Is Tom Brady The Goat?

I kinda agree with Barr.  I think this is very much a debatable topic.  I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player. 

If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss.  Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring. 

Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy.  Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference).  So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls.  Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the  difficulties that go with that.  Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?  

I don't think it's a clear open and shut case. 

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"Canthony" said:

@"BarrNone55" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Not sure how you can't see Brady as the GOAT, IMO. 6 Superbowl rings. 9 Superbowl appearances. 6-3 record in Superbowls. Its staggering. 

Bradshaw and Montana were both 4-0 and were instrumental in those wins. Versus the Rams, Brady was along for the ride. Each of his SBs were decided by a single score IIRC. He could easily be 0-9.

But he isn't and he has 6 rings. Brady never had Rice to throw the ball to or Craig to hand the ball off to and had an offense that was just coming into its own that the league was adjusting to it.
Brady is the GOAT and Brees and Manning are close behind him IMO.

IMO Brees and Manning are quite a ways behind Brady.  Manning was a regular season god who was usually surrounded by tremendous talent on offense but often fell apart in the postseason, and Brees has started to seem the same way.

The biggest difference with Brady is that he gets better as the lights get brighter.

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"Canthony" said:

@"BarrNone55" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Not sure how you can't see Brady as the GOAT, IMO. 6 Superbowl rings. 9 Superbowl appearances. 6-3 record in Superbowls. Its staggering. 

Bradshaw and Montana were both 4-0 and were instrumental in those wins. Versus the Rams, Brady was along for the ride. Each of his SBs were decided by a single score IIRC. He could easily be 0-9.

But he isn't and he has 6 rings. Brady never had Rice to throw the ball to or Craig to hand the ball off to and had an offense that was just coming into its own that the league was adjusting to it.
Brady is the GOAT and Brees and Manning are close behind him IMO.

IMO Brees and Manning are quite a ways behind Brady.  Manning was a regular season god who was usually surrounded by tremendous talent on offense but often fell apart in the postseason, and Brees has started to seem the same way.

The biggest difference with Brady is that he gets better as the lights get brighter.

@"Bezerker88" said:

I kinda agree with Barr.  I think this is very much a debatable topic.  I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player. 

If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss.  Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring. 

Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy.  Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference).  So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls.  Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the  difficulties that go with that.  Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?  

I don't think it's a clear open and shut case. 

Manning is up there as well.  A very cerebral QB as well and played at an elite level for a long time. His last superbowl win was purely along for the ride as that defense won the game.  Got his ass kicked by Seattle prior to that. 

Dunno, most NFL players will tell you to enjoy the superbowl cuz most likely you will never get back there.  Unless you are Tom Brady.  Then it is a 50/50 chance.

@"BarrNone55" said: Brady has 1 TD pass in two Super Bowl wins vs the Rams... 

@"Bezerker88" said:

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"Canthony" said:

@"BarrNone55" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Not sure how you can't see Brady as the GOAT, IMO. 6 Superbowl rings. 9 Superbowl appearances. 6-3 record in Superbowls. Its staggering. 

Bradshaw and Montana were both 4-0 and were instrumental in those wins. Versus the Rams, Brady was along for the ride. Each of his SBs were decided by a single score IIRC. He could easily be 0-9.

But he isn't and he has 6 rings. Brady never had Rice to throw the ball to or Craig to hand the ball off to and had an offense that was just coming into its own that the league was adjusting to it.
Brady is the GOAT and Brees and Manning are close behind him IMO.

IMO Brees and Manning are quite a ways behind Brady.  Manning was a regular season god who was usually surrounded by tremendous talent on offense but often fell apart in the postseason, and Brees has started to seem the same way.

The biggest difference with Brady is that he gets better as the lights get brighter.

If that were true why does Manning have a 3-2 record vs Brady in the AFCCG? 

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"Bezerker88" said:

@"SFVikingFan" said:

@"Canthony" said:

@"BarrNone55" said:

@"StickyBun" said: Not sure how you can't see Brady as the GOAT, IMO. 6 Superbowl rings. 9 Superbowl appearances. 6-3 record in Superbowls. Its staggering. 

