My question throughout the game

BRob is/was a great player and he provided leadership. So did Newman (who I suspect is missed as much). But other good teams and defensive units have lost leading vets and if their scheme is strong and coaches are good, they continue to perform well.

But a lot of comments from Pops refer to Brian lining people up correctly, and we hear about players out of position. That's not just a lack of inspiration, it's misunderstanding. Yet this is not a group of rookies or 2nd-year players. Every significant contributor aside from Mike Hughes and Ben Gedeon (not even that significant) is a vet of 3 years or more. Smith and Joseph are 29, Rhodes is 28 - maybe they aren't "leaders", but if half of this unit doesn't know the defensive scheme, will they ever?
If a defensive scheme is so complicated it can only work if it has an old DB with 10+ years in the system ON THE FIELD...is it really a scheme that is practical in the NFL??

@"Maple Surple" said: Maybe a statue of him would help brighten up the locker room ?

C’mon...
I get that you guys all have all his jerseys and autographed pics & have actually talked to him in person about fish, but enough. This message board has turned into a living obituary 
Opponent scores...BRob would have stopped it, Our QB fumbles ? BRob would have coached him up, Our secondary falls apart? BRob would have laid his hands on them

Look we get it, you really liked him and his Dad being connected here, but that ship has sailed. You can’t be objective & obsessive, they don’t mix

If nothing else tell me why ...
not one team in the league hasn’t hired him as a player or coach ?

1. I'll tell you. 35 yrs old and people think that is a curse. 
2.he is not going to coach and doesn't want to coach.
3. He has been contacted or his agent has and he declined because it wasn't where he wanted to be.
Another team told him to stay in shape and be ready.
4. His agent said usually most teams have their rosters set already and it would be later on in the season due to an injury or a playoff team needing veteran play.
5. I really don't give a flying FUCK what you think or say.
But as of right now we are headed to a bass tournament and then maybe a few days fishing in Minnesota.
Jimmy, you are knocking it out of the park with your assessment. Truth is there is not a vocal leader to take his place and i still stick to my guns on the reason they will not call. RS,  believe it or not.
Tata.

@"96POPS" said:

@"Maple Surple" said: Maybe a statue of him would help brighten up the locker room ?

C’mon...
I get that you guys all have all his jerseys and autographed pics & have actually talked to him in person about fish, but enough. This message board has turned into a living obituary 
Opponent scores...BRob would have stopped it, Our QB fumbles ? BRob would have coached him up, Our secondary falls apart? BRob would have laid his hands on them

Look we get it, you really liked him and his Dad being connected here, but that ship has sailed. You can’t be objective & obsessive, they don’t mix

If nothing else tell me why ...
not one team in the league hasn’t hired him as a player or coach ?

1. I'll tell you. 35 yrs old and people think that is a curse. 
2.he is not going to coach and doesn't want to coach.
3. He has been contacted or his agent has and he declined because it wasn't where he wanted to be.
Another team told him tobstaybinnshspe and be ready.
4. His agent said usually most teams have their rosters set already and it would be later on in the season due to an injury or a playoff team needing veteran play.
5. I really don't give a flying FUCK what you think or say.
But as of right now we are headed to a bass tournament and then maybe a few days fishing in Minnesota.
Jimmy, you are knocking it out of the park with your assessment. Truth is there is not a vocal leader to take his place and i still stick to my guns on the reason they will not call. RS,  believe it or not.
Tata.

Sorry you Popped your Top Pop  :o
Go Fish
As Ive said many times, B should cherish his memories and be thankful he had a great career and still has his health, physical & mental as I can’t help but wonder if EverG hasnt been affected by physical brain trauma or other chemicals administered by staff over the years

Sad to see there are such sour grapes, but time will heal all wounds & when he goes into the ring, bygones will be just that

The only constant is change

@"Jor-El" said:

BRob is/was a great player and he provided leadership. So did Newman (who I suspect is missed as much). But other good teams and defensive units have lost leading vets and if their scheme is strong and coaches are good, they continue to perform well.

