Cousins & Zim combo needs to end

@"StickyBun" said:

@"pattersaur" said: Agree with OP. Kirk and Zim both need to go. Neither is terrible, but nor is either good enough to overcome the other’s weaknesses. 

Whatever the Vikings are doing, it’s not working. Time to try something else. 

Kirk isn't going anywhere. There's nothing in the pipeline, especially for a new coaching staff. 

@"JoDakota" said: Your right pattersaur, he doesn't fit on this team......that is why Zimmer has to go. Like it or nt, with his contract, kirk isn't going anywhere. Zimmer and Kubiac are what is holding back this team. Run, Run, Pass then Punt doen't crack it in this league. The modern day NFL is more like 65-70% passing, and the Vikes are closer to 50%, which makes playing defense against us very predictable.

Zimmer used to be a defensive master, but the game has passd him by. He is too stubborn to adjust, so he is always the frustrated guy in his pressers statig things like "This team is better than this, these players are better than this". What he doesn't realize is that we all agree with him, they are better than their record, so that means a coaching change might be in order.

This piqued my interest. There's one team that throws over 65% of the time, TB. Top 5 is rounded out by Jets, Steelers, LV, and Jax. All on the outside looking in.

Bottom 5, Eagles, Colts, Titans, Saints, and 49ers. 4 of the 5 in the playoffs.

Vikings are at 19 overall with 57.72% pass plays.

Teamrankings.com

I don't think either Zimmer or Cousins is really the answer.  I think Zimmer's got better odds of winning a SB than Cousins does.  Zimmer has had a lot of bad luck, but he's also made a bunch of bad decisions.  I think that without a doubt, we'd be in the playoffs this year, if he had chosen quality coordinators rather than rolling the dice with inexperienced coordinators.  I think he's really failed to embrace the totality of head coaching, and has instead focused too much on the defensive side of the ball over his tenure.  I think Zimmer/Spielman really screwed up when they abandoned the attempt to draft an elite QB.  Over Zimmer's tenure we've drafted Bridgewater and Mond with high draft picks, when we should have drafted 2 more.  An elite QB changes everything, and we made no real attempt to get one after Bridgewater until it was too late.  I think Zimmer will always struggle as his OC's will keep getting stolen from under him.  I think his best shot is to get two veteran coordinators and let them do the heavy lifting, and he moves into a true HC role.  Ideally the OC would be a good OC, but a failed HC who has lost their HC aspirations, such that they would stick around.  I think he's run out of runway here though and probably needs a fresh start.

Cousins, I think, will need a lot more of a perfect situation to win a SB.  I think he will need to be paired with an offensive guru HC, like Reid or McVay that stacks the offensive roster with stars.  I don't think it's really going to work out well to pair him with that next McVay, who isn't actually the next McVay.  I think McVay is an outlier, as a guy who just came in and coached like a veteran HC.  Like pairing Cousins with a Stefanski is probably more likely to end up at .500 ball than it is to get over the hump.  I think there's just always going to be 3-4 games a year where Cousins just doesn't really show up to play.  I think Cousins at $25M a year makes a lot more sense than Cousins at $35M a year plus.  I don't think paying a midlevel QB top tier money is ever a strategy that makes sense.  Obviously that's not the market dynamics of the NFL, but at some point teams will have to figure out an alternate plan.

I don't think it's really that hard to get out of Cousins contract.  I think it's just a matter of how much of his salary you have to eat.  I think there's a lot of teams that would take him as a one year rental to let their drafted QB season for a year.  I think there's a fair number of teams that think they're smart enough to get him to a SB and would renegotiate with Cousins.  I think eating $20M of his 2022 contract should be enough to get out of his contract, as the other team would be looking at a 1 year deal for $25M, which isn't that bad.

16 teams in 1st or 2nd place. 

Below is a definitive list of those teams that have given up more points than the Vikings:

1. LA. Chargers

End of list.

But, getting rid of Cousins would fix that.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

The defensive slide has been the most disappointing thing to me. Tomlinson has been a bust as our big free agent signing. I expected the second coming of the Williams wall and it's been far from it. Pierce has played ok when healthy. I thought Eric Kendricks with 660 pounds in front of him that nobody would be able to run against us. 

That and our struggles at cornerback have been killer. After all the resources spent at the cornerback position amd Zimmers alleged mastery of the position, it's been brutal to watch 

@"JustinTime18™" said: 16 teams in 1st or 2nd place. 

Below is a definitive list of those teams that have given up more points than the Vikings:

1. LA. Chargers

End of list.

