability to play with leverage above their thresholds. Look at Elflein who's athletic profile was terrible but was a great wrestler. 

Last year my hunch pre-draft was that Hernandez wasn't a fit due to his lack of length. He also wasn't as athletic on tape. I would tend to think Cody Ford is on the line but will meet their length thresholds and his 40 time will offset his awful 3-cone. This would be especially true if they classify him as a guard. He also is opposite of Hernandez since he appears more athletic on tape than he tested. 

@"MaroonBells" said: Last year the Vikings could have taken Will Hernandez, but decided to pass. We all speculated that Hernandez was not an athleticism fit--a zone fit. That seems to have been confirmed by comments made recently by Mike Zimmer, who, referring to last year's draft, said something like "if he doesn't fit your scheme, he doesn't help you." It's pretty obvious that he was defending the Vikings choice to pass on Hernandez to the frustration of many fans, myself included.

Now we all know the Vikings have certain size and athleticism parameters for every position. I don't know what they are (maybe Geoff does?) But I know for offensive line, the 3-cone is typically the key metric. So how do the two compare?

Cody Ford

6-4, 329, 34-inch arms

40-5.21, BP-19, Vert-28.5, Broad-104, 3-cone-8.27, shuttle-4.87

Will Hernandez

6-2, 327, 32-inch arms

40-5.15, BP-37, Vert-24, Broad-104, 3-cone-7.59, shuttle-4.7

Just saying....might be a good idea to lock up your sharp objects on draft night.

Some very good cone and shuttle times: Bradbury, Dillard, Lindstrom, McGary, Risner. Some bad ones: Jonah, Ford, McCoy, Howard (last two surprised me).

personally I am still more of an eyeball guy,  but metrics like the cone and shuttle drills are really telling for me about how explosive an athlete is.  40 times and bench presses dont mean much to me as long as they arent glaringly bad... give me game tape IMO.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"medaille" said: Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we started the worst guard tandem in the league.  You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as last year.  Last year we didn’t draft a guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT.  This year, I would hope that even if we don’t take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and getting stuck with the leftovers.

I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT,  he was adequate at best.   ONeill was good and in some games very damn good.  that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.

@"medaille" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"medaille" said: Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we started the worst guard tandem in the league.  You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as last year.  Last year we didn’t draft a guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT.  This year, I would hope that even if we don’t take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and getting stuck with the leftovers.

I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT,  he was adequate at best.   ONeill was good and in some games very damn good.  that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.

Remmers 2017 PFF at RT:  72.1, #36 T

O’Neill 2018 PFF at RT: 
63.0, #50 T

 

Berger 2017 PFF at RG: 
77.6, #18 G

Remmers 2018 PFF at RG: 
59.2, #48 G

Hernandez 2018 PFF at LG: 
65.8, #21 G

 

PFF very clearly considers O’Neill a downgrade from Remmers
at RT, but I think you can project him as an upgrade in the future as he gains
strength and experience, I consider that a lateral move.

Moving Remmers to RG downgraded 2 positions and that’s 40%
of the unit that cost us the 2018 season.

Just going by PFF’s numbers we downgraded 27.5 points from
2017 to 2018 (Not including Hill).  With
Hernandez at RG and Remmers at RT, we would have downgraded by 11.8 points.

@"medaille" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"medaille" said: Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we started the worst guard tandem in the league.  You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as last year.  Last year we didn’t draft a guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT.  This year, I would hope that even if we don’t take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and getting stuck with the leftovers.

I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT,  he was adequate at best.   ONeill was good and in some games very damn good.  that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.

Remmers 2017 PFF at RT:  72.1, #36 T

O’Neill 2018 PFF at RT: 
63.0, #50 T

 

Berger 2017 PFF at RG: 
77.6, #18 G

Remmers 2018 PFF at RG: 
59.2, #48 G

Hernandez 2018 PFF at LG: 
65.8, #21 G

 

PFF very clearly considers O’Neill a downgrade from Remmers
at RT, but I think you can project him as an upgrade in the future as he gains
strength and experience, I consider that a lateral move.

Moving Remmers to RG downgraded 2 positions and that’s 40%
of the unit that cost us the 2018 season.