Bradshaw and Montana were both 4-0 and were instrumental in those wins. Versus the Rams, Brady was along for the ride. Each of his SBs were decided by a single score IIRC. He could easily be 0-9.

But he isn't and he has 6 rings. Brady never had Rice to throw the ball to or Craig to hand the ball off to and had an offense that was just coming into its own that the league was adjusting to it.
Brady is the GOAT and Brees and Manning are close behind him IMO.

IMO Brees and Manning are quite a ways behind Brady.  Manning was a regular season god who was usually surrounded by tremendous talent on offense but often fell apart in the postseason, and Brees has started to seem the same way.

The biggest difference with Brady is that he gets better as the lights get brighter.

If that were true why does Manning have a 3-2 record vs Brady in the AFCCG? 

Tom Brady has a 30-10 (.750) record in the postseason over his career, with almost twice as many wins as the next highest QB ever (Montana with 16).

Peyton Manning had a 14-13 (.519) record in the postseason.

Brady is also 6-3 in Super Bowls, where Manning was 2-2 (and he was carried to his last SB win by the Broncos defense).

@"Bezerker88" said:

I kinda agree with Barr.  I think this is very much a debatable topic.  I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player. 

If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss.  Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring. 

Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy.  Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference).  So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls.  Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the  difficulties that go with that.  Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?  

I don't think it's a clear open and shut case. 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Bezerker88" said:

I kinda agree with Barr.  I think this is very much a debatable topic.  I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player. 

If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss.  Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring. 

Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy.  Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference).  So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls.  Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the  difficulties that go with that.  Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?  

I don't think it's a clear open and shut case. 

The case could be argued that why would manning have had so many coaches to learn under if he was the goat?  Wouldn't he have done enough to keep the first coach or two and retired from that first team?  

@"Bezerker88" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Bezerker88" said:

I kinda agree with Barr.  I think this is very much a debatable topic.  I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player. 

If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss.  Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring. 

Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy.  Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference).  So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls.  Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the  difficulties that go with that.  Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?  

I don't think it's a clear open and shut case. 

The case could be argued that why would manning have had so many coaches to learn under if he was the goat?  Wouldn't he have done enough to keep the first coach or two and retired from that first team?  

Could be argued,.. it would be lost... but yes it could be argued.  So now, not only does the GOAT have to have multiple Super Bowl Trophies, they need to play(or have played) for only one team and coach their entire career?  Why not just add in - and their initials need to be T.B. and the team they played for needs to be the Patriots? 

In my opinion greatness shines no matter where it is.  It doesn't need a controlled setting in order to be great.  It's great by itself.  The only QB that has achieved the goal that is every NFL QB's goal each season, under different settings is Peyton Manning.  He's won the Super Bowl trophy with different teams.  He also won the League MVP while playing for different teams... I think he is the only player to do that too.     

A person cannot say for sure that Tom Brady would have the record he has IF he had to change teams and leave Hoodie's system, no one knows for sure if it's Tom or the system he plays in.  Manning's greatness followed him where ever he played to provide evidence of his greatness.  The Bronco's had 6 seasons of 9 wins or less before Manning signed and he lifted them to 13-3, 13-3, 12-4 and 12-4.  The Bronco's went right back to no double digit win seaons after he left... with 9-7, 5-11 and 6-10 seasons.   

     

@"Bezerker88" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Bezerker88" said:

I kinda agree with Barr.  I think this is very much a debatable topic.  I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player. 

If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss.  Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring. 

Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy.  Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference).  So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls.  Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the  difficulties that go with that.  Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?  

I don't think it's a clear open and shut case. 

The case could be argued that why would manning have had so many coaches to learn under if he was the goat?  Wouldn't he have done enough to keep the first coach or two and retired from that first team?  

Could be argued,.. it would be lost... but yes it could be argued.  So now, not only does the GOAT have to have multiple Super Bowl Trophies, they need to play(or have played) for only one team and coach their entire career?  Why not just add in - and their initials need to be T.B. and the team they played for needs to be the Patriots? 

In my opinion greatness shines no matter where it is.  It doesn't need a controlled setting in order to be great.  It's great by itself.  The only QB that has achieved the goal that is every NFL QB's goal each season, under different settings is Peyton Manning.  He's won the Super Bowl trophy with different teams.  He also won the League MVP while playing for different teams... I think he is the only player to do that too.     

