Say What Now?

@"VikingOracle" said:

@"savannahskol" said:

@"VikingOracle" said: What coach would want to take the Dolphins head coaching job now?  Think about it -- you're going to be heavily scrutinized over the next couple of seasons; if the paid tanking accusations are true, the Dolphins will probably lose draft picks (among other penalties), may be hard to get free agents to come to the Dolphins as long as Ross is owner and there is going to be a cloud over the entire organization.

Lol, the Dolphins.  Class-action, bro.   You're missing the bigger picture. 

Flores just tapped into something larger.  Much larger.  Even Kaep is taking a bow.  

Have you read the news/news reactions to this suit?  Google it. 

Go coach Flores!   
(and whoever his lawyers are...hit a HR on the press-release)

Yes, I decided to look at one tangible result of the "HR on the press release."  And, yes, I think systemic racism is throughout the NFL coaching system -- you need look no further than the coordinators on the Vikings last year -- if the vast majority of HCs in the NFL are white and they choose to elevate their offspring, well, that takes up opportunities for POC.

But I don't need to google the lawsuit to know that it is not all about racism.  The part of the lawsuit that is getting the most attention is the payments for losses.  That is not racist.  I am sure Ross would have been pissed at a white coach if he had made the team perform as well as Flores.

Also, keep in mind there is a chance this will all be pushed into arbitration.

Then layer on top of that that Flores is trying to do this as a class action -- who are members of that class?   Can't be all black coaches because black coaches do get hired to coach teams.   And you can't say the Rooney rule is just window dressing as Mike Tomlin proves it is not.  And what black coach will want to be part of the class -- are there any other class representatives?

Yes, look at Kaep -- he sued the NFL but then the entire litigation got really quiet.  Do you even know the result?

So, yes, I can look at the larger picture but I chose to look at the one piece of tangible damages caused by yesterday's filing.

Post rev Al (et al) meeting, The Rog agreed that they needed to take a hard look at the Rooney Rule, and diversity outcomes, uber alles!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qzdxpBjwif8

Hi Savannah:  With all due respect, I am not quite sure why you have singled me out as if I don't believe racism is part of the NFL hiring process.  I did write "And, yes, I think systemic racism is throughout the NFL coaching system...".  I am glad that civil rights leaders sat down with Goodell.  Good for them.  I am glad that a black man is thinking about purchasing the Broncos.  About time.  I don't care that they didn't talk about nepotism -- but if part of the problem is that people like to hire people that look like themselves, well, nepotism is probably the best example of that.  I am really not sure what point I made that has been diminished by the civil rights leaders meeting with Goodell -- though my original point (that the Dolphins job would not be desirable) appears to be off the mark.

My other points are still valid: (a) I believe the NFL will try to move this into arbitration.  Here is a commentary that agrees with that: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/04/arbitration-clause-could-quickly-derail-the-brian-flores-lawsuit/.  And it is discussed here also:  https://today.law.harvard.edu/brian-flores-vs-the-nfl/ (“The NFL will no doubt rely heavily upon the long line of favorable Federal Arbitration Act precedents to support its motion to compel arbitration. It has even been applied in cases involving alleged violation of plaintiffs’ civil rights.”)  (b) I also believe it is a difficult case for class certification.  It will be interesting to see whether other minority coaches/executives join the lawsuit.

Good for the civil rights leaders to stand up and demand change and to recognize that they should have stood up for Kaep.

Here is something I do know -- consider the work of Jack Dovidio and his work on aversive racism and how it easily applies to the hiring process.  I truly wish more people were familiar with Dr. Dovidio's work.

@"VikingOracle" said: Hi Savannah:  With all due respect, I am not quite sure why you have singled me out as if I don't believe racism is part of the NFL hiring process.  I did write "And, yes, I think systemic racism is throughout the NFL coaching system...". 

You wrote on page 2:  "The part of the lawsuit that is getting the most attention is the payments for losses.  That is not racist.''
& If you watch rev Al's vid above, he'll assure you that that bribery was assuredly racist. 

My other points are still valid: (a) I believe the NFL will try to move this into arbitration.  Here is a commentary that agrees with that: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/04/arbitration-clause-could-quickly-derail-the-brian-flores-lawsuit/.  And it is discussed here also:  https://today.law.harvard.edu/brian-flores-vs-the-nfl/ (“The NFL will no doubt rely heavily upon the long line of favorable Federal Arbitration Act precedents to support its motion to compel arbitration. It has even been applied in cases involving alleged violation of plaintiffs’ civil rights.”)  (b) I also believe it is a difficult case for class certification.  It will be interesting to see whether other minority coaches/executives join the lawsuit.

