Fun with stats Kirk Cousins

I'm pretty confident every QB gets hit by large angry men...I'm equally confident that not every QB fumbles 12 times in a season...

@"BarrNone55" said: I'm pretty confident every QB gets hit by large angry men...I'm equally confident that not every QB fumbles 12 times in a season...

it kind of speaks to a lack of pocket awareness IMO, especially when you couple it with the quality OL he was working with as previously shown.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"BarrNone55" said: I'm pretty confident every QB gets hit by large angry men...I'm equally confident that not every QB fumbles 12 times in a season...

it kind of speaks to a lack of pocket awareness IMO, especially when you couple it with the quality OL he was working with as previously shown.

Context. That quality O-Line has played how many snaps together? Didn't TJ Clemm see significantly snaps last year? Weren't there something like 5 different Centers last year? 

Doesn't explain away it all. The tape shows him time and again standing in the pocket forever with no idea the blindside rusher is closing in. That's poor pocket awareness plain and simple.

But just throwing out there that the dude played behind a great Line without accounting for how often they were banged up or using backups is not telling the whole story.

@"FSUVike" said: Context. That quality O-Line has played how many snaps together? Didn't TJ Clemm see significantly snaps last year? Weren't there something like 5 different Centers last year? 

Doesn't explain away it all. The tape shows him time and again standing in the pocket forever with no idea the blindside rusher is closing in. That's poor pocket awareness plain and simple.

But just throwing out there that the dude played behind a great Line without accounting for how often they were banged up or using backups is not telling the whole story.

and every team has injuries,  you said it yourself that he tends to hold the ball to long in the pocket and not recognize that his protection is breaking down or doesnt read overloads pre snap.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"FSUVike" said: Context. That quality O-Line has played how many snaps together? Didn't TJ Clemm see significantly snaps last year? Weren't there something like 5 different Centers last year? 

Doesn't explain away it all. The tape shows him time and again standing in the pocket forever with no idea the blindside rusher is closing in. That's poor pocket awareness plain and simple.

But just throwing out there that the dude played behind a great Line without accounting for how often they were banged up or using backups is not telling the whole story.

and every team has injuries,  you said it yourself that he tends to hold the ball to long in the pocket and not recognize that his protection is breaking down or doesnt read overloads pre snap.

@"FSUVike" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"FSUVike" said: Context. That quality O-Line has played how many snaps together? Didn't TJ Clemm see significantly snaps last year? Weren't there something like 5 different Centers last year? 

Doesn't explain away it all. The tape shows him time and again standing in the pocket forever with no idea the blindside rusher is closing in. That's poor pocket awareness plain and simple.

But just throwing out there that the dude played behind a great Line without accounting for how often they were banged up or using backups is not telling the whole story.

and every team has injuries,  you said it yourself that he tends to hold the ball to long in the pocket and not recognize that his protection is breaking down or doesnt read overloads pre snap.

I did. Just pointing out that folks can't say Kirk has always had a great O-Line that helped pad his stats without acknowledging that the O-Line has rarely been healthy.

Look. He's got flaws. You prefer Case over him? We've generally been of the same opinion regarding Keenum.

If Brad's knee is really degenerative and Teddy is still not fully recovered it would seem to be Kirk vs. Case. I lean Kirk due to better arm and more years of consistent performance, provided he doesn't break the bank.

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Why are we picking QB's based off stats? If you turn on Cousins film he's a very different player than the stats sheet shows. Put it this way, his stats and W/L record is comparable to Stafford. Watch both of them on film for 3+ games and you're going to wonder how. Stafford passes the eye test while Cousins has his moments but also makes some really boneheaded decisions with the ball. I am not anti-Cousins but I two have two big questions on how he fits in MN. 