Just going by PFF’s numbers we downgraded 27.5 points from
2017 to 2018 (Not including Hill).  With
Hernandez at RG and Remmers at RT, we would have downgraded by 11.8 points.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said: Last year the Vikings could have taken Will Hernandez, but decided to pass. We all speculated that Hernandez was not an athleticism fit--a zone fit. That seems to have been confirmed by comments made recently by Mike Zimmer, who, referring to last year's draft, said something like "if he doesn't fit your scheme, he doesn't help you." It's pretty obvious that he was defending the Vikings choice to pass on Hernandez to the frustration of many fans, myself included.

Now we all know the Vikings have certain size and athleticism parameters for every position. I don't know what they are (maybe Geoff does?) But I know for offensive line, the 3-cone is typically the key metric. So how do the two compare?

Cody Ford

6-4, 329, 34-inch arms

40-5.21, BP-19, Vert-28.5, Broad-104, 3-cone-8.27, shuttle-4.87

Will Hernandez

6-2, 327, 32-inch arms

40-5.15, BP-37, Vert-24, Broad-104, 3-cone-7.59, shuttle-4.7

Just saying....might be a good idea to lock up your sharp objects on draft night.

Some very good cone and shuttle times: Bradbury, Dillard, Lindstrom, McGary, Risner. Some bad ones: Jonah, Ford, McCoy, Howard (last two surprised me).

I think the word is maybe getting out on Ford so you are likely onto something.  early on he was consistently mocked in the mid teens,  now I am seeing him in the early to mid 20s on some.

personally I am still more of an eyeball guy,  but metrics like the cone and shuttle drills are really telling for me about how explosive an athlete is.  40 times and bench presses dont mean much to me as long as they arent glaringly bad... give me game tape IMO.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said: Last year the Vikings could have taken Will Hernandez, but decided to pass. We all speculated that Hernandez was not an athleticism fit--a zone fit. That seems to have been confirmed by comments made recently by Mike Zimmer, who, referring to last year's draft, said something like "if he doesn't fit your scheme, he doesn't help you." It's pretty obvious that he was defending the Vikings choice to pass on Hernandez to the frustration of many fans, myself included.

Now we all know the Vikings have certain size and athleticism parameters for every position. I don't know what they are (maybe Geoff does?) But I know for offensive line, the 3-cone is typically the key metric. So how do the two compare?

Cody Ford

6-4, 329, 34-inch arms

40-5.21, BP-19, Vert-28.5, Broad-104, 3-cone-8.27, shuttle-4.87

Will Hernandez

6-2, 327, 32-inch arms

40-5.15, BP-37, Vert-24, Broad-104, 3-cone-7.59, shuttle-4.7

Just saying....might be a good idea to lock up your sharp objects on draft night.

Some very good cone and shuttle times: Bradbury, Dillard, Lindstrom, McGary, Risner. Some bad ones: Jonah, Ford, McCoy, Howard (last two surprised me).

I think the word is maybe getting out on Ford so you are likely onto something.  early on he was consistently mocked in the mid teens,  now I am seeing him in the early to mid 20s on some.

personally I am still more of an eyeball guy,  but metrics like the cone and shuttle drills are really telling for me about how explosive an athlete is.  40 times and bench presses dont mean much to me as long as they arent glaringly bad... give me game tape IMO.

Cody Ford passes whatever game tape standard you want to throw out there. But then so did Hernandez IMO. They're very similar players. Big, good mobility for their size, high motor, high effort. Biggest difference is their length. Hernandez is a guard only. But Ford has the length to stay at tackle if you wanted him to. Just wanted to point out that if the Vikings have a 3-cone standard, he may not pass it. Course, like Geoff says, maybe it's tied to other metrics. 

@"Bullazin" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"medaille" said: Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we started the worst guard tandem in the league.  You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as last year.  Last year we didn’t draft a guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT.  This year, I would hope that even if we don’t take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and getting stuck with the leftovers.

I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT,  he was adequate at best.   ONeill was good and in some games very damn good.  that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.

Remmers 2017 PFF at RT:  72.1, #36 T

O’Neill 2018 PFF at RT: 
63.0, #50 T

 

Berger 2017 PFF at RG: 
77.6, #18 G

Remmers 2018 PFF at RG: 
59.2, #48 G

Hernandez 2018 PFF at LG: 
65.8, #21 G

 

PFF very clearly considers O’Neill a downgrade from Remmers
at RT, but I think you can project him as an upgrade in the future as he gains
strength and experience, I consider that a lateral move.

