Tom Moore Nuggets

I say keep RS. I havent had a problem with his drafts. I think he gets value out of his picks. He’s had some turds but each and every GM/team does. The question is more about whether he’s hitting on more then average. 

Theres probably better….but there is significantly worse. 

@"AGRforever" said: I say keep RS. I havent had a problem with his drafts. I think he gets value out of his picks. He’s had some turds but each and every GM/team does. The question is more about whether he’s hitting on more then average. 

Theres probably better….but there is significantly worse. 

I think there is a good chance Zimmer gets fired Friday, if the Steelers win and the Vikes pee down their leg again.
As to the talent question, there are a lot of mediocre and less than average players on this team. Should the Wilfs fire Zimmer and retain Spielman, there will be no improvement. 
Time for a new vision for what a team needs to do to win a championship. The formula and concept for this coach and the last 2 also are not getting it done.
Is it time to clean house or stay in this endless hell of perpetual mediocrity. 

im generaly positive on Speilman, but do believe should move on to new GM if we do make a coaching change. clean sweep. 

8 years or so of this combo werent bad if compared to Tice and Frazier years.  but we need to want better than that. 

we have enough talent and youth here to be attractive to top candidates. trade for Shannahan since we’re most likely going to have Cousins for the forseeable future.

@"VikingOracle" said:

@"AGRforever" said: I say keep RS. I havent had a problem with his drafts. I think he gets value out of his picks. He’s had some turds but each and every GM/team does. The question is more about whether he’s hitting on more then average. 

Theres probably better….but there is significantly worse. 

I will say the two things that makes me think about replacing RS are (1) the Harrison Smith contract and (2) the Herndon trade.

@"Wetlander" said:

@"VikingOracle" said:

@"AGRforever" said: I say keep RS. I havent had a problem with his drafts. I think he gets value out of his picks. He’s had some turds but each and every GM/team does. The question is more about whether he’s hitting on more then average. 

Theres probably better….but there is significantly worse. 

I will say the two things that makes me think about replacing RS are (1) the Harrison Smith contract and (2) the Herndon trade.

I think Spielman needs to go as well.  He has drafted pretty well most years, but that's only one part of being a GM.  The rest are trades, FA, and overall roster construction.

And let's face it, Zimmer and Spielman seemed to be in lock step early on...  they made some savvy FA signings, had some good draft picks, and the team had an identity.  It was a power running, play-action team with a strong defense.  We can blame Zimmer for the defense falling apart, but we should all be looking at Spielman too.  He went from Everson, Robison, and Hunter at DE to Hunter and...  he has done a terrible job of finding pass rushers since Hunter to replace departing players in Robison and Griffen.  We also went from Rhodes, Waynes, Munnerlyn, and Newman to Dantzler, Peterson, Alexander, and Breeland.  Big drop off at DE and CB...  which a good pass rush and CBs who can cover are two requirements of Zimmer's scheme.

Then you add in the panic trades for Bradford, Herndon, Yannick, etc. that didn't pan out and his troubles finding a solid group of OL to protect his expensive QB and his resume the past couple years is as bad as Zimmer's track record.  They go hand in hand...

I'm ready to fire Zimmer now (still love the guy, but it's time for a change) but I think a new GM to go with your next coach would be good.  Start fresh...  reach out to some HC candidates and figure out what personnel guys they have worked well in the past.  You need your GM and coach to be in lock step or you get what we've seen from the Vikings the past couple years... a young roster with older vets that doesn't have any blue chip talent at key positions.

Typical Vikings ---Fire the guy and start over the year after there was a QB friendly draft---so we'll ponder a over reach of Qb that should be working out that "what am I gonna do now that the football part of my life is over."

Current 10 longest coaching tenures.  Stating the obvious, does anything come to mind that all the 6 coaches in front of Zimmer have?  I can't find a way to get this stat, but I'd like to know the longest tenure without a super bowl, or until the first super bowl appearance. 