1. He is much better throwing in-breaking routes than towards the boundary. He is more effective and visibly more comfortable when throwing up the seam. McVay and Gruden implemented a lot of skinny posts in 2016 to take advantage of it. It's an easy read and they have a natural mismatch with Crowder/Grant in the slot. On anything out breaking Kirk is fine when he can put it on a line. But anything with air under it is inaccurate.  In 2017 the Vikings dominated on the boundaries. They ran some underneath drags and rubs, but the majority of their production came on the outsides of the field. So with Cousins you're going to need to change what you were good at a season ago to play to his strengths. 

2. Taking Kirk out of his current offense and plopping him into DeFilippo's system is riskier than most people think. When Kirk understands his keys and has a pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing, things go smoothly. He's been surrounded by some of the best offensive minds in the game the past three years to help slow things down for him. The built in keys have served him extremely well. When things don't go to plan or Kirk's surprised things go off the rails pretty quick. That's really where Case shined last year, making the improbable plays. But you're forced questioning how effective Kirk will be if he doesn't have the same level of supporting cast from a coaching standpoint. Nothing against DeFilippo or Stefanski, change just can lead to surprises. 

I guess I prefer a guy like Case(a marginally talented gamer that thrives improvising) to a guy like Kirk 'might be' i.e. needs everything to be set up nicely and flounders when things go sideways.  That is my biggest reservation with Kirk and the big money people are speculating about.
IMO Teddy(if healthy and back to 2016 form)bridges a bit of that gap where he can improvise and move but can also work well within the system when it is working.  He's not the school yard gun slinger Case is but he also doesn't fold when things get messy like it appears Kirk might.

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Why are we picking QB's based off stats? If you turn on Cousins film he's a very different player than the stats sheet shows. Put it this way, his stats and W/L record is comparable to Stafford. Watch both of them on film for 3+ games and you're going to wonder how. Stafford passes the eye test while Cousins has his moments but also makes some really boneheaded decisions with the ball. I am not anti-Cousins but I two have two big questions on how he fits in MN. 

1. He is much better throwing in-breaking routes than towards the boundary. He is more effective and visibly more comfortable when throwing up the seam. McVay and Gruden implemented a lot of skinny posts in 2016 to take advantage of it. It's an easy read and they have a natural mismatch with Crowder/Grant in the slot. On anything out breaking Kirk is fine when he can put it on a line. But anything with air under it is inaccurate.  In 2017 the Vikings dominated on the boundaries. They ran some underneath drags and rubs, but the majority of their production came on the outsides of the field. So with Cousins you're going to need to change what you were good at a season ago to play to his strengths. 

2. Taking Kirk out of his current offense and plopping him into DeFilippo's system is riskier than most people think. When Kirk understands his keys and has a pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing, things go smoothly. He's been surrounded by some of the best offensive minds in the game the past three years to help slow things down for him. The built in keys have served him extremely well. When things don't go to plan or Kirk's surprised things go off the rails pretty quick. That's really where Case shined last year, making the improbable plays. But you're forced questioning how effective Kirk will be if he doesn't have the same level of supporting cast from a coaching standpoint. Nothing against DeFilippo or Stefanski, change just can lead to surprises. 

Interesting observation.   So you think Kirk has reached his ceiling and would never get any better in the areas that you see as deficient?

After all, it was his first 3 years starting.  It's not like he has played 6 or 7 years and is still as you describe.

Maybe he has reached his ceiling and this is all a team would get?

If it were you, who would you try to sign?

@"MarkSP18" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Why are we picking QB's based off stats? If you turn on Cousins film he's a very different player than the stats sheet shows. Put it this way, his stats and W/L record is comparable to Stafford. Watch both of them on film for 3+ games and you're going to wonder how. Stafford passes the eye test while Cousins has his moments but also makes some really boneheaded decisions with the ball. I am not anti-Cousins but I two have two big questions on how he fits in MN. 