Moving Remmers to RG downgraded 2 positions and that’s 40%
of the unit that cost us the 2018 season.

Just going by PFF’s numbers we downgraded 27.5 points from
2017 to 2018 (Not including Hill).  With
Hernandez at RG and Remmers at RT, we would have downgraded by 11.8 points.

What i liked best about Oneil, and any lineman for that matter—is their guy hitting our Qb in the teeth and/or are they getting called for drive killing holding penalties?  I agree and wanted Hernandez last year but Oneil was a better RT than Remmers in my observation for those reasons

@"medaille" said:

@"Bullazin" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"medaille" said: Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we started the worst guard tandem in the league.  You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as last year.  Last year we didn’t draft a guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT.  This year, I would hope that even if we don’t take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and getting stuck with the leftovers.

I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT,  he was adequate at best.   ONeill was good and in some games very damn good.  that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.

Remmers 2017 PFF at RT:  72.1, #36 T

O’Neill 2018 PFF at RT: 
63.0, #50 T

 

Berger 2017 PFF at RG: 
77.6, #18 G

Remmers 2018 PFF at RG: 
59.2, #48 G

Hernandez 2018 PFF at LG: 
65.8, #21 G

 

PFF very clearly considers O’Neill a downgrade from Remmers
at RT, but I think you can project him as an upgrade in the future as he gains
strength and experience, I consider that a lateral move.

Moving Remmers to RG downgraded 2 positions and that’s 40%
of the unit that cost us the 2018 season.

Just going by PFF’s numbers we downgraded 27.5 points from
2017 to 2018 (Not including Hill).  With
Hernandez at RG and Remmers at RT, we would have downgraded by 11.8 points.

What i liked best about Oneil, and any lineman for that matter—is their guy hitting our Qb in the teeth and/or are they getting called for drive killing holding penalties?  I agree and wanted Hernandez last year but Oneil was a better RT than Remmers in my observation for those reasons

That’s a point, which I think you can acceptably argue, but
it’s corollary is should we take a Jawan Taylor and upgrade our RT spot
again?  I would suggest the answer to
that should be a resounding no, for the same reason it should have been a no
last year.  Ignoring your biggest weaknesses
to gain a small amount of improvement at an already stable spot that you’ve
already heavily invested in is dumb.  We
lost an entire year in our window because we were gambling on almost every
position on the OLine.

@"medaille" said:

@"Bullazin" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"medaille" said: Scheme fit or not, Hernandez would have helped us a lot more than ONeill did last year, since ONeill was a lateral move from Remmers and we started the worst guard tandem in the league.  You are probably right that he’s not our ideal body type, at least under our old offensive coaching staff, but we shouldn’t be facing the same choice as last year.  Last year we didn’t draft a guard and waited a whole round to draft a project OT.  This year, I would hope that even if we don’t take the best OG, we at least take the best OG for us rather than waiting and getting stuck with the leftovers.

I dont think ONeill was a lateral move by any stretch... Remmers was not good at RT,  he was adequate at best.   ONeill was good and in some games very damn good.  that was very much an improvement at a position of need last year... and one that is typically harder to find than interior OL help.

Remmers 2017 PFF at RT:  72.1, #36 T

O’Neill 2018 PFF at RT: 
63.0, #50 T

 

Berger 2017 PFF at RG: 
77.6, #18 G

Remmers 2018 PFF at RG: 
59.2, #48 G

Hernandez 2018 PFF at LG: 
65.8, #21 G

 

PFF very clearly considers O’Neill a downgrade from Remmers
at RT, but I think you can project him as an upgrade in the future as he gains
strength and experience, I consider that a lateral move.

Moving Remmers to RG downgraded 2 positions and that’s 40%
of the unit that cost us the 2018 season.

Just going by PFF’s numbers we downgraded 27.5 points from
2017 to 2018 (Not including Hill).  With
Hernandez at RG and Remmers at RT, we would have downgraded by 11.8 points.

