The case for WR in the first...
The Vikings pick just outside the top 10 so should have some pretty good options. I think WR should be a strong consideration.
The case for WR at 12:
1. The premium positions in today's NFL are QB, WR, OT, Edge, and CB. This is a terrible QB class so I am crossing out QB at 12. We are set at OT. That leaves WR, Edge, and CB. Arguably, our biggest need is at CB but we did sign a couple of CBs in FA. We also signed ZaDarius Smith and we are getting Hunter back. We have added nothing at WR.
2. What positions are getting paid now in the NFL? QB, of course, but I have already nixed this QB class at 12. And WR. Thielen is still very good but he could well be gone after this year. And at his age he is struggling to get through a full season. I don't have much faith in ISM or KJ to be a top WR2.
3. In a couple of years Jefferson will demand at least $30M/year. Cousins will be gone. We will need another top receiver, preferably one on a rookie deal.
4. There is talent in this WR class worthy of going in the top 10: Wilson, Williams, and Olave. Someone can try to talk me into London. I know he is seen as WR1 in this class but I don't see it. He catches everything but he's never open. Does that translate to success in the NFL? Is he Keyshawn? Brandon Marshall?
The case against WR at 12:
1. Yes this is a strong WR class. That means there will be some very good players at 46.
2. Every WR class has some stars in it. There is nothing special about this class. (Maybe, but next year we will likely need to draft a QB in the first. So we will not have this opportunity in next year's draft.)
3. Smith and Hunter come with big injury concerns. The Vikings lucked out with Hunter in the 3rd. That will not happen again. Everyone is looking for pass rushers. If we want a top Edge, we will need to draft him now. And we are paper thin at CB. (We drafted 2 DEs last year. Robinson never played. Give them a chance. It should be WR and CB, or CB and WR in this draft.)
4. The offense is fine. The defense has sucked for 2 years now. If Stingley or one of the top Edge rushers are available, take one of them and leave WR for later. (But this FA we have added to the defense and to IOL. We do not have the cap space to add WR talent in FA. So draft one.)
If Wilson, Williams, Olave, Stingley, and Jermain Johnson are all available at 12, who should he Vikings take? I would be disappointed with Johnson and would love any of the rest.
@"AGRforever" said:@"JimmyinSD" said: I think I heard somebody earlier today say that 8 of the top 12 teams have a big need at CB, kinda helps narrow the options right there.I've accepted that neither Sauce or Stingley will be available when we pick.
Sauce is 100% gone before our pick in my mind. Stingley...I could see a team before us being worried about his health which causes them to pick a different one like McDuffie or Booth
@"Hawkvike25" said:@"AGRforever" said:@"JimmyinSD" said: I think I heard somebody earlier today say that 8 of the top 12 teams have a big need at CB, kinda helps narrow the options right there.I've accepted that neither Sauce or Stingley will be available when we pick.
Sauce is 100% gone before our pick in my mind. Stingley...I could see a team before us being worried about his health which causes them to pick a different one like McDuffie or Booth
and then I see some other team, knowing the Vikings are likely in on Sauce or Stingley, jumping ahead of us for Stingley if he fell. I just dont see the top 2 corners being in play at 12.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Hawkvike25" said:@"AGRforever" said:@"JimmyinSD" said: I think I heard somebody earlier today say that 8 of the top 12 teams have a big need at CB, kinda helps narrow the options right there.I've accepted that neither Sauce or Stingley will be available when we pick.
Sauce is 100% gone before our pick in my mind. Stingley...I could see a team before us being worried about his health which causes them to pick a different one like McDuffie or Booth
and then I see some other team, knowing the Vikings are likely in on Sauce or Stingley, jumping ahead of us for Stingley if he fell. I just dont see the top 2 corners being in play at 12.
Agreed....Sauce should be the first corner. Stingley may go first or second for the position depending on Medical...Only way I see him in a Vikings uniform is if there are still questions on him. In which case we could pass too.Then its just a matter of availability and ranking of remaining DL.
Only way I see em going S at 12 is if there is a precipitous drop out of top 10 for Hamilton. I just dont see him getting past the Gmen.
