Was Mike Zimmer a giant clown?

He was in the circus, but this dbag was the ringmaster:

Signs of dysfunction were apparent early on. Several sources said Meyer stepped into the job as if he had all the answers, even though he had never coached in the NFL.
Meyer said he conducted a six-month deep dive on the NFL that included interviews with his former Florida and Ohio State players as well as a study of the salary cap. But multiple sources said Meyer was unfamiliar with star players around the league, including 49ers receiver Deebo Samuel, Seahawks safety Jamal Adams and Rams defensive tackle Aaron Donald, a three-time NFL defensive player of the year.
“Who’s this 99 guy on the Rams?” Meyer asked one staffer during the season, according to a source. “I’m hearing he might be a problem for us.”

Friends and family over the years have labeled Meyer a control freak and perfectionist, and as he climbed the ranks he developed a reputation as a tough, obsessive win-at-all-costs coach who, by his own admission, was “addicted” to victory. But according to coaches, players and staff in Jacksonville, Meyer crossed the line from tough and demanding to belittling, demeaning and leading by fear.
“The most toxic environment I’ve ever been a part of,” a veteran member of the football operations staff said. “By far. Not even close.”
Receiver D.J. Chark, who signed with the Lions last week after spending the first four years of his career with the Jaguars, said Meyer routinely threatened to fire coaches and cut players. “He feels like threats are what motivates,” Chark said. “I know he would come up to us and tell us if the receivers weren’t doing good, he wasn’t going to fire us, he was going to fire our coach. He would usually say that when the coach was around.”
Kicker Josh Lambo said last year Meyer kicked him during warmups — a fact Meyer’s lawyers reportedly conceded to Rick Stroud, the reporter who broke the story for the Tampa Bay Times. Lambo believed Meyer’s kick was an act of “intimidation,” a theme echoed by several people in the organization. One player described the year with Meyer as “mentally exhausting.”

Urban Meyer burst into a room full of players at the Jaguars’ facility. He was furious.
One of his players had missed an assignment during a preseason game, leading to a busted play. Meyer was enraged when it happened. A day later, he was still fuming. If the mistake ever happened again, Meyer warned, he would cut every single one of them.
“And do you know what would happen if I cut you guys?” Meyer said, according to four people in the room. “You couldn’t get a job paying more than $15 an hour.”
The implication that his players were capable of little more than playing football left some angry, others offended. “I lost all respect for him after that,” a veteran player in the room said.

@"pattersaur" said: In your opinion was Zim a terrible head coach?

So far, it’s looking like the roster will be pretty familiar next season. If that’s the case then the only real big change is with the coaching. So, do you believe that Zim was so bad that he was holding this roster back? I honestly don’t know but that seems to be what the Wilfs believe and what they’re selling to the fanbase.

For the sake of the team and this fan’s sanity, I hope they are right and KOC can elevate this squad in ways Zim could not. But there was a time (8 months ago?) where most of the fanbase supported Zimmer. I’m just not sure I buy that he was the sole problem and now that he’s been eradicated everything will be daisies.

But, back to the OP:

I've said many times that the sum of the parts was less than the whole. Situational football routinely was out of his grasp. Clock management was a joke. His practice tactics moronic. Couldnt outcoach a Cooper Rush lead McCarthy team. Letting the Lions march down field the last minute in Detroit was the last straw for me. He lost the team and the game passed him by. 

Zimmer had his issues no doubt but Meyer is a next level douchebag. He is not made for the NFL and working with adults, his ego is off the charts. Zimmer didn't want anything to do with offense and I think that is where coaching is going to make a difference. KOC is going to collaborate with both offense and defense. 

Yeah, he turned into a clown for sure.

There may not be much player turn over on O, but there will be on D.

Couple that with significant culture and schematic changes? It will be a very different Viking team taking the field in September vs y.ago. 

Will it be a better one? Who the hell knows. 

The extent of the toxicity in the bldg and mediocrity achieved on the field screams this flush of the Vikings was 1-2 years too late.

Mike was a big part of the problem imo. 

IMO he had some talent as a DC but was not suited temperamentally or emotionally to be a HC, and those issues manifested within a couple years of his hire in 2016. 

It also appears from reading tea leaves that over time Rick Spielman lost some organizational control and ceded it to Mike's passive-aggressive persona.    That devolved into the bad situation over the last few years, news of which leaked out after the firings.   It also fomented the organizational lurch back to football-by-committee, after the original TOA/committee approach gave way to the strong GM/HC combo which devolved into corrupt power mongering it seems.

Just basically a guy in over his head, whose tendency to mouth off may have hurt his chances to get back into the league as a DC, but it's very much a blow-who-you-know league when it comes to staff hiring so he's not without a chance despite the shortcomings.  Question is has the game passed him by?  He's pushing 70 at this point.   

@"Vikergirl" said: Zimmer had his issues no doubt but Meyer is a next level douchebag. He is not made for the NFL and working with adults, his ego is off the charts. Zimmer didn't want anything to do with offense and I think that is where coaching is going to make a difference. KOC is going to collaborate with both offense and defense. 