Wow! 
Civil Rights litigation needs to be subservient to the legal concept of arbitration?  
https://scholars.law.unlv.edu/facpub/268/

"To the contrary, in its 1991 amendments to the 1866 Act, Congress reiterated that it did not intend to allow employers to use mandatory arbitration clauses to deprive their employees of a judicial forum within which to challenge allegedly discriminatory acts.''

Good for the civil rights leaders to stand up and demand change and to recognize that they should have stood up for Kaep.

LOL!  Now we agree!  

The NFL is systemically racist.  Tear down any (white, Southern) statues, tear down the Hall of Fame!

Brian Flores sued the @NFL because the NFL lacks black head coaches, but a law firm representing him has no black employees. Hmmm… pic.twitter.com/DHq8wX0GvY

— Emmanuel Acho (@EmmanuelAcho) February 8, 2022

@"savannahskol" said:

Wow!  Civil Rights litigation needs to be subservient to the legal concept of arbitration?   https://scholars.law.unlv.edu/facpub/268/

"To the contrary, in its 1991 amendments to the 1866 Act, Congress reiterated that it did not intend to allow employers to use mandatory arbitration clauses to deprive their employees of a judicial forum within which to challenge allegedly discriminatory acts.''

@"VikingOracle" said:

@"savannahskol" said:

Wow!  Civil Rights litigation needs to be subservient to the legal concept of arbitration?   https://scholars.law.unlv.edu/facpub/268/

"To the contrary, in its 1991 amendments to the 1866 Act, Congress reiterated that it did not intend to allow employers to use mandatory arbitration clauses to deprive their employees of a judicial forum within which to challenge allegedly discriminatory acts.''

The law student who wrote this article.....
 

@"savannahskol" said:

@"VikingOracle" said:

@"savannahskol" said:

Wow!  Civil Rights litigation needs to be subservient to the legal concept of arbitration?   https://scholars.law.unlv.edu/facpub/268/

"To the contrary, in its 1991 amendments to the 1866 Act, Congress reiterated that it did not intend to allow employers to use mandatory arbitration clauses to deprive their employees of a judicial forum within which to challenge allegedly discriminatory acts.''

The law student who wrote this article.....
 

 Nope!
The author was a Harvard educated law professor at the publication of this article. 
https://law.unlv.edu/sites/default/files/faculty/resumes/Sternlight_12-21.pdf

I guess I just dont get it. If the team owners and GM's are so driven by racism, why are there so many non-white players that are getting paid 10's of millions of dollars every year?  If racism is more important than wins, you would think the teams would be about 80 percent white.
I think pretty much every nfl team is going to hire what they feel is the best candidate to be their head coach. More wins equates to more money, more prestige.
Also, nepotism is not racism. It is a form of favorism, but its not about race. As a side note: I think zimmer making his son the co- DC probably hurt his kids career. Everyone in the league knew that Dre had earned that job.

@"wiviking" said:

I guess I just dont get it. If the team owners and GM's are so driven by racism, why are there so many non-white players that are getting paid 10's of millions of dollars every year?  If racism is more important than wins, you would think the teams would be about 80 percent white. I think pretty much every nfl team is going to hire what they feel is the best candidate to be their head coach. More wins equates to more money, more prestige. Also, nepotism is not racism. It is a form of favorism, but its not about race. As a side note: I think zimmer making his son the co- DC probably hurt his kids career. Everyone in the league knew that Dre had earned that job.

@"StickyBun" said:

@"wiviking" said:

I guess I just dont get it. If the team owners and GM's are so driven by racism, why are there so many non-white players that are getting paid 10's of millions of dollars every year?  If racism is more important than wins, you would think the teams would be about 80 percent white. I think pretty much every nfl team is going to hire what they feel is the best candidate to be their head coach. More wins equates to more money, more prestige. Also, nepotism is not racism. It is a form of favorism, but its not about race. As a side note: I think zimmer making his son the co- DC probably hurt his kids career. Everyone in the league knew that Dre had earned that job.

You'd think. But then you here this and know better:

@"wiviking" said:

I guess I just dont get it. If the team owners and GM's are so driven by racism, why are there so many non-white players that are getting paid 10's of millions of dollars every year?  If racism is more important than wins, you would think the teams would be about 80 percent white. I think pretty much every nfl team is going to hire what they feel is the best candidate to be their head coach. More wins equates to more money, more prestige. Also, nepotism is not racism. It is a form of favorism, but its not about race. As a side note: I think zimmer making his son the co- DC probably hurt his kids career. Everyone in the league knew that Dre had earned that job.

The assumption that non-white persons are only qualified for certain, lower-level positions is the very definition of discrimination. 