A person cannot say for sure that Tom Brady would have the record he has IF he had to change teams and leave Hoodie's system, no one knows for sure if it's Tom or the system he plays in.  Manning's greatness followed him where ever he played to provide evidence of his greatness.  The Bronco's had 6 seasons of 9 wins or less before Manning signed and he lifted them to 13-3, 13-3, 12-4 and 12-4.  The Bronco's went right back to no double digit win seaons after he left... with 9-7, 5-11 and 6-10 seasons.   

     

I'm not saying it has to be Manning.  I'm saying that Manning's career is clearly an argument that Brady isn't even the Greatest QB of all time.  So if he's not the greatest at his position he really can't be the GOAT player in the NFL.  And like others have pointed out he was gifted many, many rule changes that favored QBs and wouldn't have lasted long in 60s or 70s.  

IMO - Greatness is overcoming adversity and being successful in whatever it is you do.  We've seen Manning do that, we have not witnessed Brady doing so.  Brady has sat comfortably in his same locker room, with his same coach his entire career.  Ask a professional "anything" about how important continuity is and you'll get the same answer.  Everyone who performs at a high level has routines, checks and rituals to go thru and any interruption of those can cause issues with their performance.  It's why Home Field advantage is such a BIG deal when going into the playoffs.  What the Pats have done is incredible but giving Brady total credit is wrong.  The Giants Defense pressured Brady each Super Bowl defeat and exposed that if you hit him hard and often he's just a QB that loses games, even on the biggest stage.  If he was SO great wouldn't he have been undefeated in the Super Bowls like Montana's 4-0?   But Brady was 3-1 in 4.  Brady and Hoodie and the system is why they have all those rings.  Remove one and I doubt the other would be as successful.

How could the GOAT QB and the GOAT WR on the same team not Super Bowl?  Perhaps cuz they were not... is always an option. =)   

@"SFVikingFan" said:

     

Speaking of playing under different settings, New England's assistant coaches and coordinators get poached off the team constantly, and Brady has thrived in any scenario and under any offensive coordinator he has played under.  The offensive coordinator affects a QB more than the head coach does.  Give him bottom of the barrel WRs and less than stellar RBs?  Brady finds a way to keep the chains moving, not turn the ball over, and still wins championships.  Give him one of the greatest WRs ever in Randy Moss?  Brady adapts to a vertical offense and sets the NFL record for TD passes and points scored in a season.  Switch to an offense where the RB screen, slot WR and TE are featured?  No problem, he adapts seamlessly and wins championships in that offense as well.  He has constantly transformed his style of play to fit the players around him, with unprecedented levels of success.

Meanwhile, this was Manning's last season, when the Broncos carried him to a Super Bowl win so that people could say he won the Super Bowl trophy with different teams:
"Out of 34 qualifying passers, he finished dead last in the league in passer rating, behind guys like Nick Foles and Blaine Gabbert. He nearly won the interception “crown,” despite missing six games. He set career lows in almost every major statistical category.  The average QB rating in 2015 was 88.4. Manning finished 19.5 points below that."

@"Bezerker88" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Bezerker88" said:

I kinda agree with Barr.  I think this is very much a debatable topic.  I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player. 

If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss.  Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring. 

Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy.  Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference).  So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls.  Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the  difficulties that go with that.  Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?  

I don't think it's a clear open and shut case. 

The case could be argued that why would manning have had so many coaches to learn under if he was the goat?  Wouldn't he have done enough to keep the first coach or two and retired from that first team?  

Could be argued,.. it would be lost... but yes it could be argued.  So now, not only does the GOAT have to have multiple Super Bowl Trophies, they need to play(or have played) for only one team and coach their entire career?  Why not just add in - and their initials need to be T.B. and the team they played for needs to be the Patriots? 

In my opinion greatness shines no matter where it is.  It doesn't need a controlled setting in order to be great.  It's great by itself.  The only QB that has achieved the goal that is every NFL QB's goal each season, under different settings is Peyton Manning.  He's won the Super Bowl trophy with different teams.  He also won the League MVP while playing for different teams... I think he is the only player to do that too.     