I'll also include how Zim felt about coaching STs.  I wouldn't doubt the ex-Viking kickers are in therapy 3-4 times per week because of him.  He simply was a decent DC put into a HC position without taking charge of the entire team.  What kind of HC would go 3 seasons without ever having any type of meeting with his highly paid starting QB?

It wasn't all coaching and Zimmer wasn't a bad coach. He had his shortcomings and the Wilf's think they can upgrade. I hope they are right. If riding the Cousins train for another year or two turns out no better than the last couple years, the blame will land squarely on the Wilf's themselves for making poor decisions.

Zimmer relied too much on a defense that was no longer there...and his game/time management sucked...

The last two seasons, definitely. Prior to that, I think he was overrated looking back on it. Consistently had poor clock management, outside of the lucky Minneapolis Miracle Game and the Kirk deep throw to Thielen you can make the case that we always looked unprepared while in the playoffs, and he's way too loyal to guys in this business.

Just comes full circle.  The questions swirled on Zimmer before coming to Minnesota about why he had been passed over for a head coaching gig for so long. The common answer was that his previous interviews with other franchises came off as harsh/blunt, and too defensive minded. I guess we shouldn't be surprised that in the end, we got the full Zimmer treatment.  

@"purplefaithful" said: There may not be much player turn over on O, but there will be on D.

Couple that with significant culture and schematic changes? It will be a very different Viking team taking the field in September vs y.ago. 

Will it be a better one? Who the hell knows. 

The extent of the toxicity in the bldg and mediocrity achieved on the field screams this flush of the Vikings was 1-2 years too late.

Mike was a big part of the problem imo. 

3 years too late and the evidence just started to pile up the season after our Philly debacle and yet it took 3 more years.  All those internal rumblings, OC/coaching turnover, player discontent, game management were all excused by many on here until after the fact.  Now they say if they only knew then what they know now.  Many of these same Zimmer supporters bashed some of us who had a much earlier read on Zimmer and his pettiness.   Oh well, some posters only want to see or delve into critical thinking on "positive" only of their team and I can understand that because it is really a release from everyday life and entertainment.  

The current Kirk debate is very reminiscent of the Zimmer debate the last few years - IMO.  The Zimmer drumbeat started slowly 3 years ago with only one or two posters and before the start of last year I think when I did polls it was still about 70% support of Zimmer, then the season began and pretty everyone jumped off the Zimmer longship by midseason.  Now Zimmer is the antichrist and by just getting rid of him the ship is righted.  The few took the typical crap from the in-crowd (majority or at least most frequent posters) who brushed aside new OC after new OC and the writing that was all on the wall for years.  

I guess I just find it somewhat ironic that the crew that blindly (didn't want to see) supported Zimmer almost to the end now think that by just getting rid of him is going to make everything
better :).  Thier is a decent overlap of these posters.  

As someone who wanted Zimmer gone years ago I do support the hiring of Kevin OC.  I wanted an Off minded HC.  But I expect some real growing pains well into the season.  KOC hasn't even called plays before which reminds me of someone from our recent past :).   It would have been great to bring in a new fresh OC mind as a HC 2 or 3 years ago when our key starters were mostly under 30 but that is not the case now.  This is a roster with a lot of holes and some aging/injury concerns.  Once again, I find myself in the minority who does not expect or think that this current team (D,O,ST,C) is playoff material.  We are still somewhat early in FA and pre-draft but right now I see mediocracy and wishful thinking being embraced one again.  Hope springs eternal and maybe KOC is the next Bill Walsh from day 1.   

@"minny65" said:

@"purplefaithful" said: There may not be much player turn over on O, but there will be on D.

Couple that with significant culture and schematic changes? It will be a very different Viking team taking the field in September vs y.ago. 

Will it be a better one? Who the hell knows. 

The extent of the toxicity in the bldg and mediocrity achieved on the field screams this flush of the Vikings was 1-2 years too late.

Mike was a big part of the problem imo. 

3 years too late and the evidence just started to pile up the season after our Philly debacle and yet it took 3 more years.  All those internal rumblings, OC/coaching turnover, player discontent, game management were all excused by many on here until after the fact.  Now they say if they only knew then what they know now.  Many of these same Zimmer supporters bashed some of us who had a much earlier read on Zimmer and his pettiness.   Oh well, some posters only want to see or delve into critical thinking on "positive" only of their team and I can understand that because it is really a release from everyday life and entertainment.  

The current Kirk debate is very reminiscent of the Zimmer debate the last few years - IMO.  The Zimmer drumbeat started slowly 3 years ago with only one or two posters and before the start of last year I think when I did polls it was still about 70% support of Zimmer, then the season began and pretty everyone jumped off the Zimmer longship by midseason.  Now Zimmer is the antichrist and by just getting rid of him the ship is righted.  The few took the typical crap from the in-crowd (majority or at least most frequent posters) who brushed aside new OC after new OC and the writing that was all on the wall for years.  

I guess I just find it somewhat ironic that the crew that blindly (didn't want to see) supported Zimmer almost to the end now think that by just getting rid of him is going to make everything
better :).  Thier is a decent overlap of these posters.  