Also, I don't think the problem is that "owners and GMs are driven by racism." It's more that they're driven by stereotype and preconception.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"wiviking" said:

I guess I just dont get it. If the team owners and GM's are so driven by racism, why are there so many non-white players that are getting paid 10's of millions of dollars every year?  If racism is more important than wins, you would think the teams would be about 80 percent white. I think pretty much every nfl team is going to hire what they feel is the best candidate to be their head coach. More wins equates to more money, more prestige. Also, nepotism is not racism. It is a form of favorism, but its not about race. As a side note: I think zimmer making his son the co- DC probably hurt his kids career. Everyone in the league knew that Dre had earned that job.

Oh my. Isn't this a little like claiming your school district does not discriminate because your janitorial and support staff are 80% black... despite the fact that all of your teachers and administrators are white?

The assumption that non-white persons are only qualified for certain, lower-level positions is the very definition of discrimination. 

Also, I don't think the problem is that "owners and GMs are driven by racism." It's more that they're driven by stereotype and preconception.

@"wiviking" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"wiviking" said:

I guess I just dont get it. If the team owners and GM's are so driven by racism, why are there so many non-white players that are getting paid 10's of millions of dollars every year?  If racism is more important than wins, you would think the teams would be about 80 percent white. I think pretty much every nfl team is going to hire what they feel is the best candidate to be their head coach. More wins equates to more money, more prestige. Also, nepotism is not racism. It is a form of favorism, but its not about race. As a side note: I think zimmer making his son the co- DC probably hurt his kids career. Everyone in the league knew that Dre had earned that job.

Oh my. Isn't this a little like claiming your school district does not discriminate because your janitorial and support staff are 80% black... despite the fact that all of your teachers and administrators are white?

The assumption that non-white persons are only qualified for certain, lower-level positions is the very definition of discrimination. 

Also, I don't think the problem is that "owners and GMs are driven by racism." It's more that they're driven by stereotype and preconception.

At no point have I implied that. Or is it inferred? You are equating an entry level job with a job that pays upwards of 30 million dollars annually. Who make more money, the coach or the players? Hard to call that lower level.

NFL is all about money. Team owners are going to hire the best coach they feel they can get.This isn't the 80's. 

Screaming racism is the soup of the day. You don't have to be able to prove it, because just the accusation has half the people assuming its true. Social media is the courtroom.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"wiviking" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"wiviking" said:

I guess I just dont get it. If the team owners and GM's are so driven by racism, why are there so many non-white players that are getting paid 10's of millions of dollars every year?  If racism is more important than wins, you would think the teams would be about 80 percent white. I think pretty much every nfl team is going to hire what they feel is the best candidate to be their head coach. More wins equates to more money, more prestige. Also, nepotism is not racism. It is a form of favorism, but its not about race. As a side note: I think zimmer making his son the co- DC probably hurt his kids career. Everyone in the league knew that Dre had earned that job.

Oh my. Isn't this a little like claiming your school district does not discriminate because your janitorial and support staff are 80% black... despite the fact that all of your teachers and administrators are white?

The assumption that non-white persons are only qualified for certain, lower-level positions is the very definition of discrimination. 

Also, I don't think the problem is that "owners and GMs are driven by racism." It's more that they're driven by stereotype and preconception.

At no point have I implied that. Or is it inferred? You are equating an entry level job with a job that pays upwards of 30 million dollars annually. Who make more money, the coach or the players? Hard to call that lower level.

NFL is all about money. Team owners are going to hire the best coach they feel they can get.This isn't the 80's. 

Screaming racism is the soup of the day. You don't have to be able to prove it, because just the accusation has half the people assuming its true. Social media is the courtroom.

Money is irrelevant to this issue. And the NFL shouldn't stop trying to be an equal opportunity employer just because a few Gomers on social media are tired of hearing about it. 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"wiviking" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"wiviking" said:

I guess I just dont get it. If the team owners and GM's are so driven by racism, why are there so many non-white players that are getting paid 10's of millions of dollars every year?  If racism is more important than wins, you would think the teams would be about 80 percent white. I think pretty much every nfl team is going to hire what they feel is the best candidate to be their head coach. More wins equates to more money, more prestige. Also, nepotism is not racism. It is a form of favorism, but its not about race. As a side note: I think zimmer making his son the co- DC probably hurt his kids career. Everyone in the league knew that Dre had earned that job.

Oh my. Isn't this a little like claiming your school district does not discriminate because your janitorial and support staff are 80% black... despite the fact that all of your teachers and administrators are white?

The assumption that non-white persons are only qualified for certain, lower-level positions is the very definition of discrimination. 

Also, I don't think the problem is that "owners and GMs are driven by racism." It's more that they're driven by stereotype and preconception.

At no point have I implied that. Or is it inferred? You are equating an entry level job with a job that pays upwards of 30 million dollars annually. Who make more money, the coach or the players? Hard to call that lower level.

NFL is all about money. Team owners are going to hire the best coach they feel they can get.This isn't the 80's. 

