Daniel Jones gets a new deal

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Wetlander" said: Is Daniel Jones a QB you can "win with"?

Doesn't matter what I think, only what they think. To clarify, when I offered my "two types" theory, it was in terms of how FO's make their decisions on QBs, not whether it was right, wrong or otherwise. I'm more convinced of it now than ever...especially after Kwesi made his "threshold" comment about Cousins. 

Right.  But does that mean people can't disagree with them and think this was a bad contract? 

Absolutely not!  B) Wha?? Of course you can disagree with it.

I just don't think NFL decision makers think like fans do. I don't think they wring hands over whether a QB is "good," "great" or "elite," top 10, 12, etc. I think they think in terms of is he a QB we can win with (and worthy of market value), or is he someone we need to replace? 

Clearly the Giants feel DJ belongs in the 1st group. Do I agree? Not that it matters, but I don't know. He played a lot better this year. His arrow is pointing up. He's only 25, got ideal size, a good arm and he's very mobile, rushing for 70 yards against us in the playoff game. I'd kinda maybe want to see where he could go with a couple NFL-level receivers. 

@"Vikergirl" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"Vikergirl" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"Vikergirl" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"1VikesFan" said: Donatell deserves a cut of this contract. Jones was barely average when not playing the Vikes in 2022.

Came here to say that.  Donatell made Jones a rich man.

All the missed tackles and blown coverages helped Jones get that bag too.

How do we know if they were blown coverages or just _onatell's "design"?

It's not all on him. Players are part of the equation, they don't get a pass 

Sorry, but yeah, that scheme was all on him.  Players don't get a pass, but the opposing offense sure did.

The scheme sucked no doubt but there are still personnel issues as well 

@"greediron" said:

How can we tell?  The scheme put them so far from the action we couldn't get a read on them. Not saying we don't need more youth and speed, but if I was a player, I wouldn't want to be judged by last years tape.

@"medaille" said:

@"greediron" said:

How can we tell?  The scheme put them so far from the action we couldn't get a read on them. Not saying we don't need more youth and speed, but if I was a player, I wouldn't want to be judged by last years tape.

We've needed more talent for several years, but I do agree that we shouldn't judge players on last year alone.

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"greediron" said:

How can we tell?  The scheme put them so far from the action we couldn't get a read on them. Not saying we don't need more youth and speed, but if I was a player, I wouldn't want to be judged by last years tape.

We've needed more talent for several years, but I do agree that we shouldn't judge players on last year alone.

Our DB room has been missing top end talent since Rhodes and Waynes got paid elsewhere.    I know people were down on Waynes, but with those two we had some top defenses for several years.  Since their departure, the defense has struggled.

But to the point of this conversation, who knows if anyone is talented.  The scheme was to basically play soft and not defend much of anything.  Like the old cover 2 where you kept everything in front of you and made the teams work their way down the field.  Only cover 2 had players close enough to make the tackle.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"greediron" said:

How can we tell?  The scheme put them so far from the action we couldn't get a read on them. Not saying we don't need more youth and speed, but if I was a player, I wouldn't want to be judged by last years tape.

We've needed more talent for several years, but I do agree that we shouldn't judge players on last year alone.

Our DB room has been missing top end talent since Rhodes and Waynes got paid elsewhere.    I know people were down on Waynes, but with those two we had some top defenses for several years.  Since their departure, the defense has struggled.

But to the point of this conversation, who knows if anyone is talented.  The scheme was to basically play soft and not defend much of anything.  Like the old cover 2 where you kept everything in front of you and made the teams work their way down the field.  Only cover 2 had players close enough to make the tackle.

but the year before the zimmer apologists said the defenses sharp decline was because he was forced to work with garbage on that side of the ball,  Zim was playing the CBs off the LOS as well 2 years ago.

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"greediron" said:

How can we tell?  The scheme put them so far from the action we couldn't get a read on them. Not saying we don't need more youth and speed, but if I was a player, I wouldn't want to be judged by last years tape.

We've needed more talent for several years, but I do agree that we shouldn't judge players on last year alone.

Our DB room has been missing top end talent since Rhodes and Waynes got paid elsewhere.    I know people were down on Waynes, but with those two we had some top defenses for several years.  Since their departure, the defense has struggled.

But to the point of this conversation, who knows if anyone is talented.  The scheme was to basically play soft and not defend much of anything.  Like the old cover 2 where you kept everything in front of you and made the teams work their way down the field.  Only cover 2 had players close enough to make the tackle.

but the year before the zimmer apologists said the defenses sharp decline was because he was forced to work with garbage on that side of the ball,  Zim was playing the CBs off the LOS as well 2 years ago.

Zimmer apologist?  The defense did decline when we lost any semblance of DBs.  Zimmer had the defense playing at a level we haven't seen since.