Be interesting to see what they do if London or Wilson is still sitting there.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Hawkvike25" said:@"AGRforever" said:@"JimmyinSD" said: I think I heard somebody earlier today say that 8 of the top 12 teams have a big need at CB, kinda helps narrow the options right there.I've accepted that neither Sauce or Stingley will be available when we pick.
Sauce is 100% gone before our pick in my mind. Stingley...I could see a team before us being worried about his health which causes them to pick a different one like McDuffie or Booth
and then I see some other team, knowing the Vikings are likely in on Sauce or Stingley, jumping ahead of us for Stingley if he fell. I just dont see the top 2 corners being in play at 12.
Certainly could happen, but when is the last time a team traded up that early to draft a corner? I'll bet it has been quite some time
We should learn a lot more about Stingley at his pro day this week. I suspect he will knock it out of the park and run in the 4.3s. If his medicals clear and he does not come off as a head case in his interviews, he likely will be gone by the time we pick.
I like McDuffie a lot. The guy is an excellent college CB. But will he be exposed because of his size (short arms) at the next level? Also, it's a bit underwhelming to know you got the third best player at his position when picking 12th.
Unfortunately, I think Wilson will be gone. Hopefully, Olave or Williams is available. Then get a CB in the second.
I struggle with the idea of drafting a 3rd or
even 4th WR in the first who is probably going to contribute 400
yards a season the next couple of seasons when we have so much need elsewhere.
If you have access to a guy who is clearly heads and
shoulders above all the other talent available, sure you should take him, but
at that point you’re probably just pushing Thielen off the team in a year and
ending up with similar production. We’re
starting 2 OLBs that are coming off injury plagued seasons. How many of our secondary is starting caliber? How confident do we feel that scheme/coaching
is going to make the OLine less of a weakness?
I think everyone else assumes Smith Jr. is going to take the starting
spot and running with it. I’m less
confident on that.
@"JimmyinSD" said:Only if you think he can be a really good interior pass rusher. If it's just as a run stopper, I don't think he is worth a 12. Get Noah Elliss with one of our 3 6th-round picks.I am kinda hoping for the Davis at this point.
@"medaille" said: I struggle with the idea of drafting a 3rd or even 4th WR in the first who is probably going to contribute 400 yards a season the next couple of seasons when we have so much need elsewhere.If you have access to a guy who is clearly heads and
shoulders above all the other talent available, sure you should take him, but
at that point you’re probably just pushing Thielen off the team in a year and
ending up with similar production. We’re
starting 2 OLBs that are coming off injury plagued seasons. How many of our secondary is starting caliber? How confident do we feel that scheme/coaching
is going to make the OLine less of a weakness?
I think everyone else assumes Smith Jr. is going to take the starting
spot and running with it. I’m less
confident on that.
Valid points. But the WRs I'm thinking of have the capacity for a lot more than 400 yards even as a rookie. I think Jefferson and Chase have changed the thinking on rookie WRs. (Remember, even Jefferson did not start from day 1. Neither did Moss.) And this is likely the end of the road for Thielen in Minnesota. And we are taking a QB in the first next draft.
I think our moves in FA have freed us up to take a WR at 12. We have needs, but are not desperate, at CB, IOL, and Edge. Why? Because we have signed FAs at CB, IOL, and Edge. Also, we still don't know what we have in Wyatt Davis (can he play Center?) and D. Robinson. If Hutch or Thibodeaux fall to 12, then sure, take them. But they won't. Realistically, if we lost Smith and Hunter, we are screwed anyway.
For me it is WR and CB or CB and WR in the first 2 rounds. If the guys you look are not there (Sauce, Stingley, Wilson, Olave, and Williams are all gone) did someone unexpectedly fall to 12 (Hamilton)? Otherwise try to trade back. After that, I'm fine with BPA.
I can only imagine the arguments against drafting a WR in 1998. We already had Carter and Reed and some other scrubs he had the "p" word (potential).
All it will take is another injury to Thielen and we will be very thin, JJ will get doubled, and others will be exposed.
That translates to the QB having a hard time and all the criticism will follow.
This team is closer to having a great offense that an average defense.
