WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM CASE?

@"silverjoel" said: I don't understand why people think you can't support both QBs. 

Keenum has played well, but has some flaws that many believe will show up during games against better competition.  I don't know how that is some outlandish take.  

Some believe the time away for Bridgewater will be detrimental to his game.  Another reasonable take.

Some believe that Bridgewater would do better against the tougher competition than Keenum.  Fair take. 

Zimmer makes the call.  I will not proclaim Zimmer as a terrible coach if he sticks with Keenum.  What will you say if Zimmer goes to Bridgewater?  Ask yourself that.

The question still remains What more do you expect from Case?

Left on the schedule we have the following games that I believe that Case should beat if our defense also doesn't forget to show up:

That would put us at 10 wins with a win over Detroit (and an outside chance Packers) effectively handing us the division.

@"mgobluevikes" said:

@"silverjoel" said: I don't understand why people think you can't support both QBs. 

Keenum has played well, but has some flaws that many believe will show up during games against better competition.  I don't know how that is some outlandish take.  

Some believe the time away for Bridgewater will be detrimental to his game.  Another reasonable take.

Some believe that Bridgewater would do better against the tougher competition than Keenum.  Fair take. 

Zimmer makes the call.  I will not proclaim Zimmer as a terrible coach if he sticks with Keenum.  What will you say if Zimmer goes to Bridgewater?  Ask yourself that.

That 3rd point is where I think most have an issue. With Teddy not having seen live bullets in nearly 16 months, how anyone could expect him to come in and immediately start playing better than what we've seen out of Keenum is a fools bet. 

While I certainly am not giving up on Teddy, or doubting that he has the higher upside long term, changing horses this deep in the season when Keenum is playing well, because the grass MIGHT be greener while betting our playoff hopes on him is beyond wishful thinking. 

@"silverjoel" said:And Watson can't come into the NFL as a rookie and play like he did.  And Geoff can't go from one of the worst rookie QBs ever and be successful the next year.  And Wentz can't lead the NFL in TD passes after last year (I think he's still ahead).  And the Falcons are surely going to win the super bowl because of all of the momentum going into the second half.  The status quo isn't going to win in the playoffs.  Talking about QB play, there's really only 3 scenarios: Bridgewater plays better than Keenum, Bridgewater plays about the same as Keenum or Bridgewater plays worse than Keenum.  Since the only scenario that hurts the team is if Bridgewater is worse, there's a 66% chance of nothing bad happening.

 The Rams are the toughest defense the Vikings have faced.  8th in sacks, 2nd in INTs and first in overall turnovers.  If Keenum has a good game, that doesn't mean Bridgewater wouldn't have had a good game.  If Keenum has a bad game, that doesn't mean that Bridgewater wouldn't have had a bad game.

 Last year, the QB faced his old team.  Not only did they destroy him, because they knew his tendencies, but members of the Eagles publicly declared how to force Bradford to do what the defense wants. See, I can be negative about things too.

@"dadevike" said: I was hoping that Case was going to shut everyone up with the way he played the first 6 or 7 possessions against Washington. He was getting it done in spades. Yes, there were some scary passes. But almost everything he did came out right.  Then came the interceptions. And you could feel things start to change.  Suddenly, the coaches were doubting Case. Teddy gets up and grabs his helmet. Was he coming in? Shurmur almost stopped calling passes.  But Teddy stayed on the bench and Shurmur called just enough pass plays to get one more FG before shutting it down. So a game that we led in the second half 35-17 (thanks largely to Case) we let Washington back in the game (thanks largely to Case) and hang on to win 38-30. It's not just the fans who have their doubts about Case. The coaches do, too. And they are caused by Case. 

What more do we want from Case?  Perfection.  Isn't that what every fan wants?  Will we get it?  No.  Would we get it from Teddy?  No. 

So it isn't about what we want from Case, it is what we want from the team.  The best chance to win the whole damn thing.

@"PapaScott" said:

@"silverjoel" said: I don't understand why people think you can't support both QBs. 

Keenum has played well, but has some flaws that many believe will show up during games against better competition.  I don't know how that is some outlandish take.  

Some believe the time away for Bridgewater will be detrimental to his game.  Another reasonable take.

Some believe that Bridgewater would do better against the tougher competition than Keenum.  Fair take. 

Zimmer makes the call.  I will not proclaim Zimmer as a terrible coach if he sticks with Keenum.  What will you say if Zimmer goes to Bridgewater?  Ask yourself that.

