Another Terrible Coaching Performance by KOC
he's been lucky to be surrounded with a ton of talent.
Can't seem to put teams out of the game
Terrible in short yardage
Terrible red zone play calling
Has a mobile QB and designs what? 3 bootlegs all day?
Stuck on a RB that is no threat to any defense.
Played scared in the biggest moment.
Give me Flores as HC and bring in Reich for OC.
@"purplefaithful" said: So if I get this right....The QB throws 4 int's, is off on 85% of his throws all night, the coach limits his passing cause the guy is clearly in over his head..
So this is the coaches fault?
Yes. The KOC critics have never blamed the turnovers. Not sure why, you'd have to ask them. In their eyes apparently, there are no bad QBs, only bad coaches/play callers. Whatever is most convenient for their narrative. Yet KOC never gets any credit for Kirko having his best years under him strangely.
@"StickyBun" said:@"purplefaithful" said: So if I get this right....The QB throws 4 int's, is off on 85% of his throws all night, the coach limits his passing cause the guy is clearly in over his head..
So this is the coaches fault?
Yes. The KOC critics have never blamed the turnovers. Not sure why, you'd have to ask them. In their eyes apparently, there are no bad QBs, only bad coaches/play callers. Whatever is most convenient for their narrative. Yet KOC never gets any credit for Kirko having his best years under him strangely.
Yeah the "KO can't coach" narrative is bogus and way too strong for some around here. Not sure why. But I can admit last night and to some degree against Denver, I've been disappointed with what he's done/hasn't done. Hoping for better post-bye.
@"StickyBun" said:So to clarify if KOC played to win, ran plays on the last drive designed to help us get a first down instead of sitting on it, we still would have lost anyways? So it wouldn't have mattered if we played to win? Also, KOC had nothing to do with forcing Dobbs into playing from the pocket all night and being in a position to use his best abilities? Turnovers are a part of the game, coaching needs to find a way a way to make adjustments and adapt to adversity, both our HC and DC consistently fall apart in the face of big game moments. Last two losses were mostly contributed to poor coaching on both sides of the ball at the end of the game. If that was Zimmer, there would be 20 threads right now blasting him. And yes, KOC has gotten all the credit for turning Cousins around. He would be a great QB coach and that is where he will eventually end up.Yes. The KOC critics have never blamed the turnovers. Not sure why, you'd have to ask them. In their eyes apparently, there are no bad QBs, only bad coaches/play callers. Whatever is most convenient for their narrative. Yet KOC never gets any credit for Kirko having his best years under him strangely.
@"purplefaithful" said: So if I get this right....The QB throws 4 int's, is off on 85% of his throws all night, the coach limits his passing cause the guy is clearly in over his head..
So this is the coaches fault?
Exactly. KOC has had better games and will again. But when your QB throws 4 picks and folks wonder why he got conservative, you can only just shake your head.
Look at the stats for both the Bears games this season. “Very similar”
Kirk put up 12 points Dobbs put up 10.
But Dobbs had more turnovers in his game.
The first game Fields got knocked out of.
I blame coaching for a lot of the problems. KOC got out coached.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: So if I get this right....The QB throws 4 int's, is off on 85% of his throws all night, the coach limits his passing cause the guy is clearly in over his head..
So this is the coaches fault?
Exactly. KOC has had better games and will again. But when your QB throws 4 picks and folks wonder why he got conservative, you can only just shake your head.
So you feel it was the right call at the end of the game to run the ball up the middle twice and then a screen pass on 3rd and 10? The ball was at the 40, even after running twice, what did you have to lose by throwing downfield for the first? If he throws a pick it is still on their side of the field, it is not like the ball was at our 20. There was very little risk there to throw with that field position. But just to be clear all of you who are defending KOC thought those were the best 3 plays to run and not to make any attempt to get a first with the Bears only needing a FG to win and after seeing our defense fall apart last week in a similar situation?