But a lot of comments from Pops refer to Brian lining people up correctly, and we hear about players out of position. That's not just a lack of inspiration, it's misunderstanding. Yet this is not a group of rookies or 2nd-year players. Every significant contributor aside from Mike Hughes and Ben Gedeon (not even that significant) is a vet of 3 years or more. Smith and Joseph are 29, Rhodes is 28 - maybe they aren't "leaders", but if half of this unit doesn't know the defensive scheme, will they ever?
If a defensive scheme is so complicated it can only work if it has an old DB with 10+ years in the system ON THE FIELD...is it really a scheme that is practical in the NFL??

Great point !
I was thinking that if any player was missed on the field it was Newman, but how inept are the rest that they need to have their hand held ? 

@"Maple Surple" said: Maybe a statue of him would help brighten up the locker room ?

C’mon...
I get that you guys all have all his jerseys and autographed pics & have actually talked to him in person about fish, but enough. This message board has turned into a living obituary 
Opponent scores...BRob would have stopped it, Our QB fumbles ? BRob would have coached him up, Our secondary falls apart? BRob would have laid his hands on them

Look we get it, you really liked him and his Dad being connected here, but that ship has sailed. You can’t be objective & obsessive, they don’t mix

If nothing else tell me why ...
not one team in the league hasn’t hired him as a player or coach ?

Talk about conjecture...
My opinion is based on having played the game at the college level... and having coached it for 20+ years.  I have never met Brian... and I think if Pops were honest, he knows my "handle" and that's about it.  I like Pops, but it's not like we've ever swapped PMs.  I would guess that those who completely disregard the importance of leadership... have never played the game at a high level... or served in the military.

It really doesn't matter why no other team has signed him; what matters is that we didn't.  Maybe that was a good decision... maybe it wasn't.  But- as I said at the time- the decision to let BRob go seemed like a move made for the future depth of the DL, not for the present (i.e. "win now").  

@"Jor-El" said:

BRob is/was a great player and he provided leadership. So did Newman (who I suspect is missed as much). But other good teams and defensive units have lost leading vets and if their scheme is strong and coaches are good, they continue to perform well.

But a lot of comments from Pops refer to Brian lining people up correctly, and we hear about players out of position. That's not just a lack of inspiration, it's misunderstanding. Yet this is not a group of rookies or 2nd-year players. Every significant contributor aside from Mike Hughes and Ben Gedeon (not even that significant) is a vet of 3 years or more. Smith and Joseph are 29, Rhodes is 28 - maybe they aren't "leaders", but if half of this unit doesn't know the defensive scheme, will they ever?
If a defensive scheme is so complicated it can only work if it has an old DB with 10+ years in the system ON THE FIELD...is it really a scheme that is practical in the NFL??

You forgot about Mack Alexander.  That's 2 young DBs... and our biggest issue has been pass defense.  

I know some will always disagree but I think the veteran leadership is really important.  I  have said it often and will continue to say that this defense misses BRob and Newman too.

@"pumpf" said:

@"Jor-El" said:

BRob is/was a great player and he provided leadership. So did Newman (who I suspect is missed as much). But other good teams and defensive units have lost leading vets and if their scheme is strong and coaches are good, they continue to perform well.

But a lot of comments from Pops refer to Brian lining people up correctly, and we hear about players out of position. That's not just a lack of inspiration, it's misunderstanding. Yet this is not a group of rookies or 2nd-year players. Every significant contributor aside from Mike Hughes and Ben Gedeon (not even that significant) is a vet of 3 years or more. Smith and Joseph are 29, Rhodes is 28 - maybe they aren't "leaders", but if half of this unit doesn't know the defensive scheme, will they ever?
If a defensive scheme is so complicated it can only work if it has an old DB with 10+ years in the system ON THE FIELD...is it really a scheme that is practical in the NFL??

You forgot about Mack Alexander.  That's 2 young DBs... and our biggest issue has been pass defense.  