1. He is much better throwing in-breaking routes than towards the boundary. He is more effective and visibly more comfortable when throwing up the seam. McVay and Gruden implemented a lot of skinny posts in 2016 to take advantage of it. It's an easy read and they have a natural mismatch with Crowder/Grant in the slot. On anything out breaking Kirk is fine when he can put it on a line. But anything with air under it is inaccurate.  In 2017 the Vikings dominated on the boundaries. They ran some underneath drags and rubs, but the majority of their production came on the outsides of the field. So with Cousins you're going to need to change what you were good at a season ago to play to his strengths. 

2. Taking Kirk out of his current offense and plopping him into DeFilippo's system is riskier than most people think. When Kirk understands his keys and has a pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing, things go smoothly. He's been surrounded by some of the best offensive minds in the game the past three years to help slow things down for him. The built in keys have served him extremely well. When things don't go to plan or Kirk's surprised things go off the rails pretty quick. That's really where Case shined last year, making the improbable plays. But you're forced questioning how effective Kirk will be if he doesn't have the same level of supporting cast from a coaching standpoint. Nothing against DeFilippo or Stefanski, change just can lead to surprises. 

Interesting observation.   So you think Kirk has reached his ceiling and would never get any better in the areas that you see as deficient?

After all, it was his first 3 years starting.  It's not like he has played 6 or 7 years and is still as you describe.

Maybe he has reached his ceiling and this is all a team would get?

If it were you, who would you try to sign?

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MarkSP18" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Why are we picking QB's based off stats? If you turn on Cousins film he's a very different player than the stats sheet shows. Put it this way, his stats and W/L record is comparable to Stafford. Watch both of them on film for 3+ games and you're going to wonder how. Stafford passes the eye test while Cousins has his moments but also makes some really boneheaded decisions with the ball. I am not anti-Cousins but I two have two big questions on how he fits in MN. 

1. He is much better throwing in-breaking routes than towards the boundary. He is more effective and visibly more comfortable when throwing up the seam. McVay and Gruden implemented a lot of skinny posts in 2016 to take advantage of it. It's an easy read and they have a natural mismatch with Crowder/Grant in the slot. On anything out breaking Kirk is fine when he can put it on a line. But anything with air under it is inaccurate.  In 2017 the Vikings dominated on the boundaries. They ran some underneath drags and rubs, but the majority of their production came on the outsides of the field. So with Cousins you're going to need to change what you were good at a season ago to play to his strengths. 

2. Taking Kirk out of his current offense and plopping him into DeFilippo's system is riskier than most people think. When Kirk understands his keys and has a pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing, things go smoothly. He's been surrounded by some of the best offensive minds in the game the past three years to help slow things down for him. The built in keys have served him extremely well. When things don't go to plan or Kirk's surprised things go off the rails pretty quick. That's really where Case shined last year, making the improbable plays. But you're forced questioning how effective Kirk will be if he doesn't have the same level of supporting cast from a coaching standpoint. Nothing against DeFilippo or Stefanski, change just can lead to surprises. 

Interesting observation.   So you think Kirk has reached his ceiling and would never get any better in the areas that you see as deficient?

After all, it was his first 3 years starting.  It's not like he has played 6 or 7 years and is still as you describe.

Maybe he has reached his ceiling and this is all a team would get?

If it were you, who would you try to sign?

He could improve, but I don't think it would be fair to expect him to turn a deficiency into a strength. The point I was trying to get across is that although he had great stats in Washington, it doesn't mean you can just drop him into a new environment and expect the same thing. 

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MarkSP18" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Why are we picking QB's based off stats? If you turn on Cousins film he's a very different player than the stats sheet shows. Put it this way, his stats and W/L record is comparable to Stafford. Watch both of them on film for 3+ games and you're going to wonder how. Stafford passes the eye test while Cousins has his moments but also makes some really boneheaded decisions with the ball. I am not anti-Cousins but I two have two big questions on how he fits in MN. 