1. Bill Belichick (New England Patriots): January 27, 2000
2. Sean Payton (New Orleans Saints): January 18, 2006
3. Mike Tomlin (Pittsburgh Steelers): January 27, 2007
4. John Harbaugh (Baltimore Ravens): January 19, 2008
5. Pete Carroll (Seattle Seahawks): January 9, 2010
6. Andy Reid (Kansas City Chiefs): January 4, 2013
7. Mike Zimmer (Minnesota Vikings): January 15, 2014
8. Sean McDermott (Buffalo Bills): January 11, 2017
9. Sean McVay (Los Angeles Rams): January 12, 2017
10. Kyle Shanahan (San Francisco 49ers): February 6, 2017

I read this thread and just wonder why many were agaisnt firing both Zimmer and Spielman two years ago and especially last year?
Whats happening today is not new. It was pretty obvious if we dared to look but we decided to put good money on bad money one more time. Here are some mistakes we could have avoided if we fired them two years ago:

1. Ngakoe Trade
2. Cousins extention
3. Smiths extention
4. Lost draft picks 2021 ( mainly a second for Ngakou and 2022 4th fir Herndon)
5. Continuous misses on the Oline
6. Poor cap situation (mortgaging future years) that resulted in decimated roster with many holes to fill and no depth

@"mblack" said: I read this thread and just wonder why many were agaisnt firing both Zimmer and Spielman two years ago and especially last year? Whats happening today is not new. It was pretty obvious if we dared to look but we decided to put good money on bad money one more time. Here are some mistakes we could have avoided if we fired them two years ago:

1. Ngakoe Trade
2. Cousins extention
3. Smiths extention
4. Lost draft picks 2021 ( mainly a second for Ngakou and 2022 4th fir Herndon)
5. Continuous misses on the Oline
6. Poor cap situation (mortgaging future years) that resulted in decimated roster with many holes to fill and no depth

There have been a few early on the Zimmer / Rick torch and pitchfork crew but they were mostly scoffed at by the majority of the board. I think if we want to have a chance at a Superbowl, we need to find a great GM and start there. I would be looking at Buffalo, Baltimore, SF, NE, PITT,  teams that have drafted well consistently. 

Marty Schottenheimer -- 21 years as head coach without a single Super Bowl appearance.

@"Bullazin" said:

@"mblack" said: I read this thread and just wonder why many were agaisnt firing both Zimmer and Spielman two years ago and especially last year? Whats happening today is not new. It was pretty obvious if we dared to look but we decided to put good money on bad money one more time. Here are some mistakes we could have avoided if we fired them two years ago:

1. Ngakoe Trade
2. Cousins extention
3. Smiths extention
4. Lost draft picks 2021 ( mainly a second for Ngakou and 2022 4th fir Herndon)
5. Continuous misses on the Oline
6. Poor cap situation (mortgaging future years) that resulted in decimated roster with many holes to fill and no depth

I think this is the key point. Our GM hasnt been great drafting the trenches, the most important part of football. 

There have been a few early on the Zimmer / Rick torch and pitchfork crew but they were mostly scoffed at by the majority of the board. I think if we want to have a chance at a Superbowl, we need to find a great GM and start there. I would be looking at Buffalo, Baltimore, SF, NE, PITT,  teams that have drafted well consistently. 

@"mblack" said:

@"Bullazin" said:

@"mblack" said: I read this thread and just wonder why many were agaisnt firing both Zimmer and Spielman two years ago and especially last year? Whats happening today is not new. It was pretty obvious if we dared to look but we decided to put good money on bad money one more time. Here are some mistakes we could have avoided if we fired them two years ago:

1. Ngakoe Trade
2. Cousins extention
3. Smiths extention
4. Lost draft picks 2021 ( mainly a second for Ngakou and 2022 4th fir Herndon)
5. Continuous misses on the Oline
6. Poor cap situation (mortgaging future years) that resulted in decimated roster with many holes to fill and no depth

I think this is the key point. Our GM hasnt been great drafting the trenches, the most important part of football. 

There have been a few early on the Zimmer / Rick torch and pitchfork crew but they were mostly scoffed at by the majority of the board. I think if we want to have a chance at a Superbowl, we need to find a great GM and start there. I would be looking at Buffalo, Baltimore, SF, NE, PITT,  teams that have drafted well consistently. 

It was not too long ago that the Bills could not draft right. They cleaned house in 2017 hired Brandon Beane and McDermot and the rest is history.