Make the offense explosive and able to get leads in games more often than not.
That just might make the defenses job easier.
I am not pigeonholing myself into the notion that the team needs to get a CB in the first or second round. I expect the team probably will and wont be disappointed but if they did go WR it would not upset me.
I like some other corners like Alontae Taylor, Damarri Mathis, and others that probably can be had later.
Let me give you another argument to take a WR. The league has changed so much over the last ten years and swayed towards offensive minded football being dominant and the rules are all swayed towards the offense. Let me ask you all...how many elite CB's are there in the league that are thought of as truly "shut down" players? I can think of one...Jalen Ramsey. There are some other good corners, Marlon Humphrey, etc., but compare that with how many elite or true difference making WR's there are in the league. I just think corner play has been devalued to the point that you don't really need to spend a premium pick because they are all bound by the same restrictive rules. Give me a take the top off WR that turns this offense into a truly explosive unit and gives us depth in these multi WR sets KOC wants to run. I'll roll the dice on McCreary or someone like that in the second round to address corner.
I hear ya preaching bro---if Hunter and ZD Smith get after the op Qb you won't need shutdown CBs --better to add offensive ponies and let em run
@"dadevike" said:@"medaille" said: I struggle with the idea of drafting a 3rd or even 4th WR in the first who is probably going to contribute 400 yards a season the next couple of seasons when we have so much need elsewhere.If you have access to a guy who is clearly heads and
shoulders above all the other talent available, sure you should take him, but
at that point you’re probably just pushing Thielen off the team in a year and
ending up with similar production. We’re
starting 2 OLBs that are coming off injury plagued seasons. How many of our secondary is starting caliber? How confident do we feel that scheme/coaching
is going to make the OLine less of a weakness?
I think everyone else assumes Smith Jr. is going to take the starting
spot and running with it. I’m less
confident on that.
Valid points. But the WRs I'm thinking of have the capacity for a lot more than 400 yards even as a rookie. I think Jefferson and Chase have changed the thinking on rookie WRs. (Remember, even Jefferson did not start from day 1. Neither did Moss.) And this is likely the end of the road for Thielen in Minnesota. And we are taking a QB in the first next draft.I think our moves in FA have freed us up to take a WR at 12. We have needs, but are not desperate, at CB, IOL, and Edge. Why? Because we have signed FAs at CB, IOL, and Edge. Also, we still don't know what we have in Wyatt Davis (can he play Center?) and D. Robinson. If Hutch or Thibodeaux fall to 12, then sure, take them. But they won't. Realistically, if we lost Smith and Hunter, we are screwed anyway.
For me it is WR and CB or CB and WR in the first 2 rounds. If the guys you look are not there (Sauce, Stingley, Wilson, Olave, and Williams are all gone) did someone unexpectedly fall to 12 (Hamilton)? Otherwise try to trade back. After that, I'm fine with BPA.
But the WRs I'm thinking of have the capacity for a lot more than 400 yards even as a rookie - They may have the capacity, but are they going to get looks over JJ, Thielen, and Osborn? Maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of good WR's in this draft, but they would likely be, at best, tied for 3rd WR option. Is that how you want to spend your first round pick?It may play out long term. It may be more impactful if Thielen gets hurt again this year, but Patrick Peterson is here for one year again so CB makes the most sense to me. I do agree with WR in the 2nd round if a guy is there that they like
@"supafreak84" said: Let me give you another argument to take a WR. The league has changed so much over the last ten years and swayed towards offensive minded football being dominant and the rules are all swayed towards the offense. Let me ask you all...how many elite CB's are there in the league that are thought of as truly "shut down" players? I can think of one...Jalen Ramsey. There are some other good corners, Marlon Humphrey, etc., but compare that with how many elite or true difference making WR's there are in the league. I just think corner play has been devalued to the point that you don't really need to spend a premium pick because they are all bound by the same restrictive rules. Give me a take the top off WR that turns this offense into a truly explosive unit and gives us depth in these multi WR sets KOC wants to run. I'll roll the dice on McCreary or someone like that in the second round to address corner.Exactly. And this is reflected in the money they are getting. Looks like the only position getting paid more than WR is QB. That is not by accident. Until the NFL's rules change, I do not see this changing. Top flight rookie WRs can be productive from day 1. (Didn't Waddle just set the rookie record for most receptions?) And it is at least as likely that Thielen misses time this year as Hunter or Z. Smith. He is just at that age. Also, he is likely gone after this year but we will need to draft a QB in the first round next year. So now is the perfect time to get a WR in the first. There will still be some good CBs in the second, and maybe even the third, round.