Honestly with these younger guys it's lack of playing time, maybe not so much in Mack's case, but is definitely true in the case of these young DEs. Yes they are in practice each day and they practice and practice their assignments, but practices are not actual games. Both Mack and Weatherly have flashed here and there. But Mack made some bad mistakes last night that really he shouldn't still be making.
You get a guy like Kearse who comes in for spot duty, and he does pretty decent, but there's a guy in George Iloka sitting on the bench for an unknown reason who I would think could really bring something that's missing to this D. I really don't understand why he's not playing. Does he have a mystery injury that's not been reported? Is he having trouble with the different terminology for a scheme he's already very familiar with? Has his play slipped so bad that he sucks worse than guys like Kearse or Sendejo?? I really thought this guy was going to come in and put Dejo on the bench, but here we are 4 games into the season and he's not even playing.
Something else, and maybe it's not true at all, but this team just seems emotionally fragile to me. Better veteran leadership could help that, but even when we had the leadership last year the defense still folded. You can blame a stale scheme or missing veteran leadership, but those things alone just don't seem to explain it.  It's almost like these guys gobble up their own hype but they also can't handle the hype. If they just can't handle it,  then they are no different than Walsh and Carlson.
I look at both sides of the ball and I see guys on the offense who come to play and play to win. On the defensive side of the ball they must enjoy reading their press clippings from last year. It's too bad. Maybe the D has PTSD from spending so many years as the identity of this team.

@"prairieghost" said:You get a guy like Kearse who comes in for spot duty, and he does pretty decent, but there's a guy in George Iloka sitting on the bench for an unknown reason who I would think could really bring something that's missing to this D. I really don't understand why he's not playing. Does he have a mystery injury that's not been reported? Is he having trouble with the different terminology for a scheme he's already very familiar with? Has his play slipped so bad that he sucks worse than guys like Kearse or Sendejo?? I really thought this guy was going to come in and put Dejo on the bench, but here we are 4 games into the season and he's not even playing..

Could it be that Zimmer complexifies and changes the defense so much that 4 years away from him has forced Iloka into a remedial tutoring program that will make him unable to play half a season?

@"pumpf" said:

@"Maple Surple" said: Maybe a statue of him would help brighten up the locker room ?

C’mon...
I get that you guys all have all his jerseys and autographed pics & have actually talked to him in person about fish, but enough. This message board has turned into a living obituary 
Opponent scores...BRob would have stopped it, Our QB fumbles ? BRob would have coached him up, Our secondary falls apart? BRob would have laid his hands on them

Look we get it, you really liked him and his Dad being connected here, but that ship has sailed. You can’t be objective & obsessive, they don’t mix

If nothing else tell me why ...
not one team in the league hasn’t hired him as a player or coach ?

Talk about conjecture...
My opinion is based on having played the game at the college level... and having coached it for 20+ years.  I have never met Brian... and I think if Pops were honest, he knows my "handle" and that's about it.  I like Pops, but it's not like we've ever swapped PMs.  I would guess that those who completely disregard the importance of leadership... have never played the game at a high level... or served in the military.

It really doesn't matter why no other team has signed him; what matters is that we didn't.  Maybe that was a good decision... maybe it wasn't.  But- as I said at the time- the decision to let BRob go seemed like a move made for the future depth of the DL, not for the present (i.e. "win now").  

I've had the priviledge of watching what a guy like BRob does for a team. The Vikes cut him because they thought they had Griffin to fall back on for leadership, not knowing he was a Demetrius Underwood in disguise.  It's not just about placing players, there is a huuuuuuge edge for someone on the field who's "seen it, done that" to be able to yell over to another player... watch for x.  BRob did more than that, he was a constant presence on the sidelines coaching and teaching everything from scheme to doing hand-fighting drills in defensive down time. Most importantly, you need a clear leader that gives the defense a voice... an identity. We haven't had that yet this year.  BRob inherited that mantle from Greenway... they may not have been physical specimens but they were "the guy" everyone turns to. Remember these are 22-25 year old guys for the most part, not all of them particularly social, but a unit needs a leader.  Right now I think that's our defensive problem. There's not a leader.  Yeah coaches can be leaders but an on the field... it's why you have generals and sergeants... you need someone in the thick to pull you through mentally.  We need that now, be it BRob or anyone (except Boone... let's not do that again lol). 

Every single season every single team cuts a respected veteran who is a leader. And somehow manage to survive.

Look, meltdowns this unexpected can't be pinned on just one factor alone. It's a variety of factors and you all know it once the emotional shock wears off.