I hate to admit it, but KOC was outcoached by Eberflus. The more time he and Dobbs have spent together working on this offense, the worse it looks. After 2 games, Teams have figured out how to attack Dobbs. Bring lots of pressure and he will make a ton of mistakes and be a turnover machine. The more structure that KOC has tried to add with Dobbs, his off script playmaking ability has disappeared. The passing scheme looks flawed with a lot of slow developing routes that don't have enough time to get open, and receivers who are not creating any separation. With his inaccuracy, tight window throws are now 50/50 balls. You can't coach "Not to Lose" and that is exactly what KOC did and admitted in his press conference. It will be an interesting Bye Week to see who they eventually decide to go with at QB vs. the Raiders.
@"JR44" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: So if I get this right....The QB throws 4 int's, is off on 85% of his throws all night, the coach limits his passing cause the guy is clearly in over his head..
So this is the coaches fault?
Exactly. KOC has had better games and will again. But when your QB throws 4 picks and folks wonder why he got conservative, you can only just shake your head.
So you feel it was the right call at the end of the game to run the ball up the middle twice and then a screen pass on 3rd and 10? The ball was at the 40, even after running twice, what did you have to lose by throwing downfield for the first? If he throws a pick it is still on their side of the field, it is not like the ball was at our 20. There was very little risk there to throw with that field position. But just to be clear all of you who are defending KOC thought those were the best 3 plays to run and not to make any attempt to get a first with the Bears only needing a FG to win and after seeing our defense fall apart last week in a similar situation?
For me personally, as a fan that is 'defending' KOC, he's not beyond reproach. I've never said that. I'm saying he's not a 'bad' coach or he's getting 'outcoached' as others are saying. He has his less than optimal play calling moments for sure. But he's an excellent HC IMO.
@"JR44" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: So if I get this right....The QB throws 4 int's, is off on 85% of his throws all night, the coach limits his passing cause the guy is clearly in over his head..
So this is the coaches fault?
Exactly. KOC has had better games and will again. But when your QB throws 4 picks and folks wonder why he got conservative, you can only just shake your head.
So you feel it was the right call at the end of the game to run the ball up the middle twice and then a screen pass on 3rd and 10? The ball was at the 40, even after running twice, what did you have to lose by throwing downfield for the first? If he throws a pick it is still on their side of the field, it is not like the ball was at our 20. There was very little risk there to throw with that field position. But just to be clear all of you who are defending KOC thought those were the best 3 plays to run and not to make any attempt to get a first with the Bears only needing a FG to win and after seeing our defense fall apart last week in a similar situation?
Yes. In a perfect world, your QB would be on target and you'd throw a high percentage stick or quick out on one of those downs. But in the real world, Dobbs was struggling with even those.Trust me, if we had called a pass downfield and Dobbs threw a pick, or was sacked deep in the pocket out of field goal range, or even threw an incompletion stopping the clock, the bitching would be even louder, and rightfully so. It was the right decision to run the ball in that situation.
I question why this team was built with no running game? Is that on KOC or Kwesi? If you have no balance on offense you are hamstrung. If you have no balance on offense, and your QB is shitty, you're done.
@"mgobluevikes" said: I question why this team was built with no running game? Is that on KOC or Kwesi? If you have no balance on offense you are hamstrung. If you have no balance on offense, and your QB is shitty, you're done.Yep. Moving on from Dalvin looks wise in hindsight, but there were other guys like Mostert, Singletary, Swift via trade, who were available around the same price as Mattison. Kudos to them for going after Akers, it's a bummer he got hurt. But this problem was clear to many going into the season.
It's hard to understand the reasoning on the last Chicago drive why Flores went into conservative mode and only rushed 3 or 4 guys. All game long the pressure made Fields uncomfortable yet on the last drive you could see the line stunt to the middle leaving the edge for Fields to scramble for a gain. Unfucking real that he allowed that to happen.