@"supafreak84" said: Let me give you another argument to take a WR. The league has changed so much over the last ten years and swayed towards offensive minded football being dominant and the rules are all swayed towards the offense. Let me ask you all...how many elite CB's are there in the league that are thought of as truly "shut down" players? I can think of one...Jalen Ramsey. There are some other good corners, Marlon Humphrey, etc., but compare that with how many elite or true difference making WR's there are in the league. I just think corner play has been devalued to the point that you don't really need to spend a premium pick because they are all bound by the same restrictive rules. Give me a take the top off WR that turns this offense into a truly explosive unit and gives us depth in these multi WR sets KOC wants to run. I'll roll the dice on McCreary or someone like that in the second round to address corner.Yeah, good point. Ramsey "shut down" JJ last season to the tune of 8 catches for 116 yards. Not sure I want a WR at #12, but I trust the front office to know way more than me. Something tells me the Vikes will do well this draft. Personally, I'd like to see them grab Davis in the 1st, but I admit I don't know much. I'd just like to see a dominant D again that shuts down the run, then gets after the QB on passing downs.
@"HappyViking" said:@"supafreak84" said: Let me give you another argument to take a WR. The league has changed so much over the last ten years and swayed towards offensive minded football being dominant and the rules are all swayed towards the offense. Let me ask you all...how many elite CB's are there in the league that are thought of as truly "shut down" players? I can think of one...Jalen Ramsey. There are some other good corners, Marlon Humphrey, etc., but compare that with how many elite or true difference making WR's there are in the league. I just think corner play has been devalued to the point that you don't really need to spend a premium pick because they are all bound by the same restrictive rules. Give me a take the top off WR that turns this offense into a truly explosive unit and gives us depth in these multi WR sets KOC wants to run. I'll roll the dice on McCreary or someone like that in the second round to address corner. Yeah, good point. Ramsey "shut down" JJ last season to the tune of 8 catches for 116 yards. Not sure I want a WR at #12, but I trust the front office to know way more than me. Something tells me the Vikes will do well this draft. Personally, I'd like to see them grab Davis in the 1st, but I admit I don't know much. I'd just like to see a dominant D again that shuts down the run, then gets after the QB on passing downs.Yup, I can watch my second or third round corner watch a 7 yard out get completed right in front of him just as easily as I could watch my first round corner do the exact same thing. Corner play is no longer go out there and "stop them" it's go out there and try to "contain them" due to all the rule changes. Like you mentioned even Ramsey gets lit up in occasion now. The days of Lester Hayes are long since gone and this is an offensive dominant league now.
@"supafreak84" said:@"HappyViking" said:@"supafreak84" said: Let me give you another argument to take a WR. The league has changed so much over the last ten years and swayed towards offensive minded football being dominant and the rules are all swayed towards the offense. Let me ask you all...how many elite CB's are there in the league that are thought of as truly "shut down" players? I can think of one...Jalen Ramsey. There are some other good corners, Marlon Humphrey, etc., but compare that with how many elite or true difference making WR's there are in the league. I just think corner play has been devalued to the point that you don't really need to spend a premium pick because they are all bound by the same restrictive rules. Give me a take the top off WR that turns this offense into a truly explosive unit and gives us depth in these multi WR sets KOC wants to run. I'll roll the dice on McCreary or someone like that in the second round to address corner. Yeah, good point. Ramsey "shut down" JJ last season to the tune of 8 catches for 116 yards. Not sure I want a WR at #12, but I trust the front office to know way more than me. Something tells me the Vikes will do well this draft. Personally, I'd like to see them grab Davis in the 1st, but I admit I don't know much. I'd just like to see a dominant D again that shuts down the run, then gets after the QB on passing downs.Yup, I can watch my second or third round corner watch a 7 yard out get completed right in front of him just as easily as I could watch my first round corner do the exact same thing. Corner play is no longer go out there and "stop them" it's go out there and try to "contain them" due to all the rule changes. Like you mentioned even Ramsey gets lit up in occasion now. The days of Lester Hayes are long since gone and this is an offensive dominant league now.