Here's my factors, although I'm sure there's more:

1. Young OCs have borrowed a ton of misdirection and eye candy pre-snap from the college ranks. It's causing communication issues with the LBs and DBs and leading to wide open TEs, RBs and FBs. How Mac let Cupp go for Barr to defend is unfathomable to me.

2. Zimmer has had a history of having an opponent's first drive lead to a TD. He then adjusts and shuts down what the OC is throwing at him. That flat out isn't happening this year. No in-game adjustments. Why? Don't know, but whatever the reason it ain't good.

3. Loss of some veteran leadership. Yes, it's a legit factor. But not 100% the reason. And it bothers me that the Coaches and veterans haven't stepped up to plug the gap.

4. The Pass Rush isn't getting home but Mike won't blitz. I hate relying on blitzing to create pressure, but sometimes you don't have a choice. And what happened to all the exotic looks that were just fake blitzes? Puzzling.

5. Mac Ax isn't cutting it. He was an Outside Corner at Clemson who thrived on confidence and swagger. He has neither confidence nor swagger as a Slot CB and OCs  see it and are exploiting it.

6. I believe Iloka was brought in for the Big Nickel role. I am guessing he never played that role before and it's taking time to learn it. It is also possible Zimmer has already decided Big Nickel won't fix the coverage issues.

7. Richardson has never been consistent enough of a player and so far has not been the panacea many believed he would be.

8. So many new contracts on Defense and 1 glaring non-extension. Are some pressing to live up to new deals as some of you have suggested? I think so. Is Barr disappearing because he didn't get one? Again, I think so.

So there's 8 reasons for not dating my teenage Defense. All have legit reasons for contributing to the problem. Some, like a lack of veteran leadership, have a bigger slice of the blame pie than others.

For me it's mostly Zimmer. The League is changing yet again and this time he looks out of touch. So far, every time he's needed to look in the mirror and improve he's done so. I hope to hell he does it again.

@"FSUVike" said: Every single season every single team cuts a respected veteran who is a leader. And somehow manage to survive.

Look, meltdowns this unexpected can't be pinned on just one factor alone. It's a variety of factors and you all know it once the emotional shock wears off.

Here's my factors, although I'm sure there's more:

1. Young OCs have borrowed a ton of misdirection and eye candy pre-snap from the college ranks. It's causing communication issues with the LBs and DBs and leading to wide open TEs, RBs and FBs. How Mac let Cupp go for Barr to defend is unfathomable to me.

2. Zimmer has had a history of having an opponent's first drive lead to a TD. He then adjusts and shuts down what the OC is throwing at him. That flat out isn't happening this year. No in-game adjustments. Why? Don't know, but whatever the reason it ain't good.

3. Loss of some veteran leadership. Yes, it's a legit factor. But not 100% the reason. And it bothers me that the Coaches and veterans haven't stepped up to plug the gap.

4. The Pass Rush isn't getting home but Mike won't blitz. I hate relying on blitzing to create pressure, but sometimes you don't have a choice. And what happened to all the exotic looks that were just fake blitzes? Puzzling.

5. Mac Ax isn't cutting it. He was an Outside Corner at Clemson who thrived on confidence and swagger. He has neither confidence nor swagger as a Slot CB and OCs  see it and are exploiting it.

6. I believe Iloka was brought in for the Big Nickel role. I am guessing he never played that role before and it's taking time to learn it. It is also possible Zimmer has already decided Big Nickel won't fix the coverage issues.

7. Richardson has never been consistent enough of a player and so far has not been the panacea many believed he would be.

8. So many new contracts on Defense and 1 glaring non-extension. Are some pressing to live up to new deals as some of you have suggested? I think so. Is Barr disappearing because he didn't get one? Again, I think so.

So there's 8 reasons for not dating my teenage Defense. All have legit reasons for contributing to the problem. Some, like a lack of veteran leadership, have a bigger slice of the blame pie than others.

For me it's mostly Zimmer. The League is changing yet again and this time he looks out of touch. So far, every time he's needed to look in the mirror and improve he's done so. I hope to hell he does it again.

I am curious if anyone sees any change in our D from last year.  Each year Zim has introduced a new wrinkle, Double A gap blitz, BRob lined up as a Jack, pattern matching in the secondary, but not much has stuck out this year.  Maybe the coverage has changed, but it isn't for the better IMO.  So either it got too complex (Zim admitted to overcoaching some last night) or his D hasn't changed this year. 