How many games do we have to see the running back run into the backs of the offensive line on early downs for minimal gains setting up 3rd and long?
@"purplefaithful" said: So if I get this right....The QB throws 4 int's, is off on 85% of his throws all night, the coach limits his passing cause the guy is clearly in over his head..
So this is the coaches fault?
Agree, 7 turnovers in the last two losses and a QB that looks completely lost. Yet somehow KOC's coaching is where so many want to place the blame. How could he trust Dobbs to be successful on the last drive after he sucked the entire game?
Adding my own "blame game" list, somewhat in order:
1. KOC. I'm not saying he is a bad coach. But I am sorely disappointed that three weeks in he has not designed a game plan to take advantage of Dobbs' strengths. There is no RPO. Very few roll-outs. No designed QB runs. Teams have the book on Dobbs and we have not adjusted. The final play calling series was brutal.
2. Josh Dobbs. Four picks, could/should have been more. A few more WTF moments, including another grounding penalty. He ran the ball twice, I believe -- sliding the first time to turn an 8-yard gain into a 4-yard gain and running out of bounds the second time.
3. Jordan Addison. Dude had a brutal game. I'm not sure if he caught the bomb on the first play of the game or not, but he did nothing to sell it (and did not have the strength to take away the doubt). One of Dobbs interceptions probably his best throw of the night that goes through Addison's hands, conks him on the helmet and leads to a pick. Should have made the catch on the long ball late in the game. Yes, Dobbs should have put the ball more in bounds, but he threw it before he knew the defender fell (and btw that was obvious illegal contact) -- Addison got himself turned around and thus could not get two feet in bounds. Upper tier WRs make that catch.
4. Ryan Wright. Dude has sucked all year -- don't know what happened to this guy (he has 6 touchbacks already this season, a couple of shanks and one only punt downed inside the 10). After the failed last series we had the chance to pin Chicago deep and really let the Flores defense feast. Instead, Wright punts the ball 20 some yards out of bounds at the 22 yard line. Imagine if the Bears had to start that drive inside their own 10? of 5?
5. Brian Flores. I hesitate a bit on this one because he generally called a great game and the defense held tough and got two crucial turnovers. But, it's a bit like when your offense scores 40 points but pisses down its leg on a potential game winning drive -- what matters most is when you need it most. Facing the task of holding the Bears one time to win the game, he failed. Frustratingly, he failed in a manner that has repeated itself this year -- suddenly going conservative with the game on the line. We didn't stop the run or the pass. We let their #1 receiver run wide open in the middle of the field for the backbreaking play while giving Fields forever to throw the ball.
Some kudos -- Josh Mettelus played a great game; Danielle Hunter was a beast; DJ Wonnum showed up big; Sheldon Day played really well.__PRESENT__PRESENT
@"1VikesFan" said:@"purplefaithful" said: So if I get this right....The QB throws 4 int's, is off on 85% of his throws all night, the coach limits his passing cause the guy is clearly in over his head..
So this is the coaches fault?
Agree, 7 turnovers in the last two losses and a QB that looks completely lost. Yet somehow KOC's coaching is where so many want to place the blame. How could he trust Dobbs to be successful on the last drive after he sucked the entire game?
Isn't the lack of trust in Dobbs an indictment on KOC's game plan and the lack of in game adjustments? These last two games he has tried to force Dobbs to play his system when he is not suited to that. When it was playground football in the first two games, Dobbs was able to make things happen. Square peg in a round hole comes to mind the last two weeks.
I don't know how the PFF grades shake out, but I'm sick of our offensive line being stalemated at the line of scrimmage, allowing penetration or not opening holes in the run game. Yes Mattison sucks, but it's routine to see our backs getting hit at or behind the line and this dates back to last season with Cook. Josh Oliver, our big offseason signing that was supposed to be a key cog in the run game, hasn't mattered. We are 29th in the league in average rush yards per game and I think we have 1 touchdown by the running back 12 games in to the season. We have to figure out how to be better at running the football next season.