But, getting rid of Cousins would fix that.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

If you are trying to prioritize why things suck, and who should be the target of your anger, then your mindset makes sense.  The defense is worse than Cousins this year and last, end of story.

But that isn't the mindset you need for building a SB winner.  You have limited cap space and limited draft picks, and there's always problems.  Cousins is mediocre, and by definition there will always be parts of the team that are worse than he is.  We've spent the last several years building an offensive team, while our defense has aged and we didn't restock it with draft picks.  Now we're going to have to start paying more attention to the defense again.  Thielen and Cook will probably start to become shells of their current selves within a couple years.  You have to ask the question if it's reasonably likely to build a SB contender around Cousins or if there's always going to be too many holes.

In my mind, you just need to find an elite QB as fast as possible.  Cousins isn't elite.  You can keep him or get rid of him in the short term, but the plan needs to include finding a better QB than him.  Maybe you'll get lucky with him and everything will be perfect around him.  It's not impossible, but it's not a good plan if he's your only option.

@"JustinTime18™" said:

CBS Sports HQ

@CBSSportsHQ

·Sep 7

List of QBs to throw for 25+ TDs in 6 consecutive seasons in NFL history:

- Peyton Manning
- Tom Brady
- Drew Brees
- Philip Rivers
- KIRK COUSINS*

*The longest ACTIVE streak in the league

Mediocre.

Hokay.

You have your opinion.  It's not an uncommon opinion.  That said, it's also not close to unanimous.   Probably half the Washington fans and half the Viking fans wouldn't be too bothered with him not being on their team.  Looking at various QB Power Rankings, he's almost always in the 10-20 range.

Looking at the stat you posted.  25 TDs isn't top TD caliber.  It's 10-15 caliber on any given season in the modern time period.  What it really says is that he's consistently available and doesn't get injured and is in the top half of the league.

Do whatever mental gymnastics you have to, but Cousins isn't the fucking problem. 

And, just to restate, I am in no way a Kirk Cousins fan. I think he's a complete nutjob. But, to lay the blame at his feet as so many do is ludicrous.

@"JustinTime18™" said:

Dustin Baker

@DustBaker

·4m

Vikings Win Percentage, When Winning Turnover Battle in Gm, Franchise History:

1961-2020 = .792

2021 = .285

Damn, we really need to move on from Cousins!

The defense and coaching stinks. Practically no one is disputing that. That fact doesn’t absolve Kirk. It’s 2 different arguments.

Since our big win vs GB when Kirk played great, the Vikings have been in a playoff push and Kirk’s TD:INT ratio is 9:5. Seems pretty mediocre to me. I guess we’ll see what happens at Lambeau this week. Hopefully he’ll rekindle the magic. 

@"JustinTime18™" said: Do whatever mental gymnastics you have to, but Cousins isn't the fucking problem. 

And, just to restate, I am in no way a Kirk Cousins fan. I think he's a complete nutjob. But, to lay the blame at his feet as so many do is ludicrous.

I also don't blame Cousins.  He's just not good enough to build a super bowl caliber team around, without an incredible amount of luck or a drop in how much he costs.

Most importantly, it is not either Zimmer or Cousins.

At this point, jettisoning Zimmer is a no brainer.  Just consider this list:

• Ant Exum
• Kendall James
• Jabari Price
• Trae Waynes
• Mac Alexander
• Jayron Kearse
• Jack Tocho
• Mike Hughes
• Marcus Epps
• Kris Boyd
• Jeff Gladney
• Cameron Danzler
• Harrison Hand
• Josh Metellus
• Brian Cole
• Camryn Bynum.

16 DBs drafted over 8 drafts by the cornerback whisperer.

As for Cousins, teams can win SBs with average QBs and Cousins is better than average.  But he is also a stat collector -- lots of empty stats.  He is also a salary cap consumer.   But I think that what bothers me the most is I don't see him as a charismatic leader.  I may be wrong, but I don't see the team rallying behind him.  I don't see him lifting everyone up.

JMHO.
 

@"VikingOracle" said: Most importantly, it is not either Zimmer or Cousins.

As for Cousins, teams can win SBs with average QBs and Cousins is better than average.  But he is also a stat collector -- lots of empty stats.  He is also a salary cap consumer.   But I think that what bothers me the most is I don't see him as a charismatic leader.  I may be wrong, but I don't see the team rallying behind him.  I don't see him lifting everyone up.

JMHO.
 

Could not agree more.