1. He is much better throwing in-breaking routes than towards the boundary. He is more effective and visibly more comfortable when throwing up the seam. McVay and Gruden implemented a lot of skinny posts in 2016 to take advantage of it. It's an easy read and they have a natural mismatch with Crowder/Grant in the slot. On anything out breaking Kirk is fine when he can put it on a line. But anything with air under it is inaccurate.  In 2017 the Vikings dominated on the boundaries. They ran some underneath drags and rubs, but the majority of their production came on the outsides of the field. So with Cousins you're going to need to change what you were good at a season ago to play to his strengths. 

2. Taking Kirk out of his current offense and plopping him into DeFilippo's system is riskier than most people think. When Kirk understands his keys and has a pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing, things go smoothly. He's been surrounded by some of the best offensive minds in the game the past three years to help slow things down for him. The built in keys have served him extremely well. When things don't go to plan or Kirk's surprised things go off the rails pretty quick. That's really where Case shined last year, making the improbable plays. But you're forced questioning how effective Kirk will be if he doesn't have the same level of supporting cast from a coaching standpoint. Nothing against DeFilippo or Stefanski, change just can lead to surprises. 

Interesting observation.   So you think Kirk has reached his ceiling and would never get any better in the areas that you see as deficient?

After all, it was his first 3 years starting.  It's not like he has played 6 or 7 years and is still as you describe.

Maybe he has reached his ceiling and this is all a team would get?

If it were you, who would you try to sign?

He could improve, but I don't think it would be fair to expect him to turn a deficiency into a strength. The point I was trying to get across is that although he had great stats in Washington, it doesn't mean you can just drop him into a new environment and expect the same thing. 

@"StickyBun" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@"MarkSP18" said:

@"Geoff Nichols" said: Why are we picking QB's based off stats? If you turn on Cousins film he's a very different player than the stats sheet shows. Put it this way, his stats and W/L record is comparable to Stafford. Watch both of them on film for 3+ games and you're going to wonder how. Stafford passes the eye test while Cousins has his moments but also makes some really boneheaded decisions with the ball. I am not anti-Cousins but I two have two big questions on how he fits in MN. 

1. He is much better throwing in-breaking routes than towards the boundary. He is more effective and visibly more comfortable when throwing up the seam. McVay and Gruden implemented a lot of skinny posts in 2016 to take advantage of it. It's an easy read and they have a natural mismatch with Crowder/Grant in the slot. On anything out breaking Kirk is fine when he can put it on a line. But anything with air under it is inaccurate.  In 2017 the Vikings dominated on the boundaries. They ran some underneath drags and rubs, but the majority of their production came on the outsides of the field. So with Cousins you're going to need to change what you were good at a season ago to play to his strengths. 

2. Taking Kirk out of his current offense and plopping him into DeFilippo's system is riskier than most people think. When Kirk understands his keys and has a pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing, things go smoothly. He's been surrounded by some of the best offensive minds in the game the past three years to help slow things down for him. The built in keys have served him extremely well. When things don't go to plan or Kirk's surprised things go off the rails pretty quick. That's really where Case shined last year, making the improbable plays. But you're forced questioning how effective Kirk will be if he doesn't have the same level of supporting cast from a coaching standpoint. Nothing against DeFilippo or Stefanski, change just can lead to surprises. 

Interesting observation.   So you think Kirk has reached his ceiling and would never get any better in the areas that you see as deficient?

After all, it was his first 3 years starting.  It's not like he has played 6 or 7 years and is still as you describe.

Maybe he has reached his ceiling and this is all a team would get?

If it were you, who would you try to sign?

He could improve, but I don't think it would be fair to expect him to turn a deficiency into a strength. The point I was trying to get across is that although he had great stats in Washington, it doesn't mean you can just drop him into a new environment and expect the same thing. 

The point is dropping him in a better environment, like Keenum took advantage of. Cousins ceiling is higher. But the stink of upper mediocrity from Zimmer today at his presser leaves me not with high hopes. He's limited (Zimmer). Minnesota isn't going to win a Super Bowl with their defense. 