I never said I don't support Teddy or Case or any other viking QB  not sure who in this thread you are referring to.
What fans believe really doesn't matter.  and I raised the question what more do you expect from Case? as a legitimate question to point out that there is really not much if any more you can expect from him, with the bottom line being wins and most important at that.  again I don't know where the Outlandish statement comes from.  Not me 
Bridgewater really has place in this thread as the focus and question is what more do you expect from Case?
same can be said for the the next statement, not about Bridgewater or who should be starting.
Again this is not about Bridgewater as to the answer from me to your question I will be nervous is Zimmer goes to Bridgewater.  I don't trust his knee, and ability to escape pressure.  Teddy is not starting this week (per zimmer) so if he decides to go with Teddy against the Rams there would be a good reason, but I will still be nervous.  

The question still remains What more do you expect from Case?

@"greediron" said:

@"dadevike" said: I was hoping that Case was going to shut everyone up with the way he played the first 6 or 7 possessions against Washington. He was getting it done in spades. Yes, there were some scary passes. But almost everything he did came out right.  Then came the interceptions. And you could feel things start to change.  Suddenly, the coaches were doubting Case. Teddy gets up and grabs his helmet. Was he coming in? Shurmur almost stopped calling passes.  But Teddy stayed on the bench and Shurmur called just enough pass plays to get one more FG before shutting it down. So a game that we led in the second half 35-17 (thanks largely to Case) we let Washington back in the game (thanks largely to Case) and hang on to win 38-30. It's not just the fans who have their doubts about Case. The coaches do, too. And they are caused by Case. 

Bingo.  The attitude on offense changed.  And there was a reason.

@"greediron" said: What more do we want from Case?  Perfection.  Isn't that what every fan wants?  Will we get it?  No.  Would we get it from Teddy?  No. 

So it isn't about what we want from Case, it is what we want from the team.  The best chance to win the whole damn thing.

I think the desire to win the game over road the desire to play Teddy. 

As to the proof, I saw it.  Multiple people have mentioned it.  After the 2nd INT, the offense went tight.   They didn't "keep throwing it"  Case threw minimal and very safe throws.  And the FG?  53 yards.  Not really much confidence in Case if we settled for a 53 yard Forbath attempt.  We needed to score early in the 4th and we almost abandoned the passing game other than a few short safe throws.

Greed, I just found this on Wikipedia.  (looking to see if Case has any playoff experience)   He recorded a Rams record near-"perfect game" against the Buccaneers, achieving a 158.0 passer rating by going 14 for 17 for 234 yards and two touchdowns in the last home game in the history of the St. Louis Rams.

@"PapaScott" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"dadevike" said: I was hoping that Case was going to shut everyone up with the way he played the first 6 or 7 possessions against Washington. He was getting it done in spades. Yes, there were some scary passes. But almost everything he did came out right.  Then came the interceptions. And you could feel things start to change.  Suddenly, the coaches were doubting Case. Teddy gets up and grabs his helmet. Was he coming in? Shurmur almost stopped calling passes.  But Teddy stayed on the bench and Shurmur called just enough pass plays to get one more FG before shutting it down. So a game that we led in the second half 35-17 (thanks largely to Case) we let Washington back in the game (thanks largely to Case) and hang on to win 38-30. It's not just the fans who have their doubts about Case. The coaches do, too. And they are caused by Case. 

Bingo.  The attitude on offense changed.  And there was a reason.

The attitude on the offense changed?  how?  Momentum changed for sure that happens in games.  And Teddy had the helmet on most of the game and it means nothing.  Again and I really didn't want to turn this into a teddy vs case thread.  IF The coaches were looking for an opportunity to put Teddy in would they not do it after the 2nd interception?  Why didn't they?   What proof is there that the coaches were doubting Case?  did they just stick to running the ball?  NO they kept throwing the ball and Case led them to a field goal.  Why would they even call pass plays if they didn't have trust in Case up by 18 points?
So if throwing 2 INterceptions back to back would not be a reason to pull your starter than what would?  The question from reporters should not be "Do you know who your starter is"?  it should be "Why did you keep Case in the game after throwing back to back interceptions"?  If they doubted Case they would not have chosen him as the back up QB in the preseason, if they doubted Case they would have pulled him after the second interception.  If they doubted Case they would not have let him throw another pass.

@"greediron" said: I think the desire to win the game over road the desire to play Teddy. 

As to the proof, I saw it.  Multiple people have mentioned it.  After the 2nd INT, the offense went tight.   They didn't "keep throwing it"  Case threw minimal and very safe throws.  And the FG?  53 yards.  Not really much confidence in Case if we settled for a 53 yard Forbath attempt.  We needed to score early in the 4th and we almost abandoned the passing game other than a few short safe throws.

@"silverjoel" said:

@"PapaScott" said:

@"silverjoel" said: I don't understand why people think you can't support both QBs. 

Keenum has played well, but has some flaws that many believe will show up during games against better competition.  I don't know how that is some outlandish take.  