I do not want us to try for salary Cap relief next year with Cousins and offer an extension which I think is most likely especially if we keep Spelly.  I want a trade of Cousins or stick with the one year 45 million hit and rip that band aide off so we can start a fresh rebuild which is today's NFL can be a 2 or even a 1 year process if you can nail it.  

@"VikingOracle" said: Most importantly, it is not either Zimmer or Cousins.

At this point, jettisoning Zimmer is a no brainer.  Just consider this list:

• Ant Exum
• Kendall James
• Jabari Price
• Trae Waynes
• Mac Alexander
• Jayron Kearse
• Jack Tocho
• Mike Hughes
• Marcus Epps
• Kris Boyd
• Jeff Gladney
• Cameron Danzler
• Harrison Hand
• Josh Metellus
• Brian Cole
• Camryn Bynum.

16 DBs drafted over 8 drafts by the cornerback whisperer.

As for Cousins, teams can win SBs with average QBs and Cousins is better than average.  But he is also a stat collector -- lots of empty stats.  He is also a salary cap consumer.   But I think that what bothers me the most is I don't see him as a charismatic leader.  I may be wrong, but I don't see the team rallying behind him.  I don't see him lifting everyone up.

JMHO.
 

Agree about Cousins. His lack of fire, swagger, leadership has always been his biggest flaw. But every QB in the NFL is flawed in some way. The question for the Vikings is...are they ready to sacrifice his positives (arm, accuracy, durability) for a little bit of fire? Don't know the answer to that. 

Regarding your DB list, things like that always make me cringe. You can compile a list of all the DBs taken the last 8 years by every NFL team and it's going to look like ass. I'd bet half the players on the list will be out of the NFL.

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"VikingOracle" said: Most importantly, it is not either Zimmer or Cousins.

At this point, jettisoning Zimmer is a no brainer.  Just consider this list:

• Ant Exum
• Kendall James
• Jabari Price
• Trae Waynes
• Mac Alexander
• Jayron Kearse
• Jack Tocho
• Mike Hughes
• Marcus Epps
• Kris Boyd
• Jeff Gladney
• Cameron Danzler
• Harrison Hand
• Josh Metellus
• Brian Cole
• Camryn Bynum.

16 DBs drafted over 8 drafts by the cornerback whisperer.

Regarding your DB list, things like that always make me cringe. You can compile a list of all the DBs taken the last 8 years by every NFL team and it's going to look like ass. I'd bet half the players on the list will be out of the NFL.

@"medaille" said:

@"JustinTime18™" said:

CBS Sports HQ

@CBSSportsHQ

·Sep 7

List of QBs to throw for 25+ TDs in 6 consecutive seasons in NFL history:

- Peyton Manning
- Tom Brady
- Drew Brees
- Philip Rivers
- KIRK COUSINS*

*The longest ACTIVE streak in the league

Mediocre.

Hokay.

You have your opinion.  It's not an uncommon opinion.  That said, it's also not close to unanimous.   Probably half the Washington fans and half the Viking fans wouldn't be too bothered with him not being on their team.  Looking at various QB Power Rankings, he's almost always in the 10-20 range.

Looking at the stat you posted.  25 TDs isn't top TD caliber.  It's 10-15 caliber on any given season in the modern time period.  What it really says is that he's consistently available and doesn't get injured and is in the top half of the league.

@"Havoc1649" said:

Half the Washington fans and half the Vikings fans have no clue what they are talking about.

Anyone saying Cousins is the problem is being irrational. The guy is currently playing with a broken freaking rib, in a true joke of an offensive scheme, yet still getting it done. I was at the game and Barr can piss off. The crowd was jacked until the same stupid play calling began. Having watched on tv prior, I recognized how poor the play calling was, but live it’s simply unbelievable. They ran the same freaking run play (or iteration of) 3 flipping times and took a loss of yards on first down every single time. That’s a crowd killer. 5 yard outs when you need more yards for the first? Check. It’s a simplistic offense run by a poor offensive coordinator. In my opinion they’d be 10X better off just allowing Cousins to call the offense.

The defensive play calling is little different. Soft zones at stupid times, little willingness to blitz either run or pass, and no answer schematically for stopping a running game that was not complicated. Zimmer doesn’t seem capable of adjusting on the fly. It’s wait until halftime while sticking with what is clearly not working. It’s maddening and it decimated the crowd. 
This team needs some better personnel, but the reason why we are loosing games is almost entirely due to poor coaching/play calling. Period. End of story.