@"Bullazin" said:

@"mblack" said:

@"Bullazin" said:

@"mblack" said: I read this thread and just wonder why many were agaisnt firing both Zimmer and Spielman two years ago and especially last year? Whats happening today is not new. It was pretty obvious if we dared to look but we decided to put good money on bad money one more time. Here are some mistakes we could have avoided if we fired them two years ago:

1. Ngakoe Trade
2. Cousins extention
3. Smiths extention
4. Lost draft picks 2021 ( mainly a second for Ngakou and 2022 4th fir Herndon)
5. Continuous misses on the Oline
6. Poor cap situation (mortgaging future years) that resulted in decimated roster with many holes to fill and no depth

I think this is the key point. Our GM hasnt been great drafting the trenches, the most important part of football. 

There have been a few early on the Zimmer / Rick torch and pitchfork crew but they were mostly scoffed at by the majority of the board. I think if we want to have a chance at a Superbowl, we need to find a great GM and start there. I would be looking at Buffalo, Baltimore, SF, NE, PITT,  teams that have drafted well consistently. 

It was not too long ago that the Bills could not draft right. They cleaned house in 2017 hired Brandon Beane and McDermot and the rest is history.

And full disclosure I was one of the scoffers up until this season. The first Detroit game and Zims conservatism early in the year broke me finally.  I just dont see us getting to the promise land with this crew in charge. Kirk can go too. Im getting too old (die hard fan since 73) to look at decent to good, I want to hoist an effing Lombardi 

@"mblack" said:

@"Bullazin" said:

@"mblack" said:

@"Bullazin" said:

@"mblack" said: I read this thread and just wonder why many were agaisnt firing both Zimmer and Spielman two years ago and especially last year? Whats happening today is not new. It was pretty obvious if we dared to look but we decided to put good money on bad money one more time. Here are some mistakes we could have avoided if we fired them two years ago:

1. Ngakoe Trade
2. Cousins extention
3. Smiths extention
4. Lost draft picks 2021 ( mainly a second for Ngakou and 2022 4th fir Herndon)
5. Continuous misses on the Oline
6. Poor cap situation (mortgaging future years) that resulted in decimated roster with many holes to fill and no depth

I think this is the key point. Our GM hasnt been great drafting the trenches, the most important part of football. 

There have been a few early on the Zimmer / Rick torch and pitchfork crew but they were mostly scoffed at by the majority of the board. I think if we want to have a chance at a Superbowl, we need to find a great GM and start there. I would be looking at Buffalo, Baltimore, SF, NE, PITT,  teams that have drafted well consistently. 

It was not too long ago that the Bills could not draft right. They cleaned house in 2017 hired Brandon Beane and McDermot and the rest is history.

And full disclosure I was one of the scoffers up until this season. The first Detroit game and Zims conservatism early in the year broke me finally.  I just dont see us getting to the promise land with this crew in charge. Kirk can go too. Im getting too old (die hard fan since 73) to look at decent to good, I want to hoist an effing Lombardi 

I dont know how you guys have stayed this loyal. I started following the Vikings in 2001 (when I moved to MN) and I am not sure how much more I can take. Your dedication very very impressive. You my friend deserve a Lombardi

@"mblack" said:

@"Bullazin" said:

@"mblack" said:

@"Bullazin" said:

@"mblack" said: I read this thread and just wonder why many were agaisnt firing both Zimmer and Spielman two years ago and especially last year? Whats happening today is not new. It was pretty obvious if we dared to look but we decided to put good money on bad money one more time. Here are some mistakes we could have avoided if we fired them two years ago:

1. Ngakoe Trade
2. Cousins extention
3. Smiths extention
4. Lost draft picks 2021 ( mainly a second for Ngakou and 2022 4th fir Herndon)
5. Continuous misses on the Oline
6. Poor cap situation (mortgaging future years) that resulted in decimated roster with many holes to fill and no depth

I think this is the key point. Our GM hasnt been great drafting the trenches, the most important part of football. 

There have been a few early on the Zimmer / Rick torch and pitchfork crew but they were mostly scoffed at by the majority of the board. I think if we want to have a chance at a Superbowl, we need to find a great GM and start there. I would be looking at Buffalo, Baltimore, SF, NE, PITT,  teams that have drafted well consistently. 

It was not too long ago that the Bills could not draft right. They cleaned house in 2017 hired Brandon Beane and McDermot and the rest is history.