Some believe the time away for Bridgewater will be detrimental to his game.  Another reasonable take.

Some believe that Bridgewater would do better against the tougher competition than Keenum.  Fair take. 

Zimmer makes the call.  I will not proclaim Zimmer as a terrible coach if he sticks with Keenum.  What will you say if Zimmer goes to Bridgewater?  Ask yourself that.

I never said I don't support Teddy or Case or any other viking QB  not sure who in this thread you are referring to.
What fans believe really doesn't matter.  and I raised the question what more do you expect from Case? as a legitimate question to point out that there is really not much if any more you can expect from him, with the bottom line being wins and most important at that.  again I don't know where the Outlandish statement comes from.  Not me 
Bridgewater really has place in this thread as the focus and question is what more do you expect from Case?
same can be said for the the next statement, not about Bridgewater or who should be starting.
Again this is not about Bridgewater as to the answer from me to your question I will be nervous is Zimmer goes to Bridgewater.  I don't trust his knee, and ability to escape pressure.  Teddy is not starting this week (per zimmer) so if he decides to go with Teddy against the Rams there would be a good reason, but I will still be nervous.  

The question still remains What more do you expect from Case?

 Fair enough and my apologies if I derailed a little.  I don't think passer rating is the end all be all, but it's the best I can do.  I would like Keenum to perform better that the average QB against that opponent more often then not.  How he currently has done in passer rating:

Team - avg QB - Keenum 

Pit - 76.5 - 65.9
TB - 98.8 - 142.1 
Det - 82.8 - 76.9
Chi - 90.6 - 110.3 (half game)
GB - 95.9 - 78.7
Bal - 69.8 - 67.7 
Cle - 104.4 - 88.1
Was - 89.0 - 117.0

That's the best way I can put it in terms of tangible numbers.  Only 2.5 games out of 7.5 did Keenum perform better than the average.  I would want that at at least 50%.

Edit: And he has to have a good performance against one of the better defenses in the league (even if in a Vikings loss and garbage time doesn't count).

@"Mike Olson" said:

@"greediron" said: I think the desire to win the game over road the desire to play Teddy. 

As to the proof, I saw it.  Multiple people have mentioned it.  After the 2nd INT, the offense went tight.   They didn't "keep throwing it"  Case threw minimal and very safe throws.  And the FG?  53 yards.  Not really much confidence in Case if we settled for a 53 yard Forbath attempt.  We needed to score early in the 4th and we almost abandoned the passing game other than a few short safe throws.

Down, distance, clock, and score dictated the play calling. And sure the possibility that their defense was going to gamble against us in that situation had we thrown the ball likely led to them getting more conservative in the 4th with the lead. Pretty standard. 

@"PapaScott" said:

@"silverjoel" said:

@"PapaScott" said:

@"silverjoel" said: I don't understand why people think you can't support both QBs. 

Keenum has played well, but has some flaws that many believe will show up during games against better competition.  I don't know how that is some outlandish take.  

Some believe the time away for Bridgewater will be detrimental to his game.  Another reasonable take.

Some believe that Bridgewater would do better against the tougher competition than Keenum.  Fair take. 

Zimmer makes the call.  I will not proclaim Zimmer as a terrible coach if he sticks with Keenum.  What will you say if Zimmer goes to Bridgewater?  Ask yourself that.

I never said I don't support Teddy or Case or any other viking QB  not sure who in this thread you are referring to.
What fans believe really doesn't matter.  and I raised the question what more do you expect from Case? as a legitimate question to point out that there is really not much if any more you can expect from him, with the bottom line being wins and most important at that.  again I don't know where the Outlandish statement comes from.  Not me 
Bridgewater really has place in this thread as the focus and question is what more do you expect from Case?
same can be said for the the next statement, not about Bridgewater or who should be starting.
Again this is not about Bridgewater as to the answer from me to your question I will be nervous is Zimmer goes to Bridgewater.  I don't trust his knee, and ability to escape pressure.  Teddy is not starting this week (per zimmer) so if he decides to go with Teddy against the Rams there would be a good reason, but I will still be nervous.  

The question still remains What more do you expect from Case?

 Fair enough and my apologies if I derailed a little.  I don't think passer rating is the end all be all, but it's the best I can do.  I would like Keenum to perform better that the average QB against that opponent more often then not.  How he currently has done in passer rating:

Team - avg QB - Keenum 

Pit - 76.5 - 65.9
TB - 98.8 - 142.1 
Det - 82.8 - 76.9
Chi - 90.6 - 110.3 (half game)
GB - 95.9 - 78.7
Bal - 69.8 - 67.7 
Cle - 104.4 - 88.1
Was - 89.0 - 117.0

That's the best way I can put it in terms of tangible numbers.  Only 2.5 games out of 7.5 did Keenum perform better than the average.  I would want that at at least 50%.