Let’s be honest, no one rational is foolish enough to claim Cousins isn’t a good QB. We all know what the problem we have with Cousins is - his massive cap killing contract. It’s always been his huge contract. He puts us in position to win all the time. He does contribute mightily to winning big games. He nearly always does his part - except for allowing a more cap friendly contract. This off season he needs to do his part in a new contract that helps this team create room to put a more competitive team on the field. Had Spielman made the grown up decision and drafted Mac Jones like I wanted to, this would be a much easier decision to deal with. Since he ignored my emails (haha) and went LT, Cousins has to remain our guy. 

I'll say this a second time, I don't think Cousins is the problem.  He's good enough to make the playoffs sometimes.  He's just not good enough to build a super bowl caliber team around,
without an incredible amount of luck or a drop in how much he costs.  I think a fair Cousins contract that gives us a chance to win with him at QB is around $20-25M a year.  I don't think that's possible though.  The NFL vastly overpays non-elite QBs.
I do agree that most of our current problems are coaching related.  I think Zimmer screwed the pooch when he decided to go into the season with Klint, Adam and Andre as the OC/DCs.  The defense is lacking fundamentals.  Klint shows moments of good and bad.  I think there's probably not enough Zimmer to plug all the holes in his coaching staff, and he's never really been that interested in the offense anyway.

@"Havoc1649" said:

@"medaille" said:

@"JustinTime18™" said:

CBS Sports HQ

@CBSSportsHQ

·Sep 7

List of QBs to throw for 25+ TDs in 6 consecutive seasons in NFL history:

- Peyton Manning
- Tom Brady
- Drew Brees
- Philip Rivers
- KIRK COUSINS*

*The longest ACTIVE streak in the league

Mediocre.

Hokay.

You have your opinion.  It's not an uncommon opinion.  That said, it's also not close to unanimous.   Probably half the Washington fans and half the Viking fans wouldn't be too bothered with him not being on their team.  Looking at various QB Power Rankings, he's almost always in the 10-20 range.

Looking at the stat you posted.  25 TDs isn't top TD caliber.  It's 10-15 caliber on any given season in the modern time period.  What it really says is that he's consistently available and doesn't get injured and is in the top half of the league.

Half the Washington fans and half the Vikings fans have no clue what they are talking about.

Anyone saying Cousins is the problem is being irrational. The guy is currently playing with a broken freaking rib, in a true joke of an offensive scheme, yet still getting it done. I was at the game and Barr can piss off. The crowd was jacked until the same stupid play calling began. Having watched on tv prior, I recognized how poor the play calling was, but live it’s simply unbelievable. They ran the same freaking run play (or iteration of) 3 flipping times and took a loss of yards on first down every single time. That’s a crowd killer. 5 yard outs when you need more yards for the first? Check. It’s a simplistic offense run by a poor offensive coordinator. In my opinion they’d be 10X better off just allowing Cousins to call the offense.

The defensive play calling is little different. Soft zones at stupid times, little willingness to blitz either run or pass, and no answer schematically for stopping a running game that was not complicated. Zimmer doesn’t seem capable of adjusting on the fly. It’s wait until halftime while sticking with what is clearly not working. It’s maddening and it decimated the crowd. 
This team needs some better personnel, but the reason why we are loosing games is almost entirely due to poor coaching/play calling. Period. End of story.

Let’s be honest, no one rational is foolish enough to claim Cousins isn’t a good QB. We all know what the problem we have with Cousins is - his massive cap killing contract. It’s always been his huge contract. He puts us in position to win all the time. He does contribute mightily to winning big games. He nearly always does his part - except for allowing a more cap friendly contract. This off season he needs to do his part in a new contract that helps this team create room to put a more competitive team on the field. Had Spielman made the grown up decision and drafted Mac Jones like I wanted to, this would be a much easier decision to deal with. Since he ignored my emails (haha) and went LT, Cousins has to remain our guy. 

Hahahaha - Barr's comments, seriously?  He hasn't made any noise since he broke Rodger's collarbone.  He is the last dude I would expect from our team talking smack about a lack of splash from the crowd.

As for Cousins, he isn't going anywhere with his cap numbers or his stat numbers (which are really good).  Realize what you have - a very good pocket passer which requires a very good OL to give him time.  Shore up the OL (I know, for the 20th year in a row) some more to help him be the best him!  Oh, and keep drafting QB's every draft (preferably before the 6th and 7th rounds) until you hit gold.  Damn, it sounds so easy from where I am sitting (LOL).