Screaming racism is the soup of the day. You don't have to be able to prove it, because just the accusation has half the people assuming its true. Social media is the courtroom.

Money is irrelevant to this issue. And the NFL shouldn't stop trying to be an equal opportunity employer just because a few Gomers on social media are tired of hearing about it. 

is it really equal opportunity when there are incentives to hire one race over another?  

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"wiviking" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"wiviking" said:

I guess I just dont get it. If the team owners and GM's are so driven by racism, why are there so many non-white players that are getting paid 10's of millions of dollars every year?  If racism is more important than wins, you would think the teams would be about 80 percent white. I think pretty much every nfl team is going to hire what they feel is the best candidate to be their head coach. More wins equates to more money, more prestige. Also, nepotism is not racism. It is a form of favorism, but its not about race. As a side note: I think zimmer making his son the co- DC probably hurt his kids career. Everyone in the league knew that Dre had earned that job.

Oh my. Isn't this a little like claiming your school district does not discriminate because your janitorial and support staff are 80% black... despite the fact that all of your teachers and administrators are white?

The assumption that non-white persons are only qualified for certain, lower-level positions is the very definition of discrimination. 

Also, I don't think the problem is that "owners and GMs are driven by racism." It's more that they're driven by stereotype and preconception.

At no point have I implied that. Or is it inferred? You are equating an entry level job with a job that pays upwards of 30 million dollars annually. Who make more money, the coach or the players? Hard to call that lower level.

NFL is all about money. Team owners are going to hire the best coach they feel they can get.This isn't the 80's. 

Screaming racism is the soup of the day. You don't have to be able to prove it, because just the accusation has half the people assuming its true. Social media is the courtroom.

Money is irrelevant to this issue. And the NFL shouldn't stop trying to be an equal opportunity employer just because a few Gomers on social media are tired of hearing about it. 

is it really equal opportunity when there are incentives to hire one race over another?  

If you're starting from a position of inequality, you should try to discourage the kind of personal biases and preconceptions that led you there. 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

is it really equal opportunity when there are incentives to hire one race over another?  

If you're starting from a position of inequality, you should try to discourage the kind of personal biases and preconceptions that led you there. 

IMO you cant change the way people feel and think through legislation and gimmicks.  you can however increase anger by shoving this shit in peoples faces all the time, especially when so many are quick to slap the racist term on anybody that doesnt fall in line with the narrative.  I still dont buy that all this race race race shit the last decade or so has improved anything in terms of equality or removing bias.  corporations can play woke,  because people buy it,  but its rarely genuine and if its nothing more than a marketing ploy, what has it really accomplished besides create more anger from those that are tired of hearing about it? 

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"wiviking" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"wiviking" said:

I guess I just dont get it. If the team owners and GM's are so driven by racism, why are there so many non-white players that are getting paid 10's of millions of dollars every year?  If racism is more important than wins, you would think the teams would be about 80 percent white. I think pretty much every nfl team is going to hire what they feel is the best candidate to be their head coach. More wins equates to more money, more prestige. Also, nepotism is not racism. It is a form of favorism, but its not about race. As a side note: I think zimmer making his son the co- DC probably hurt his kids career. Everyone in the league knew that Dre had earned that job.

Oh my. Isn't this a little like claiming your school district does not discriminate because your janitorial and support staff are 80% black... despite the fact that all of your teachers and administrators are white?

The assumption that non-white persons are only qualified for certain, lower-level positions is the very definition of discrimination. 

Also, I don't think the problem is that "owners and GMs are driven by racism." It's more that they're driven by stereotype and preconception.

At no point have I implied that. Or is it inferred? You are equating an entry level job with a job that pays upwards of 30 million dollars annually. Who make more money, the coach or the players? Hard to call that lower level.

NFL is all about money. Team owners are going to hire the best coach they feel they can get.This isn't the 80's. 

Screaming racism is the soup of the day. You don't have to be able to prove it, because just the accusation has half the people assuming its true. Social media is the courtroom.

Money is irrelevant to this issue. And the NFL shouldn't stop trying to be an equal opportunity employer just because a few Gomers on social media are tired of hearing about it. 

is it really equal opportunity when there are incentives to hire one race over another?  

If you're starting from a position of inequality, you should try to discourage the kind of personal biases and preconceptions that led you there. 

IMO you cant change the way people feel and think through legislation and gimmicks.  you can however increase anger by shoving this shit in peoples faces all the time, especially when so many are quick to slap the racist term on anybody that doesnt fall in line with the narrative.  I still dont buy that all this race race race shit the last decade or so has improved anything in terms of equality or removing bias.  corporations can play woke,  because people buy it,  but its rarely genuine and if its nothing more than a marketing ploy, what has it really accomplished besides create more anger from those that are tired of hearing about it?