The environment is better, but the offensive system isn't. 

It is hard to say that as Flip has not installed his tweeks to said system.

@"kmillard" said: The environment is better, but the offensive system isn't.  It is hard to say that as Flip has not installed his tweeks to said system.

Agreed that he will put his spin on things. But he did say that he is going to get things rather consistent. 

I think I know about QBs as much as most people here - which is diddly squat.  And I've been wrong about players - I was wrong about Thielen.  I was wrong about Culpepper (had I only known we'd still be searching for another QB as good as him 18 years later...)

But I like to think that I watch enough football to have some insight.  The thing that really strikes me is continuity.  Aside from Favre, no QB since Culpepper up through Bradford was able to walk in and win.  Bradford came to town and everything clicked.  Then the very next year, Bradford goes down and Case Freaking Keenum jumps in and doesn't miss a beat.  That had a lot to do with them as players, and a lot to do with their supporting cast, including an all-time great defense.  That doesn't really mean to me that anybody - even the hottest free agent QB - can just walk into town, take the reigns, and lead this team to the Superbowl.  The odds are stacked against it not happening.

Case has the continuity.  Behind him, Bradford has it.  And Bradford is the best quarterback out of all of them, IMO.  But even though Bradford is the best quarterback, Case does have a magic horse shoe up his ass.  He won a few games that no other QB would have.  Up through even the New Orleans game people were doubting him and because he ended up with one loss at the end of the season on a weekend when only 4 quarterbacks were left in the mix, he's all of a sudden a limited backup who can't get it done.

What do you want in a quarterback?

*  An arm
*  The ability to lead
*  The ability to come from behind
*  The ability to win in clutch moments
*  Good decisions with the ball
*  Hard to sack
*  Calm under pressure
*  A good relationship with the OL and the WRs
*  Throwing balls that can be caught in stride
*  Accuracy

Bradford and Cousins have arms.  Case and Teddy have the ability to lead.  Case, maybe Bradford have the ability to come from behind.  Case wins in clutch moments.  Teddy has a history with them, but not really in purple.  Bradford and Cousins have had a few good ones, but Case... Minnesota miracle clearly separates him.  Teddy and Sam make more good decisions with the ball and have both been criticized as a result.  Case and Cousins aren't all that bad compared with a lot of other quarterbacks.  Case wins at being hard to sack.  I don't know about Cousins.  I've seen Bradford stand tall and get throws out.  Teddy's legs were a pretty big asset in that department in the past.  For being in the situation he was in - Case displayed remarkable calm in New Orleans.  Teddy has ice in his veins.  Bradford seems as chill as they come.  Again, I'm in the dark on Cousins.  Case, Sam, and Teddy have good relations with our current offensive team.  Sam put on a clinic against NO hitting receivers in stride.  I've seen Case, Teddy, and Cousins do it.   Teddy is maybe the loser in this category, but he's better than many QBs we've gone through.  Accuracy goes to Sam.  Cousins has to be up there - you don't hit 4k yards without it.  Case isn't Josh Freeman, but that magic horseshoe has paid off for him.  When Teddy can throw for more than 15 TDs in a season, I'll entertain the idea that he's accurate.  Until then, I'm attributing his completion percentage to the short throws. 

I see Teddy as a low-dollar backup who might shine pretty bright in the right situation.  I see Kirk Cousins as a risk I'm a little leery of.  I'm surprised that Case checks so many boxes for me.  We have recent first round picks invested in both Sam and Teddy.

All this is to say that Zimmer's D better be on point next year - especially early on.  This is kind of like the draft when we were thinking about Bortles, Manziel, Carr, or Bridgewater.  It's pretty easy to get behind any of them.  It's pretty easy to be nervous about any of them.  But you know what?  This time we're getting two of them!

By the way, did you know that Manziel was the last quarterback to win in a Browns uniform?  In December of 2015.