A person cannot say for sure that Tom Brady would have the record he has IF he had to change teams and leave Hoodie's system, no one knows for sure if it's Tom or the system he plays in.  Manning's greatness followed him where ever he played to provide evidence of his greatness.  The Bronco's had 6 seasons of 9 wins or less before Manning signed and he lifted them to 13-3, 13-3, 12-4 and 12-4.  The Bronco's went right back to no double digit win seaons after he left... with 9-7, 5-11 and 6-10 seasons.   

     

Yes

@"holmanjp" said:

@"Bezerker88" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"Bezerker88" said:

I kinda agree with Barr.  I think this is very much a debatable topic.  I'm not even convinced Brady is the Greatest QB of all time let alone the GOAT NFL player. 

If Super Bowl victories are your measuring stick than I guess Patterson is a better WR than Moss.  Both played with Hoodie and Brady but yet only one has a ring. 

Manning took 4 different head coaches and 2 different teams to the Super Bowl and got two of them the trophy.  Manning has won League MVP 5 times to Brady's 3, while playing head to head(meaning at the same time in the same conference).  So Manning was voted superior at his position 5 times while Brady's team were winning Super Bowls.  Brady has never, never had to learn under a different system and the  difficulties that go with that.  Not his fault, but most people would agree that being able to produce at a high level under different circumstances is better than producing the same results without change, wouldn't they?  

I don't think it's a clear open and shut case. 

The case could be argued that why would manning have had so many coaches to learn under if he was the goat?  Wouldn't he have done enough to keep the first coach or two and retired from that first team?  

Could be argued,.. it would be lost... but yes it could be argued.  So now, not only does the GOAT have to have multiple Super Bowl Trophies, they need to play(or have played) for only one team and coach their entire career?  Why not just add in - and their initials need to be T.B. and the team they played for needs to be the Patriots? 

In my opinion greatness shines no matter where it is.  It doesn't need a controlled setting in order to be great.  It's great by itself.  The only QB that has achieved the goal that is every NFL QB's goal each season, under different settings is Peyton Manning.  He's won the Super Bowl trophy with different teams.  He also won the League MVP while playing for different teams... I think he is the only player to do that too.     

A person cannot say for sure that Tom Brady would have the record he has IF he had to change teams and leave Hoodie's system, no one knows for sure if it's Tom or the system he plays in.  Manning's greatness followed him where ever he played to provide evidence of his greatness.  The Bronco's had 6 seasons of 9 wins or less before Manning signed and he lifted them to 13-3, 13-3, 12-4 and 12-4.  The Bronco's went right back to no double digit win seaons after he left... with 9-7, 5-11 and 6-10 seasons.   

     

Not to nit pick, he played in 8 wins his last season, only if you count his last reg season game as having anything
to do with helping the team win. 5 of 9 69 yards 0 TD/INT

The game he played before that game. 5 of 20 35 yards 0 TD 4 INT

For the season 9 TD 17 INT 67.9 passer rating

In the SB 13-23 141 yards 56.5% 0 TD 1 INT 56.6 passer rating, Den won that game despite PM.
The good thing is Miller was SB MVP, and they didn't give it to PM because of his name.

Just like barry bonds---a cheater will never be considered the GOAT in my opinion.

There was a new, old school, NFL Films production recently of the Top 10 QBs of all time. As someone who has always been fair weather towards Brady's career, watching his highlight tape next to Montana's really cemented the fact that Brady is the greatest for me. At first I rolled my eyes at Brady being placed #1, but by  the time their film package ended I felt really stupid for not believing it.

For all of the accolades and statistics we constantly hear when it comes to Brady, I feel there is a gigantic void when it comes to his film. While Montana's statistics are amazing, his NFL films packages are really what fuels the fire. His play looks so amazing that all you can do is add in the statistics and his case makes itself. "The Leap." Absolutely incredible. I feel like that is something majorly missing in today NFL. Beyond that recent NFL Films "Top 10," i'm not sure i've ever really seen a reflective-type highlight video on Brady's career. Perhaps the fair weather fan in me causes me to avoid it. But when his entire career is packaged into highlights, his career is absolutely remarkable.