CB with #1? A bit of a pivotal moment for me.

@"Poiple" said:

@"FSUVike" said:

@"Poiple" said: It isnt the number of O lineman.  It is the quality of them.  They are a below average group.  If the Vikings want to reliably compete they need an above average group.  

There is no ignoring or rationalizing that will explain away the fact that Rick and Zimmer neglect the offense for the sake of the defense.  If you cant see it, no problem.   If your season is made happy by having a number one D and going home empty handed in the playoffs, then good for you.  But there is no way you can convince me that a Nickle or Dime CB is needed as much as an offensive lineman on this sub par O line.  

The fact that you guys count the number of lineman and say “problem solved” or that you believe a late round pick is the same as a first round pick already rules you out of intelligent discussions. 

So you already think Flipper is a bust? Cuz he's doubtlessly the one who pushed Rick to sign the kid from the Eagles but what does he know.

And you already think Isidora can't play?

And you already think Minnesota can't add a good player to the Line in the next two rounds of what is inarguably a deeper interior O-Line class than the one that produced Elf in the 3rd last year?

Sounds to me like someone has their mind made up for sure. Intelligent discussion indeed.

I do have my mind made up.  A lot of us do.  The fact that you cant see the problem is your problem. 

Go back a couple years + and our oline was a crapfest(29th or so),  Last year much better(great no, but improving) and they say it takes several seasons to gel as a unit.  Try a little faith that they want their new shiny toy(Cousins) upright and have  a plan to achieve it.  
I listened to  Geoff.s pre draft analysis and commented  about depth issues on the Db front  and it seems the front office also questions what good  signing a 3T to go next to Linval if we are gonna just let the Qb  have  outlets. 

@"ATXVIKE" said: Come on we've drafted 5 dbs in the 1st or 2nd  rd since 2011...when is this group done being built....otoh just 2 Ol since then in 1st and 3rd  rds. FUCK this reasoning...start building a decent OL!!!!!! 3 yrs in a row it's been a shit show on the OL. even last yr had dismal display. I rarely get upset about the draft. But we need OL help like 4 yrs ago. We had calls to trade back and geez we got a day 1 starting K returner....remember Cordarrel he could actually play a starting role day 1 beside K returner! Oh BTW the kid has issues and is short and slow! Great!

You cannot say they have not tried to upgrade the line since 2011 without mentioning free agents.

It is unfortunate that they missed out on Beavers and Clemmings both of whom were 4th round picks.

The Packers selected Sitton and Lang in the 4th round.  The Panthers got Trai Turner after the Vikings took Clemmings.  The Patriots got Shaw Mason in the 4th round.

If the Vikings would have done better with those 4th round picks then maybe things would be different now.

@"FSUVike" said:

@"Poiple" said: It isnt the number of O lineman.  It is the quality of them.  They are a below average group.  If the Vikings want to reliably compete they need an above average group.  

There is no ignoring or rationalizing that will explain away the fact that Rick and Zimmer neglect the offense for the sake of the defense.  If you cant see it, no problem.   If your season is made happy by having a number one D and going home empty handed in the playoffs, then good for you.  But there is no way you can convince me that a Nickle or Dime CB is needed as much as an offensive lineman on this sub par O line.  

The fact that you guys count the number of lineman and say “problem solved” or that you believe a late round pick is the same as a first round pick already rules you out of intelligent discussions. 

So you already think Flipper is a bust? Cuz he's doubtlessly the one who pushed Rick to sign the kid from the Eagles but what does he know.

And you already think Isidora can't play?

And you already think Minnesota can't add a good player to the Line in the next two rounds of what is inarguably a deeper interior O-Line class than the one that produced Elf in the 3rd last year?

Sounds to me like someone has their mind made up for sure. Intelligent discussion indeed.

@"Norse" said:

@"FSUVike" said:

@"Poiple" said: It isnt the number of O lineman.  It is the quality of them.  They are a below average group.  If the Vikings want to reliably compete they need an above average group.  

There is no ignoring or rationalizing that will explain away the fact that Rick and Zimmer neglect the offense for the sake of the defense.  If you cant see it, no problem.   If your season is made happy by having a number one D and going home empty handed in the playoffs, then good for you.  But there is no way you can convince me that a Nickle or Dime CB is needed as much as an offensive lineman on this sub par O line.  

The fact that you guys count the number of lineman and say “problem solved” or that you believe a late round pick is the same as a first round pick already rules you out of intelligent discussions. 

So you already think Flipper is a bust? Cuz he's doubtlessly the one who pushed Rick to sign the kid from the Eagles but what does he know.