What i liked best about Oneil, and any lineman for that matter—is their guy hitting our Qb in the teeth and/or are they getting called for drive killing holding penalties?  I agree and wanted Hernandez last year but Oneil was a better RT than Remmers in my observation for those reasons

That’s a point, which I think you can acceptably argue, but
it’s corollary is should we take a Jawan Taylor and upgrade our RT spot
again?  I would suggest the answer to
that should be a resounding no, for the same reason it should have been a no
last year.  Ignoring your biggest weaknesses
to gain a small amount of improvement at an already stable spot that you’ve
already heavily invested in is dumb.  We
lost an entire year in our window because we were gambling on almost every
position on the OLine.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"AGRforever" said: I hate the idea of "reaching" but we NEED at least 1 starter on the OL this draft.  It has to happen.  So whether that be in round 1 or 2 we have to find that guy who we think can get it done this year. 

IMO, Taylor, Williams, Dillard, Ford, Bradbury, Risner, and  Lindstrom are immediate starters. About half will be available at 18. I don't think any will be available at 50. Up next are McCoy, Jenkins, Little, Cajuste and McGary. About half will be available at 50, but I'm not sure you can call them immediate starters. What's more, no guards. Two are centers, three are tackles. 

In other words, it could be very tempting for the Vikings if a 3T like Gary or Oliver drops to 18, but if we go that route, the OL we end up with may not be the plug and play starter we're all hoping for. 

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said: Last year the Vikings could have taken Will Hernandez, but decided to pass. We all speculated that Hernandez was not an athleticism fit--a zone fit. That seems to have been confirmed by comments made recently by Mike Zimmer, who, referring to last year's draft, said something like "if he doesn't fit your scheme, he doesn't help you." It's pretty obvious that he was defending the Vikings choice to pass on Hernandez to the frustration of many fans, myself included.

Now we all know the Vikings have certain size and athleticism parameters for every position. I don't know what they are (maybe Geoff does?) But I know for offensive line, the 3-cone is typically the key metric. So how do the two compare?

Cody Ford

6-4, 329, 34-inch arms

40-5.21, BP-19, Vert-28.5, Broad-104, 3-cone-8.27, shuttle-4.87

Will Hernandez

6-2, 327, 32-inch arms

40-5.15, BP-37, Vert-24, Broad-104, 3-cone-7.59, shuttle-4.7

Just saying....might be a good idea to lock up your sharp objects on draft night.

Some very good cone and shuttle times: Bradbury, Dillard, Lindstrom, McGary, Risner. Some bad ones: Jonah, Ford, McCoy, Howard (last two surprised me).

I think the word is maybe getting out on Ford so you are likely onto something.  early on he was consistently mocked in the mid teens,  now I am seeing him in the early to mid 20s on some.

personally I am still more of an eyeball guy,  but metrics like the cone and shuttle drills are really telling for me about how explosive an athlete is.  40 times and bench presses dont mean much to me as long as they arent glaringly bad... give me game tape IMO.

Cody Ford passes whatever game tape standard you want to throw out there. But then so did Hernandez IMO. They're very similar players. Big, good mobility for their size, high motor, high effort. Biggest difference is their length. Hernandez is a guard only. But Ford has the length to stay at tackle if you wanted him to. Just wanted to point out that if the Vikings have a 3-cone standard, he may not pass it. Course, like Geoff says, maybe it's tied to other metrics. 

Gamble my ass. I'm sorry, what exactly did all these world beater Guards that Minnesota missed out on do last year?

Ragnow and Price didn't exactly light the world on fire. I, like Geoff, wasn't as impressed with Hernandez on tape vs. his numbers. And he doesn't fit a ZBS scheme. Williams? Meh. He didn't suck playing next to an Elite LT. Wynn got hurt. Miller could very well be a bust.

Value-wise Braden Smith and O'Neill produced more from where they were picked than the 1st Round guys minus McGlinchey and Nelson. And Elf's rookie season was better than most of them too.

Drafting Hughes didn't kill the Line. Eadton missing the whole season. Elf coming back weakened from injury. Sporano passing. His replacements not recognizing O'Neill over Hill earlier and whiffing on Gosset being legit. Remmers sucking ass at Guard. D-Flop mixing schemes. Injuries. Bad playcalling.

Every single one contributed to that hot mess. As did Rick signing Compton and thinking Remmers could play Guard.

I'm not sure drafting Nelson would have prevented that dumpster fire. Too many other factors at play.