As someone who wanted Zimmer gone years ago I do support the hiring of Kevin OC.  I wanted an Off minded HC.  But I expect some real growing pains well into the season.  KOC hasn't even called plays before which reminds me of someone from our recent past :).   It would have been great to bring in a new fresh OC mind as a HC 2 or 3 years ago when our key starters were mostly under 30 but that is not the case now.  This is a roster with a lot of holes and some aging/injury concerns.  Once again, I find myself in the minority who does not expect or think that this current team (D,O,ST,C) is playoff material.  We are still somewhat early in FA and pre-draft but right now I see mediocracy and wishful thinking being embraced one again.  Hope springs eternal and maybe KOC is the next Bill Walsh from day 1.   

@"pattersaur" said: In your opinion was Zim a terrible head coach?

So far, it’s looking like the roster will be pretty familiar next season. If that’s the case then the only real big change is with the coaching. So, do you believe that Zim was so bad that he was holding this roster back? I honestly don’t know but that seems to be what the Wilfs believe and what they’re selling to the fanbase.

For the sake of the team and this fan’s sanity, I hope they are right and KOC can elevate this squad in ways Zim could not. But there was a time (8 months ago?) where most of the fanbase supported Zimmer. I’m just not sure I buy that he was the sole problem and now that he’s been eradicated everything will be daisies.

Zim was a good candidate and was a pretty good head coach, just not championship caliber. 

His inability to adapt was his downfall, including not improving his in game management and not connecting with a newer generation of players. 

72-56 was a pretty decent run. 

My thoughts on Zimmer etc.

• I have often compared Zimmer to Childress -- a coach who waited a long time to become HC and was stubbornly insistent on how to do things and failed to properly adjust to the talent on the roster.  At this point, I am of the opinion that if someone is passed over a number of times to be HC, there is a good reason for it.  It is like the old bachelor, there is a reason they are a bachelor and those traits become more imbedded as you grow older.  That is why I would not support hiring Bieniemy going forward.
• Clearly, the Zimmer -- Spielman relationship broke down over the past few years.  This is on Zimmer, Spielman and the Wilfs.  This is part of the problem of a hands off ownership -- you miss the drama growing within your organization.
• I recall when Zimmer first took the job and the emphasis on hiring coaches who could teach.  I largely think that was just an empty promise at this point (hopefully not with the new regime).  They developed some players but as time went on, Zimmer seemed to not emphasize developing players and his loyalty to the players connected to Zimmer's best years took clear precedence.  I also think over the past couple of years Zimmer wanted Spielman draft picks to fail.  I feel like Zimmer was doing things to get Spielman fired and Spielman was trying to get Zimmer fired.  Again, the Wilfs should have seen this.
• Zimmer's general disinterest with the offense with the occasional fits about the offense was not worthy of a head coach.  I also think he wanted a run first offense because a successful run first offense leads to better defensive statistics.
• I also think Zimmer's approach to player relations is from a (now) bygone era and does not fit with a "participation trophy" generation.
• I think as the team (and especially the defense) spiraled downhill, all the worse traits of Zimmer emerged.  You really see someone's true character in times of turmoil.

@"VikingOracle" said: My thoughts on Zimmer etc.

• I have often compared Zimmer to Childress -- a coach who waited a long time to become HC and was stubbornly insistent on how to do things and failed to properly adjust to the talent on the roster.  At this point, I am of the opinion that if someone is passed over a number of times to be HC, there is a good reason for it.  It is like the old bachelor, there is a reason they are a bachelor and those traits become more imbedded as you grow older.  That is why I would not support hiring Bieniemy going forward.
• Clearly, the Zimmer -- Spielman relationship broke down over the past few years.  This is on Zimmer, Spielman and the Wilfs.  This is part of the problem of a hands off ownership -- you miss the drama growing within your organization.
• I recall when Zimmer first took the job and the emphasis on hiring coaches who could teach.  I largely think that was just an empty promise at this point (hopefully not with the new regime).  They developed some players but as time went on, Zimmer seemed to not emphasize developing players and his loyalty to the players connected to Zimmer's best years took clear precedence.  I also think over the past couple of years Zimmer wanted Spielman draft picks to fail.  I feel like Zimmer was doing things to get Spielman fired and Spielman was trying to get Zimmer fired.  Again, the Wilfs should have seen this.
• Zimmer's general disinterest with the offense with the occasional fits about the offense was not worthy of a head coach.  I also think he wanted a run first offense because a successful run first offense leads to better defensive statistics.
• I also think Zimmer's approach to player relations is from a (now) bygone era and does not fit with a "participation trophy" generation.
• I think as the team (and especially the defense) spiraled downhill, all the worse traits of Zimmer emerged.  You really see someone's true character in times of turmoil.

Could not agree more and why I was down on him for the last few years.  The evidence of all the above was pretty obvious.  

Zim was old old school. I had a former NFL player tell me Zim was an A hole. 
IMO Zim wanted to be the Alpha. This caused guys to lose heart, passion and swagger. Zim throwing away offensive coordinators and kickers was a glimpse of a bigger problem.