And you already think Isidora can't play?

And you already think Minnesota can't add a good player to the Line in the next two rounds of what is inarguably a deeper interior O-Line class than the one that produced Elf in the 3rd last year?

Sounds to me like someone has their mind made up for sure. Intelligent discussion indeed.

I have yet to see much from Isidora to show he is the answer. Last season with all the injuries was his chance. And he had hardly any playing time. Bottom line is, the offense line is not going to improve signing tier 4 players. How many tier 4 players has Rick signed to the team in the last 3 years? "a lot"

@"FSUVike" said:

Are there only tier 4 players left in this draft? Cuz it keeps getting described over and over again as very deep. By like everyone.

So if this is a deeper interior lineman draft than last year when they snagged Elf in the 3rd why should they reach in the first?

Seriously. Answer that question instead of responding with generalizations.

And this question is for everyone. Why should they reach in the first when the consensus is that there's serious value in the 2nd and 3rd and the guys they really liked in round one were already gone?

@"MarkSP18" said:

@"ATXVIKE" said: Come on we've drafted 5 dbs in the 1st or 2nd  rd since 2011...when is this group done being built....otoh just 2 Ol since then in 1st and 3rd  rds. FUCK this reasoning...start building a decent OL!!!!!! 3 yrs in a row it's been a shit show on the OL. even last yr had dismal display. I rarely get upset about the draft. But we need OL help like 4 yrs ago. We had calls to trade back and geez we got a day 1 starting K returner....remember Cordarrel he could actually play a starting role day 1 beside K returner! Oh BTW the kid has issues and is short and slow! Great!

This is disingenuous.  While the Vikings only added a 1st and 3rd high draft pick lineman they also added 3 high priced free agents in Boone, Remmers, and Reiff.

You cannot say they have not tried to upgrade the line since 2011 without mentioning free agents.

It is unfortunate that they missed out on Beavers and Clemmings both of whom were 4th round picks.

The Packers selected Sitton and Lang in the 4th round.  The Panthers got Trai Turner after the Vikings took Clemmings.  The Patriots got Shaw Mason in the 4th round.

If the Vikings would have done better with those 4th round picks then maybe things would be different now.

Why are you here, Poiple? You don't like the FO, HC or QB. And  no matter how anyone presents a counterpoint you just shoot it down instead of debating the points.

Why are you here?

@"FSUVike" said:

And this question is for everyone. Why should they reach in the first when the consensus is that there's serious value in the 2nd and 3rd and the guys they really liked in round one were already gone?

• He is likely to play a part-time role or provide depth. Is depth and #3 CB important? Sure - but I think you can find nickelback/returners in later rounds. In round 1, I want someone with a shot to be a full-time starter. There were players like that still available.
• He has physical limitations: average size, average speed. Could he still be an NFL player? Yes, but those are reasons players go in later rounds. Round 1 is where you get players with something that's eye-popping, like, "Wow, he give us deep speed that might change an opponents' plans". There were players with impressive size and/or speed still available.
• His background isn't impressive. Legal problems, kicked out of UNC, junior college, one year at UCF. Again, there are NFL players with worse bios - but there were prospects with far better still available.
  

Dave Te Thomas compares him to Champ Bailey, hardly a nickel/dime returner...

@"Poiple" said: It seems the only thing Rick and Zim like more than defense is to be smarter than everyone else.  Kind of stunned they would actually do it.  

They already have the number #1 D and they scored ZERO regular season points. The turnover rate was terrible also.

Points win games.  Tackles arent points.  Interceptions arent points.  Sacks arent points.  Third down stops arent points.  

POINTS ARE POINTS.

Smgdmfh....

TDs, or touchdowns, are awarded in POINTS.  Said QB will be throwing to Thielen, Diggs, and Rudolph, among others.

I think that the "POINTS" issue has, indeed, gotten a smidgen of attention.

@"Poiple" said:

@"MarkSP18" said:

@"ATXVIKE" said: Come on we've drafted 5 dbs in the 1st or 2nd  rd since 2011...when is this group done being built....otoh just 2 Ol since then in 1st and 3rd  rds. FUCK this reasoning...start building a decent OL!!!!!! 3 yrs in a row it's been a shit show on the OL. even last yr had dismal display. I rarely get upset about the draft. But we need OL help like 4 yrs ago. We had calls to trade back and geez we got a day 1 starting K returner....remember Cordarrel he could actually play a starting role day 1 beside K returner! Oh BTW the kid has issues and is short and slow! Great!