Edit: And he has to have a good performance against one of the better defenses in the league (even if in a Vikings loss and garbage time doesn't count).

I think I can agree on consistency.  Not sure about your numbers, where did they come from?  Average QB rating for QB's that have played the opponent that Case played? seems like there is more to that store to get a better picture of performance.  Road vs Home  comparing QB's etc..
Interesting that Keenum's last performance in St.Louis was a near perfect game   He recorded a Rams record near-"perfect game" against the Buccaneers, achieving a 158.0 passer rating by going 14 for 17 for 234 yards and two touchdowns in the last home game in the history of the St. Louis Rams.    

@"medaille" said: Most of what was already said applies to my concerns.  I'm mostly worried about interceptions and him not really playing quality teams.  I think against the better teams, he'll try to force the ball too much and give the other team some easy interceptions.

@"silverjoel" said:

@"PapaScott" said:

@"silverjoel" said:

@"PapaScott" said:

@"silverjoel" said: I don't understand why people think you can't support both QBs. 

Keenum has played well, but has some flaws that many believe will show up during games against better competition.  I don't know how that is some outlandish take.  

Some believe the time away for Bridgewater will be detrimental to his game.  Another reasonable take.

Some believe that Bridgewater would do better against the tougher competition than Keenum.  Fair take. 

Zimmer makes the call.  I will not proclaim Zimmer as a terrible coach if he sticks with Keenum.  What will you say if Zimmer goes to Bridgewater?  Ask yourself that.

I never said I don't support Teddy or Case or any other viking QB  not sure who in this thread you are referring to.
What fans believe really doesn't matter.  and I raised the question what more do you expect from Case? as a legitimate question to point out that there is really not much if any more you can expect from him, with the bottom line being wins and most important at that.  again I don't know where the Outlandish statement comes from.  Not me 
Bridgewater really has place in this thread as the focus and question is what more do you expect from Case?
same can be said for the the next statement, not about Bridgewater or who should be starting.
Again this is not about Bridgewater as to the answer from me to your question I will be nervous is Zimmer goes to Bridgewater.  I don't trust his knee, and ability to escape pressure.  Teddy is not starting this week (per zimmer) so if he decides to go with Teddy against the Rams there would be a good reason, but I will still be nervous.  

The question still remains What more do you expect from Case?

 Fair enough and my apologies if I derailed a little.  I don't think passer rating is the end all be all, but it's the best I can do.  I would like Keenum to perform better that the average QB against that opponent more often then not.  How he currently has done in passer rating:

Team - avg QB - Keenum 

Pit - 76.5 - 65.9
TB - 98.8 - 142.1 
Det - 82.8 - 76.9
Chi - 90.6 - 110.3 (half game)
GB - 95.9 - 78.7
Bal - 69.8 - 67.7 
Cle - 104.4 - 88.1
Was - 89.0 - 117.0

That's the best way I can put it in terms of tangible numbers.  Only 2.5 games out of 7.5 did Keenum perform better than the average.  I would want that at at least 50%.

Edit: And he has to have a good performance against one of the better defenses in the league (even if in a Vikings loss and garbage time doesn't count).

I think I can agree on consistency.  Not sure about your numbers, where did they come from?  Average QB rating for QB's that have played the opponent that Case played? seems like there is more to that store to get a better picture of performance.  Road vs Home  comparing QB's etc..
Interesting that Keenum's last performance in St.Louis was a near perfect game   He recorded a Rams record near-"perfect game" against the Buccaneers, achieving a 158.0 passer rating by going 14 for 17 for 234 yards and two touchdowns in the last home game in the history of the St. Louis Rams.    

It's passer rating against.  A defensive stat.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/position/defense

And Bridgewater might hold the record for passer rating in a single game for the Vikings: 154.4 17/20, 231 yards, 4 passing TDs plus a rushing TD.

When we are up by 2 scores in the 4th quarter, why and the hell are we throwing anyways?

We naturally should have been trying to kill the clock. Incompletions are free timeouts.

After the 2nd INT, we ended up completing a nice 1st down on 3rd and 4 when Keenum threw a dagger over the middle to move the chains. 

There is no reason to line up in shotgun throwing the ball up 2 scores with 15 minutes to play. At some point, we need to kill the clock and the defense needs to make a stand.

The defensive schemes make the INTs interesting. On the 2nd INT, the safety was playing a man read. We had a lot of down field sucess exploting this all game. However, the first INT was thrown as if he assumed Rudolph was one on one and that the safety bailed somewhere else playing man coverage.

They kept a safety back for once and it bit us the first time. Then assuming they adjusted their coverage, we gift wrapped the 2nd one.