I know you're not advocating this, but we cant just throw in the towel on D...Track meets pack the stands and offensive sell tix, but KAM/KOC know they aint going to any promised land with a D in the 20's or worse in pts allowed.
I got no issue prioritizing improving that side of the ball this year.
@"purplefaithful" said:@"supafreak84" said:@"HappyViking" said:@"supafreak84" said: Let me give you another argument to take a WR. The league has changed so much over the last ten years and swayed towards offensive minded football being dominant and the rules are all swayed towards the offense. Let me ask you all...how many elite CB's are there in the league that are thought of as truly "shut down" players? I can think of one...Jalen Ramsey. There are some other good corners, Marlon Humphrey, etc., but compare that with how many elite or true difference making WR's there are in the league. I just think corner play has been devalued to the point that you don't really need to spend a premium pick because they are all bound by the same restrictive rules. Give me a take the top off WR that turns this offense into a truly explosive unit and gives us depth in these multi WR sets KOC wants to run. I'll roll the dice on McCreary or someone like that in the second round to address corner. Yeah, good point. Ramsey "shut down" JJ last season to the tune of 8 catches for 116 yards. Not sure I want a WR at #12, but I trust the front office to know way more than me. Something tells me the Vikes will do well this draft. Personally, I'd like to see them grab Davis in the 1st, but I admit I don't know much. I'd just like to see a dominant D again that shuts down the run, then gets after the QB on passing downs.Yup, I can watch my second or third round corner watch a 7 yard out get completed right in front of him just as easily as I could watch my first round corner do the exact same thing. Corner play is no longer go out there and "stop them" it's go out there and try to "contain them" due to all the rule changes. Like you mentioned even Ramsey gets lit up in occasion now. The days of Lester Hayes are long since gone and this is an offensive dominant league now.
I know you're not advocating this, but we cant just throw in the towel on D...Track meets pack the stands and offensive sell tix, but KAM/KOC know they aint going to any promised land with a D in the 20's or worse in pts allowed.
I got no issue prioritizing improving that side of the ball this year.
No I'm not advocating it and think the odds are still in favor of that pick being a defensive player, just saying that it's smart to adjust how you draft based on league trends and right now the rules are all geared towards the offensive side of the ball. If I can't get Sauce or Stingley then I'd switch up strategy, not panic and grad a corner just to grab a corner. I'd wait until the second or third round to address that position. It definitely makes sense to look hard at a WR depending on how the board falls to us. Like I said, it's going to be very interesting to see how the whiz kid handles his first draft
@"Hawkvike25" said:@"dadevike" said:@"medaille" said: I struggle with the idea of drafting a 3rd or even 4th WR in the first who is probably going to contribute 400 yards a season the next couple of seasons when we have so much need elsewhere.If you have access to a guy who is clearly heads and
shoulders above all the other talent available, sure you should take him, but
at that point you’re probably just pushing Thielen off the team in a year and
ending up with similar production. We’re
starting 2 OLBs that are coming off injury plagued seasons. How many of our secondary is starting caliber? How confident do we feel that scheme/coaching
is going to make the OLine less of a weakness?
I think everyone else assumes Smith Jr. is going to take the starting
spot and running with it. I’m less
confident on that.
Valid points. But the WRs I'm thinking of have the capacity for a lot more than 400 yards even as a rookie. I think Jefferson and Chase have changed the thinking on rookie WRs. (Remember, even Jefferson did not start from day 1. Neither did Moss.) And this is likely the end of the road for Thielen in Minnesota. And we are taking a QB in the first next draft.I think our moves in FA have freed us up to take a WR at 12. We have needs, but are not desperate, at CB, IOL, and Edge. Why? Because we have signed FAs at CB, IOL, and Edge. Also, we still don't know what we have in Wyatt Davis (can he play Center?) and D. Robinson. If Hutch or Thibodeaux fall to 12, then sure, take them. But they won't. Realistically, if we lost Smith and Hunter, we are screwed anyway.