This is disingenuous.  While the Vikings only added a 1st and 3rd high draft pick lineman they also added 3 high priced free agents in Boone, Remmers, and Reiff.

You cannot say they have not tried to upgrade the line since 2011 without mentioning free agents.

It is unfortunate that they missed out on Beavers and Clemmings both of whom were 4th round picks.

The Packers selected Sitton and Lang in the 4th round.  The Panthers got Trai Turner after the Vikings took Clemmings.  The Patriots got Shaw Mason in the 4th round.

If the Vikings would have done better with those 4th round picks then maybe things would be different now.

all very good points.  Yet here we are... a stronger D, a weaker O and a team that struggles to put points on the board and a front office that doesnt seem to see a problem. 

It is telling to hear Rick and Zimmer talk about how it all unfolded so perfectly that they got their guy.  The fact that he is their guy (when he wasnt anyone elses) says pretty much all that needs to be said.  They didnt say they had their eyes on on some of the O lineman but there just werent any.  No, it unfolded the way that they wanted and its disappointing to see that they dont have the O line as a priority as they do a nickle or dime back.  

Sure there is plenty of draft left.  Maybe they get lucky and find a later round guy.  They have missed often enough with first and second round guys.

@"Jor-El" said:

@"FSUVike" said:

And this question is for everyone. Why should they reach in the first when the consensus is that there's serious value in the 2nd and 3rd and the guys they really liked in round one were already gone?

My answer is that I think Hughes himself was a reach.

• He is likely to play a part-time role or provide depth. Is depth and #3 CB important? Sure - but I think you can find nickelback/returners in later rounds. In round 1, I want someone with a shot to be a full-time starter. There were players like that still available.
• He has physical limitations: average size, average speed. Could he still be an NFL player? Yes, but those are reasons players go in later rounds. Round 1 is where you get players with something that's eye-popping, like, "Wow, he give us deep speed that might change an opponents' plans". There were players with impressive size and/or speed still available.
• His background isn't impressive. Legal problems, kicked out of UNC, junior college, one year at UCF. Again, there are NFL players with worse bios - but there were prospects with far better still available.
  

Speaking for myself, I didn't have my heart set on OL, but I wanted someone who might excite hope for the future: Maurice Hurst, Justin Reid, Dallas Goedert, DJ Chark, or an OL like James Daniels. Every draft pick is a crapshoot, I know - but I want someone at the top who has a shot at being an every-down star if it all works out. But they picked someone whose ceiling is a combo of Captain Munnerlyn and Marcus Sherels. Whoop-de-do...

@"FSUVike" said:

@"Norse" said:

@"FSUVike" said:

@"Poiple" said: It isnt the number of O lineman.  It is the quality of them.  They are a below average group.  If the Vikings want to reliably compete they need an above average group.  

There is no ignoring or rationalizing that will explain away the fact that Rick and Zimmer neglect the offense for the sake of the defense.  If you cant see it, no problem.   If your season is made happy by having a number one D and going home empty handed in the playoffs, then good for you.  But there is no way you can convince me that a Nickle or Dime CB is needed as much as an offensive lineman on this sub par O line.  

The fact that you guys count the number of lineman and say “problem solved” or that you believe a late round pick is the same as a first round pick already rules you out of intelligent discussions. 

So you already think Flipper is a bust? Cuz he's doubtlessly the one who pushed Rick to sign the kid from the Eagles but what does he know.

And you already think Isidora can't play?

And you already think Minnesota can't add a good player to the Line in the next two rounds of what is inarguably a deeper interior O-Line class than the one that produced Elf in the 3rd last year?

Sounds to me like someone has their mind made up for sure. Intelligent discussion indeed.

I have yet to see much from Isidora to show he is the answer. Last season with all the injuries was his chance. And he had hardly any playing time. Bottom line is, the offense line is not going to improve signing tier 4 players. How many tier 4 players has Rick signed to the team in the last 3 years? "a lot"

Are there only tier 4 players left in this draft? Cuz it keeps getting described over and over again as very deep. By like everyone.

So if this is a deeper interior lineman draft than last year when they snagged Elf in the 3rd why should they reach in the first?

Seriously. Answer that question instead of responding with generalizations.

And this question is for everyone. Why should they reach in the first when the consensus is that there's serious value in the 2nd and 3rd and the guys they really liked in round one were already gone?