@"supafreak84" said: I don't know how the PFF grades shake out, but I'm sick of our offensive line being stalemated at the line of scrimmage, allowing penetration or not opening holes in the run game. Yes Mattison sucks, but it's routine to see our backs getting hit at or behind the line and this dates back to last season with Cook. Josh Oliver, our big offseason signing that was supposed to be a key cog in the run game, hasn't mattered. We are 29th in the league in average rush yards per game and I think we have 1 touchdown by the running back 12 games in to the season. We have to figure out how to be better at running the football next season.Yeah Oliver and Ham feel both redundant and unnecessary in this offense, but not every signing is going to work out.
@"pattersaur" said:We have an out on his contract after this season with a dead cap hit of a little under 6 million. Be interesting to see what they do. These multi tight end sets and power looks have produced very little when it comes to effectively running the football.@"supafreak84" said: I don't know how the PFF grades shake out, but I'm sick of our offensive line being stalemated at the line of scrimmage, allowing penetration or not opening holes in the run game. Yes Mattison sucks, but it's routine to see our backs getting hit at or behind the line and this dates back to last season with Cook. Josh Oliver, our big offseason signing that was supposed to be a key cog in the run game, hasn't mattered. We are 29th in the league in average rush yards per game and I think we have 1 touchdown by the running back 12 games in to the season. We have to figure out how to be better at running the football next season. Yeah Oliver and Ham feel both redundant and unnecessary in this offense, but not every signing is going to work out.
@"mgobluevikes" said: I question why this team was built with no running game? Is that on KOC or Kwesi? If you have no balance on offense you are hamstrung. If you have no balance on offense, and your QB is shitty, you're done.and if you cant run the ball in the playoffs, why are you even there?
@"1VikesFan" said:@"purplefaithful" said: So if I get this right....The QB throws 4 int's, is off on 85% of his throws all night, the coach limits his passing cause the guy is clearly in over his head..
So this is the coaches fault?
Agree, 7 turnovers in the last two losses and a QB that looks completely lost. Yet somehow KOC's coaching is where so many want to place the blame. How could he trust Dobbs to be successful on the last drive after he sucked the entire game?
Rather than argue about KOC's in-game decisions (which I think are highly questionable at times), I would just say what I've been saying here for several weeks: Dobbs is a known commodity and a turnover machine. And the Vikings, and certainly KOC, do not possess some football pixie dust that will turn him into something more than exactly what he is.Now as a backup who has to come in and manage a couple of games, he's fine. He's a decent backup. An asset even. But he's not starter material. And he can't be made into Kirk Junior, standing in the pocket taking hits while delivering darts no matter how hard KOC tries. It's not Dobbs' game or strength.
So a good coach would call a game that plays to Dobbs strengths. Rollouts, moving pockets, qb runs. And I'll go a step further: a good coach whose QB1 went down would have a plan. That plan appeared to be giving Jaren Hall a shot. Which I endorse as a forward-thinking move for an organization that never seems to plan much past the current moment's obsession with bottom-end playoff appearances.
That same good coach when faced with Hall's injury, would get what he could out of the QB3 they just acquired - and he gets credit for a very good job there in Atlanta.
But that same good coach, being paid millions and surrounded by smart football people with the best data money can buy, would realize what that QB3 is and isn't, and not decide to ditch the plan and fiddle fuck around turning QB3 and his seven year history of riding NFL pine into the rocky, discombobulated experiment we've witnessed in the last two losses.
I know it's hard to make a long term choice when the spectre of another first round playoff embarrassment is looming out there like a stripper who just needs a few more bucks in the g-string to *really* give you what you came for, but sticking to the plan with Hall was the right move, and adhering to a fantasy about Dobbs was the wrong one. And I saw this all coming as clear as day and no one is paying me millions to work for the team and I still use Excel 2007 on my crusty old laptop.
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