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"greediron" said:

How can we tell?  The scheme put them so far from the action we couldn't get a read on them. Not saying we don't need more youth and speed, but if I was a player, I wouldn't want to be judged by last years tape.

We've needed more talent for several years, but I do agree that we shouldn't judge players on last year alone.

Our DB room has been missing top end talent since Rhodes and Waynes got paid elsewhere.    I know people were down on Waynes, but with those two we had some top defenses for several years.  Since their departure, the defense has struggled.

But to the point of this conversation, who knows if anyone is talented.  The scheme was to basically play soft and not defend much of anything.  Like the old cover 2 where you kept everything in front of you and made the teams work their way down the field.  Only cover 2 had players close enough to make the tackle.

but the year before the zimmer apologists said the defenses sharp decline was because he was forced to work with garbage on that side of the ball,  Zim was playing the CBs off the LOS as well 2 years ago.

Zimmer apologist?  The defense did decline when we lost any semblance of DBs.  Zimmer had the defense playing at a level we haven't seen since.

yes,  the people that say that he was given a raw deal when he was cut, because he wasnt given quality players to work with on D,  well that was only 2 years ago, now with those same DBs the D once again sucks,  but now its a scheme thing.   I think its been a lack of talent all along,  both in the interior DL as well as at LB and DB,  top to bottom our D has gone from a lineup of studs to a couple studs and a bunch of guys either past their primes, or just flat out likely dont belong at the positions they play or the maybe even as starters and reserves in the league.

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"greediron" said:

How can we tell?  The scheme put them so far from the action we couldn't get a read on them. Not saying we don't need more youth and speed, but if I was a player, I wouldn't want to be judged by last years tape.

We've needed more talent for several years, but I do agree that we shouldn't judge players on last year alone.

Our DB room has been missing top end talent since Rhodes and Waynes got paid elsewhere.    I know people were down on Waynes, but with those two we had some top defenses for several years.  Since their departure, the defense has struggled.

But to the point of this conversation, who knows if anyone is talented.  The scheme was to basically play soft and not defend much of anything.  Like the old cover 2 where you kept everything in front of you and made the teams work their way down the field.  Only cover 2 had players close enough to make the tackle.

but the year before the zimmer apologists said the defenses sharp decline was because he was forced to work with garbage on that side of the ball,  Zim was playing the CBs off the LOS as well 2 years ago.

Zimmer apologist?  The defense did decline when we lost any semblance of DBs.  Zimmer had the defense playing at a level we haven't seen since.

yes,  the people that say that he was given a raw deal when he was cut, because he wasnt given quality players to work with on D,  well that was only 2 years ago, now with those same DBs the D once again sucks,  but now its a scheme thing.   I think its been a lack of talent all along,  both in the interior DL as well as at LB and DB,  top to bottom our D has gone from a lineup of studs to a couple studs and a bunch of guys either past their primes, or just flat out likely dont belong at the positions they play or the maybe even as starters and reserves in the league.

I don't see many saying he got a raw deal at the end.  I think he got dealt a rough hand multiple seasons, but he built his house and he had to live with the results.

He was responsible for many of those defensive players he had, so no excuses.  But when he had good players, he had damn good defenses.  It was only bad in the last 2 years when his DB room was rookies and cheap castoffs.  Not sure what the point of your last sentence is, but yeah, our team is lacking talent on D right now.  Kwesi, Rick and Zim are responsible for that.

Love, Daniel…  :p 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"greediron" said:

How can we tell?  The scheme put them so far from the action we couldn't get a read on them. Not saying we don't need more youth and speed, but if I was a player, I wouldn't want to be judged by last years tape.

We've needed more talent for several years, but I do agree that we shouldn't judge players on last year alone.

Our DB room has been missing top end talent since Rhodes and Waynes got paid elsewhere.    I know people were down on Waynes, but with those two we had some top defenses for several years.  Since their departure, the defense has struggled.

But to the point of this conversation, who knows if anyone is talented.  The scheme was to basically play soft and not defend much of anything.  Like the old cover 2 where you kept everything in front of you and made the teams work their way down the field.  Only cover 2 had players close enough to make the tackle.

but the year before the zimmer apologists said the defenses sharp decline was because he was forced to work with garbage on that side of the ball,  Zim was playing the CBs off the LOS as well 2 years ago.

Zimmer apologist?  The defense did decline when we lost any semblance of DBs.  Zimmer had the defense playing at a level we haven't seen since.

yes,  the people that say that he was given a raw deal when he was cut, because he wasnt given quality players to work with on D,  well that was only 2 years ago, now with those same DBs the D once again sucks,  but now its a scheme thing.   I think its been a lack of talent all along,  both in the interior DL as well as at LB and DB,  top to bottom our D has gone from a lineup of studs to a couple studs and a bunch of guys either past their primes, or just flat out likely dont belong at the positions they play or the maybe even as starters and reserves in the league.