@"Steve" said: I think I know about QBs as much as most people here - which is diddly squat.  And I've been wrong about players - I was wrong about Thielen.  I was wrong about Culpepper (had I only known we'd still be searching for another QB as good as him 18 years later...)

But I like to think that I watch enough football to have some insight.  The thing that really strikes me is continuity.  Aside from Favre, no QB since Culpepper up through Bradford was able to walk in and win.  Bradford came to town and everything clicked.  Then the very next year, Bradford goes down and Case Freaking Keenum jumps in and doesn't miss a beat.  That had a lot to do with them as players, and a lot to do with their supporting cast, including an all-time great defense.  That doesn't really mean to me that anybody - even the hottest free agent QB - can just walk into town, take the reigns, and lead this team to the Superbowl.  The odds are stacked against it not happening.

Case has the continuity.  Behind him, Bradford has it.  And Bradford is the best quarterback out of all of them, IMO.  But even though Bradford is the best quarterback, Case does have a magic horse shoe up his ass.  He won a few games that no other QB would have.  Up through even the New Orleans game people were doubting him and because he ended up with one loss at the end of the season on a weekend when only 4 quarterbacks were left in the mix, he's all of a sudden a limited backup who can't get it done.

What do you want in a quarterback?

*  An arm
*  The ability to lead
*  The ability to come from behind
*  The ability to win in clutch moments
*  Good decisions with the ball
*  Hard to sack
*  Calm under pressure
*  A good relationship with the OL and the WRs
*  Throwing balls that can be caught in stride
*  Accuracy

Bradford and Cousins have arms.  Case and Teddy have the ability to lead.  Case, maybe Bradford have the ability to come from behind.  Case wins in clutch moments.  Teddy has a history with them, but not really in purple.  Bradford and Cousins have had a few good ones, but Case... Minnesota miracle clearly separates him.  Teddy and Sam make more good decisions with the ball and have both been criticized as a result.  Case and Cousins aren't all that bad compared with a lot of other quarterbacks.  Case wins at being hard to sack.  I don't know about Cousins.  I've seen Bradford stand tall and get throws out.  Teddy's legs were a pretty big asset in that department in the past.  For being in the situation he was in - Case displayed remarkable calm in New Orleans.  Teddy has ice in his veins.  Bradford seems as chill as they come.  Again, I'm in the dark on Cousins.  Case, Sam, and Teddy have good relations with our current offensive team.  Sam put on a clinic against NO hitting receivers in stride.  I've seen Case, Teddy, and Cousins do it.   Teddy is maybe the loser in this category, but he's better than many QBs we've gone through.  Accuracy goes to Sam.  Cousins has to be up there - you don't hit 4k yards without it.  Case isn't Josh Freeman, but that magic horseshoe has paid off for him.  When Teddy can throw for more than 15 TDs in a season, I'll entertain the idea that he's accurate.  Until then, I'm attributing his completion percentage to the short throws. 

I see Teddy as a low-dollar backup who might shine pretty bright in the right situation.  I see Kirk Cousins as a risk I'm a little leery of.  I'm surprised that Case checks so many boxes for me.  We have recent first round picks invested in both Sam and Teddy.

All this is to say that Zimmer's D better be on point next year - especially early on.  This is kind of like the draft when we were thinking about Bortles, Manziel, Carr, or Bridgewater.  It's pretty easy to get behind any of them.  It's pretty easy to be nervous about any of them.  But you know what?  This time we're getting two of them!

By the way, did you know that Manziel was the last quarterback to win in a Browns uniform?  In December of 2015.

Those are my priorities in a QB, leadership being first because in many ways in encompasses being able to do the others.  Accuracy has to be there for long term success-more so than arm strength.

My ONLY problems with Case are his arm is average at best, his accuracy is about the same, and his decision making is questionable at times-bad combos IMO but he overcomes that with his other traits many times.  He has the other intangibles so I'm not against him for the right price but I would be searching high and low to improve that spot if he was the presumptive starter.