For me it is WR and CB or CB and WR in the first 2 rounds. If the guys you look are not there (Sauce, Stingley, Wilson, Olave, and Williams are all gone) did someone unexpectedly fall to 12 (Hamilton)? Otherwise try to trade back. After that, I'm fine with BPA.
But the WRs I'm thinking of have the capacity for a lot more than 400 yards even as a rookie - They may have the capacity, but are they going to get looks over JJ, Thielen, and Osborn? Maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of good WR's in this draft, but they would likely be, at best, tied for 3rd WR option. Is that how you want to spend your first round pick?It may play out long term. It may be more impactful if Thielen gets hurt again this year, but Patrick Peterson is here for one year again so CB makes the most sense to me. I do agree with WR in the 2nd round if a guy is there that they like
I can definitely get behind drafting a WR at #12, but I do think that ISJ will be the 3rd or 4th receiving option this season based on how Tyler Higbee has been used by the LAR.
@"Knucklehead" said:@"Hawkvike25" said:@"dadevike" said:@"medaille" said: I struggle with the idea of drafting a 3rd or even 4th WR in the first who is probably going to contribute 400 yards a season the next couple of seasons when we have so much need elsewhere.If you have access to a guy who is clearly heads and
shoulders above all the other talent available, sure you should take him, but
at that point you’re probably just pushing Thielen off the team in a year and
ending up with similar production. We’re
starting 2 OLBs that are coming off injury plagued seasons. How many of our secondary is starting caliber? How confident do we feel that scheme/coaching
is going to make the OLine less of a weakness?
I think everyone else assumes Smith Jr. is going to take the starting
spot and running with it. I’m less
confident on that.
Valid points. But the WRs I'm thinking of have the capacity for a lot more than 400 yards even as a rookie. I think Jefferson and Chase have changed the thinking on rookie WRs. (Remember, even Jefferson did not start from day 1. Neither did Moss.) And this is likely the end of the road for Thielen in Minnesota. And we are taking a QB in the first next draft.I think our moves in FA have freed us up to take a WR at 12. We have needs, but are not desperate, at CB, IOL, and Edge. Why? Because we have signed FAs at CB, IOL, and Edge. Also, we still don't know what we have in Wyatt Davis (can he play Center?) and D. Robinson. If Hutch or Thibodeaux fall to 12, then sure, take them. But they won't. Realistically, if we lost Smith and Hunter, we are screwed anyway.
For me it is WR and CB or CB and WR in the first 2 rounds. If the guys you look are not there (Sauce, Stingley, Wilson, Olave, and Williams are all gone) did someone unexpectedly fall to 12 (Hamilton)? Otherwise try to trade back. After that, I'm fine with BPA.
But the WRs I'm thinking of have the capacity for a lot more than 400 yards even as a rookie - They may have the capacity, but are they going to get looks over JJ, Thielen, and Osborn? Maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of good WR's in this draft, but they would likely be, at best, tied for 3rd WR option. Is that how you want to spend your first round pick?It may play out long term. It may be more impactful if Thielen gets hurt again this year, but Patrick Peterson is here for one year again so CB makes the most sense to me. I do agree with WR in the 2nd round if a guy is there that they like
I can definitely get behind drafting a WR at #12, but I do think that ISJ will be the 3rd or 4th receiving option this season based on how Tyler Higbee has been used by the LAR.
He certainly could be and that's my point. Long Term, it may work out quite well. Short Term, I dont know how much of an impact a WR would be this year whereas I think a CB would be a significant contributor this upcoming season. All depends on how the chips fall I suppose
I think it would be hard to pass on Stingley (assuming he's healthy). But we are all counting on the re-appearance of 2019 Stingley. If Stingley and Wilson are both there at 12 the only way I consider trading out of that spot is if the compensation includes a first this year and a first next year. Otherwise, I am taking one of those two. And I am leaning towards Wilson.
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