And full disclosure I was one of the scoffers up until this season. The first Detroit game and Zims conservatism early in the year broke me finally.  I just dont see us getting to the promise land with this crew in charge. Kirk can go too. Im getting too old (die hard fan since 73) to look at decent to good, I want to hoist an effing Lombardi 

I dont know how you guys have stayed this loyal. I started following the Vikings in 2001 (when I moved to MN) and I am not sure how much more I can take. Your dedication very very impressive. You my friend deserve a Lombardi

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"StickyBun" said: The Vikings have the facilities, the stadium, the ownership, the roster and the fanbase to be attractive to a HC candidate. If you are going to fire Zimmer than you really should fire Spielman as well and start fresh. But I think the Wilfs like Spielman and he'll remain.

Ah yes...."starting fresh." The opium of every NFL fan. 

Well, every franchise that has improved and won a Superbowl had to start 'fresh' at some point. I mean, Zimmer has had 8 years, its not like the guy hasn't had a chance. To your point, nothing is guaranteed with a new regime and I realize that. As far as opium goes, we're all NFL drug addicts anyway.

Zimmer needs to go. And the guy who replaces him will likely want to make a few changes based on his own style of offense and/or defense.

That doesn't mean you take the NFL's 2nd youngest roster and tear it up. So you can have, what, the NFL's 1st youngest roster? 

There is one--and really only one--player the Vikings need to make a tough decision about: Kirk Cousins. So they will either trade him (possible, but depends a lot on who the HC is, what they think of Mond and the
22 QB class) or extend him (a little more likely IMO). Either way, they free up a whole helluva lot of cap space.

@"El_Padre" said: Current 10 longest coaching tenures.  Stating the obvious, does anything come to mind that all the 6 coaches in front of Zimmer have?  I can't find a way to get this stat, but I'd like to know the longest tenure without a super bowl, or until the first super bowl appearance. 

1. Bill Belichick (New England Patriots): January 27, 2000
2. Sean Payton (New Orleans Saints): January 18, 2006
3. Mike Tomlin (Pittsburgh Steelers): January 27, 2007
4. John Harbaugh (Baltimore Ravens): January 19, 2008
5. Pete Carroll (Seattle Seahawks): January 9, 2010
6. Andy Reid (Kansas City Chiefs): January 4, 2013
7. Mike Zimmer (Minnesota Vikings): January 15, 2014
8. Sean McDermott (Buffalo Bills): January 11, 2017
9. Sean McVay (Los Angeles Rams): January 12, 2017
10. Kyle Shanahan (San Francisco 49ers): February 6, 2017

Holy shit???  5 seasons is all it takes to break the top 10 in coaching?  That is absolutely crazy. 

@"AGRforever" said:

@"El_Padre" said: Current 10 longest coaching tenures.  Stating the obvious, does anything come to mind that all the 6 coaches in front of Zimmer have?  I can't find a way to get this stat, but I'd like to know the longest tenure without a super bowl, or until the first super bowl appearance. 

1. Bill Belichick (New England Patriots): January 27, 2000
2. Sean Payton (New Orleans Saints): January 18, 2006
3. Mike Tomlin (Pittsburgh Steelers): January 27, 2007
4. John Harbaugh (Baltimore Ravens): January 19, 2008
5. Pete Carroll (Seattle Seahawks): January 9, 2010
6. Andy Reid (Kansas City Chiefs): January 4, 2013
7. Mike Zimmer (Minnesota Vikings): January 15, 2014
8. Sean McDermott (Buffalo Bills): January 11, 2017
9. Sean McVay (Los Angeles Rams): January 12, 2017
10. Kyle Shanahan (San Francisco 49ers): February 6, 2017

Holy shit???  5 seasons is all it takes to break the top 10 in coaching?  That is absolutely crazy. 

You can look up each one individually on Wikipedia.

Coach - Years until first SB Appearance - Years until first SB Win
Belichick - 7 -7
Payton - 4 - 4
Tomlin - 2 - 2
Harbaugh - 5 - 5
Carroll - 8 - 8
Reid - 6 - 21
Zimmer - 7 years without SB Appearance

Another thing that would be interesting to look up is which ones got their SB with an elite QB and if it was on their rookie contract or not.

To me, Harbaugh is the only one that didn't have an elite QB for his SB win, and Reid for his first appearance.  I think Zimmer and Spielmans biggest failing is not really making any attempts to acquire an elite QB.