He has always adjusted, so I am hopeful.  But the communication is troublesome. 

BRob and Newman have been very valuable as leaders. I think that has been underestimated. Of course individual players have their own internal motivation and drive and that is definitely important. But what about when that individual is focusing more on self versus the team. There are some people who can channel individuals to work together as a unit. Brob was excellent at that. And the unit was a pretty diverse group of people but he was a huge part of that foundation. There is a lack of cohesiveness now.

Add the loss of Griffen to that and it's an even bigger challenge. He was definitely vocal and passionate. Everson has to take care of himself and I wish him the best but to think that his teammates don't feel the loss is ridiculous. I remember his comments about the loss of BRob. It was pretty clear he felt it. They are all individuals but they are all parts of a whole. If there is a lack of unity or being on the same page, it's a problem. There is a whole lot of change and adjustment going on with the composition of the defense. And there needs to be some change to adjust to the changes in the game. But there also needs to be some stability and right now it's looking like that is sorely lacking. There is an abundance of talent but without the proper balance, things become chaotic. It's a puzzle that's needs to fit differently than before. 

I also think Zimmer has to let others into the defensive meetings and get their take because the game is changing to emphasize the offense. It's a matter of adapt or die. The defense has to continue to evolve and grow in order to be successful again. 

@"Maple Surple" said:

@"pumpf" said:

@"Maple Surple" said: Maybe a statue of him would help brighten up the locker room ?

C’mon...
I get that you guys all have all his jerseys and autographed pics & have actually talked to him in person about fish, but enough. This message board has turned into a living obituary 
Opponent scores...BRob would have stopped it, Our QB fumbles ? BRob would have coached him up, Our secondary falls apart? BRob would have laid his hands on them

Look we get it, you really liked him and his Dad being connected here, but that ship has sailed. You can’t be objective & obsessive, they don’t mix

If nothing else tell me why ...
not one team in the league hasn’t hired him as a player or coach ?

Talk about conjecture...
My opinion is based on having played the game at the college level... and having coached it for 20+ years.  I have never met Brian... and I think if Pops were honest, he knows my "handle" and that's about it.  I like Pops, but it's not like we've ever swapped PMs.  I would guess that those who completely disregard the importance of leadership... have never played the game at a high level... or served in the military.

It really doesn't matter why no other team has signed him; what matters is that we didn't.  Maybe that was a good decision... maybe it wasn't.  But- as I said at the time- the decision to let BRob go seemed like a move made for the future depth of the DL, not for the present (i.e. "win now").  

I didnt win a Super Bowl nor storm the beaches of Normandy, but I know leadership is important, but so is on the field play
The Bears didnt trade for Mack because he gives a good pep talk

@"1VikesFan" said: I know some will always disagree but I think the veteran leadership is really important.  I  have said it often and will continue to say that this defense misses BRob and Newman too.

Its not just Robison.  It’s Griffen and Newman too.
All of the veteran leadership that side of the ball is gone now.  Harrison Smith is a good player but he’s not that guy.

@"Purplewhizz" said:

@"1VikesFan" said: I know some will always disagree but I think the veteran leadership is really important.  I  have said it often and will continue to say that this defense misses BRob and Newman too.

Its not just Robison.  It’s Griffen and Newman too.
All of the veteran leadership that side of the ball is gone now.  Harrison Smith is a good player but he’s not that guy.

@"Jor-El" said:

@"prairieghost" said:You get a guy like Kearse who comes in for spot duty, and he does pretty decent, but there's a guy in George Iloka sitting on the bench for an unknown reason who I would think could really bring something that's missing to this D. I really don't understand why he's not playing. Does he have a mystery injury that's not been reported? Is he having trouble with the different terminology for a scheme he's already very familiar with? Has his play slipped so bad that he sucks worse than guys like Kearse or Sendejo?? I really thought this guy was going to come in and put Dejo on the bench, but here we are 4 games into the season and he's not even playing..

Could it be that Zimmer complexifies and changes the defense so much that 4 years away from him has forced Iloka into a remedial tutoring program that will make him unable to play half a season?