I don't see many saying he got a raw deal at the end.  I think he got dealt a rough hand multiple seasons, but he built his house and he had to live with the results.

He was responsible for many of those defensive players he had, so no excuses.  But when he had good players, he had damn good defenses.  It was only bad in the last 2 years when his DB room was rookies and cheap castoffs.  Not sure what the point of your last sentence is, but yeah, our team is lacking talent on D right now.  Kwesi, Rick and Zim are responsible for that.

I am saying there were some that said the defensive issues werent on Zim,  but then said Ed had to go because the sucked,  personally I think the league has passed them both by,  however then we get down to cutting players and its said that some of them should go because they were to old, slow, etc,  but they were playing in a shitty scheme... so what is it?  and if its all of the above,  this D has more woes than could ever be fixed in one offseason so why the tortuous long rebuild behind a 35 year old QB, his money would be better applied over these next 2 years to bring in younger talent at harder to draft positions or what ever we need to do to come out of this thing as a SB contender.

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"greediron" said:

How can we tell?  The scheme put them so far from the action we couldn't get a read on them. Not saying we don't need more youth and speed, but if I was a player, I wouldn't want to be judged by last years tape.

We've needed more talent for several years, but I do agree that we shouldn't judge players on last year alone.

Our DB room has been missing top end talent since Rhodes and Waynes got paid elsewhere.    I know people were down on Waynes, but with those two we had some top defenses for several years.  Since their departure, the defense has struggled.

But to the point of this conversation, who knows if anyone is talented.  The scheme was to basically play soft and not defend much of anything.  Like the old cover 2 where you kept everything in front of you and made the teams work their way down the field.  Only cover 2 had players close enough to make the tackle.

but the year before the zimmer apologists said the defenses sharp decline was because he was forced to work with garbage on that side of the ball,  Zim was playing the CBs off the LOS as well 2 years ago.

Zimmer apologist?  The defense did decline when we lost any semblance of DBs.  Zimmer had the defense playing at a level we haven't seen since.

yes,  the people that say that he was given a raw deal when he was cut, because he wasnt given quality players to work with on D,  well that was only 2 years ago, now with those same DBs the D once again sucks,  but now its a scheme thing.   I think its been a lack of talent all along,  both in the interior DL as well as at LB and DB,  top to bottom our D has gone from a lineup of studs to a couple studs and a bunch of guys either past their primes, or just flat out likely dont belong at the positions they play or the maybe even as starters and reserves in the league.

I don't see many saying he got a raw deal at the end.  I think he got dealt a rough hand multiple seasons, but he built his house and he had to live with the results.

He was responsible for many of those defensive players he had, so no excuses.  But when he had good players, he had damn good defenses.  It was only bad in the last 2 years when his DB room was rookies and cheap castoffs.  Not sure what the point of your last sentence is, but yeah, our team is lacking talent on D right now.  Kwesi, Rick and Zim are responsible for that.

I am saying there were some that said the defensive issues werent on Zim,  but then said Ed had to go because the sucked,  personally I think the league has passed them both by,  however then we get down to cutting players and its said that some of them should go because they were to old, slow, etc,  but they were playing in a shitty scheme... so what is it?  and if its all of the above,  this D has more woes than could ever be fixed in one offseason so why the tortuous long rebuild behind a 35 year old QB, his money would be better applied over these next 2 years to bring in younger talent at harder to draft positions or what ever we need to do to come out of this thing as a SB contender.

Ed and Zim.  Not on the same field.  Ed has never done anything of note, other than make Jones a rich QB.  Zim has invented new schemes, been copied, been called a great defensive mind by great QBs.

In other words Zim innovated on D, Ed couldn't even spell innovate.  

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

Ed and Zim.  Not on the same field.  Ed has never done anything of note, other than make Jones a rich QB.  Zim has invented new schemes, been copied, been called a great defensive mind by great QBs.

In other words Zim innovated on D, Ed couldn't even spell innovate.  

its the NFL... Not For Long,  Zim was good when he had all good players,  when his talent dropped his D didnt work,  not that hard to get creative when half your D is probowl level players though. 

@"greediron" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"greediron" said:

Ed and Zim.  Not on the same field.  Ed has never done anything of note, other than make Jones a rich QB.  Zim has invented new schemes, been copied, been called a great defensive mind by great QBs.

In other words Zim innovated on D, Ed couldn't even spell innovate.  

its the NFL... Not For Long,  Zim was good when he had all good players,  when his talent dropped his D didnt work,  not that hard to get creative when half your D is probowl level players though. 

Well Ed couldn't.

And there may be a slight chance that some of those players were pro-bowlers because of the design and coaching.  I have it on good sources that Barr was overrated and not worth the money.  But now he is the reason Zim was successful.  Waynes sucked while he was here, but got paid big money elsewhere, but Zim should have been able to field a top D with rookies and hasbeens in the back end.

Pick a lane and stick with it cuz you are all over the road here.