@"Poiple" said:

@"MarkSP18" said:

@"ATXVIKE" said: Come on we've drafted 5 dbs in the 1st or 2nd  rd since 2011...when is this group done being built....otoh just 2 Ol since then in 1st and 3rd  rds. FUCK this reasoning...start building a decent OL!!!!!! 3 yrs in a row it's been a shit show on the OL. even last yr had dismal display. I rarely get upset about the draft. But we need OL help like 4 yrs ago. We had calls to trade back and geez we got a day 1 starting K returner....remember Cordarrel he could actually play a starting role day 1 beside K returner! Oh BTW the kid has issues and is short and slow! Great!

This is disingenuous.  While the Vikings only added a 1st and 3rd high draft pick lineman they also added 3 high priced free agents in Boone, Remmers, and Reiff.

You cannot say they have not tried to upgrade the line since 2011 without mentioning free agents.

It is unfortunate that they missed out on Beavers and Clemmings both of whom were 4th round picks.

The Packers selected Sitton and Lang in the 4th round.  The Panthers got Trai Turner after the Vikings took Clemmings.  The Patriots got Shaw Mason in the 4th round.

If the Vikings would have done better with those 4th round picks then maybe things would be different now.

all very good points.  Yet here we are... a stronger D, a weaker O and a team that struggles to put points on the board and a front office that doesnt seem to see a problem. 

It is telling to hear Rick and Zimmer talk about how it all unfolded so perfectly that they got their guy.  The fact that he is their guy (when he wasnt anyone elses) says pretty much all that needs to be said.  They didnt say they had their eyes on on some of the O lineman but there just werent any.  No, it unfolded the way that they wanted and its disappointing to see that they dont have the O line as a priority as they do a nickle or dime back.  

Sure there is plenty of draft left.  Maybe they get lucky and find a later round guy.  They have missed often enough with first and second round guys.

@"Wetlander" said:

@"FSUVike" said:

So you already think Flipper is a bust? Cuz he's doubtlessly the one who pushed Rick to sign the kid from the Eagles but what does he know.

And you already think Isidora can't play?

And you already think Minnesota can't add a good player to the Line in the next two rounds of what is inarguably a deeper interior O-Line class than the one that produced Elf in the 3rd last year?

Sounds to me like someone has their mind made up for sure. Intelligent discussion indeed.

You forgot the "BOOM" at the end...

@"Poiple" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"FSUVike" said:

So you already think Flipper is a bust? Cuz he's doubtlessly the one who pushed Rick to sign the kid from the Eagles but what does he know.

And you already think Isidora can't play?

And you already think Minnesota can't add a good player to the Line in the next two rounds of what is inarguably a deeper interior O-Line class than the one that produced Elf in the 3rd last year?

Sounds to me like someone has their mind made up for sure. Intelligent discussion indeed.

You forgot the "BOOM" at the end...

Boom

I'd take another Hughes/O'Neil draft, in a heart-beat...

Thats not to say the OL hasn't been mis-managed. But somewhere in between the Ponder/Treadwell draft for position picks (careful what you wish for) and what the Vikings have been doing with the OL over the years is a sweet-spot. One that's been alluding Viking Brass for a while. 

Could be that we're just in an era where they cant draft OL if their lives depended on it - kinda like Denny and Defense back in that era. 

@"Poiple" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"FSUVike" said:

So you already think Flipper is a bust? Cuz he's doubtlessly the one who pushed Rick to sign the kid from the Eagles but what does he know.

And you already think Isidora can't play?

And you already think Minnesota can't add a good player to the Line in the next two rounds of what is inarguably a deeper interior O-Line class than the one that produced Elf in the 3rd last year?

Sounds to me like someone has their mind made up for sure. Intelligent discussion indeed.

You forgot the "BOOM" at the end...

Boom

Interesting. I was thinking about Hughes this morning, partly related to the "Why not Will Hernandez?" aspect, but also because several people have commented in the past week that Rhodes was a disappointment in 2018 and maybe we should move him and let Hughes start.
But, though I liked what Hughes did in his shortened rookie season, remember his limitations: he's 5'10" and 190 soaking wet. That's going to replace Xavier Rhodes? Rhodes wasn't as impressive this year, but we also didn't have to face a lot of bigger WRs, partly because Jordy Nelson and others have left the NFCN. Josh Robinson got run out of town by Zimmer three years ago for being too short and spending most of a season injured...how is Hughes dramatically better?
Rhodes is still a good CB and vital to controlling taller receivers. Mac Alexander was one of the few defenders who improved in 2018 and has become a good nickelback. We found good depth in Holton Hill. But we passed Hernandez, Braden Smith, James Daniels...not to mention Nick Chubb. Hughes was a luxury pick by a team that had true needs.