Vikings should be in rebuild mode come trade deadline
That's the time to unload some salaries, gain some draft picks and set the franchise back toward the light at the end of the tunnel. Reiff and Harris are two prime candidates that could gather some real attention.
Maybe they should be. I don't see any indication that is their intention, does anyone else?
@"Jor-El" said: Maybe they should be. I don't see any indication that is their intention, does anyone else?
^
They should be but I don't know what they are thinking or doing.
At this point for me, the only keepers are basically all those on rookie contracts, Kendricks, Hunter and maybe Thielen...but only because he’s a Minnesotan.
We are always only a player or two away from the Super Bowl for 43 years.
I'm sure Zimmer is not interested in this as he can start to see the writing on the wall. He'll be 65 years old before the start of next season. But its exactly what the franchise needs to do. You don't need a new HC and GM to draft the QB of the future, in fact, Minnesota drafting one this Spring makes it more attractive to potential HC candidates for 2022. Because Z ain't getting fired this year, nor is Spielman.
Here's the perfect scenario: clear some players/space before trade deadline/offseason, cut Cousins before June, sign a vet bandaid to start, draft a QB to sit and learn and fire Z and Spielman after 2021 season and bring in the next whiz kid. The table will be set with cap space and still have some talent on the team that will continue to be loaded via the draft. I like Cousins, but that experiment failed ultimately. They took a swing.
@"StickyBun" said: I'm sure Zimmer is not interested in this as he can start to see the writing on the wall. He'll be 65 years old before the start of next season. But its exactly what the franchise needs to do. You don't need a new HC and GM to draft the QB of the future, in fact, Minnesota drafting one this Spring makes it more attractive to potential HC candidates for 2022. Because Z ain't getting fired this year, nor is Spielman.Here's the perfect scenario: clear some players/space before trade deadline/offseason, cut Cousins before June, sign a vet bandaid to start, draft a QB to sit and learn and fire Z and Spielman after 2021 season and bring in the next whiz kid. The table will be set with cap space and still have some talent on the team that will continue to be loaded via the draft. I like Cousins, but that experiment failed ultimately. They took a swing.
Ideal maybe, but - how do you get Spielman and Zimmer to coordinate a scenario that only helps their successors?
There's also a concern that if the "next whiz kid" coach and/or GM doesn't get here until 2022, he might not want the QB picked in 2021. We could pick Trey Lance in 2021 and hire a coach who wants to pick Sam Howell.
@"Jor-El" said:@"StickyBun" said: I'm sure Zimmer is not interested in this as he can start to see the writing on the wall. He'll be 65 years old before the start of next season. But its exactly what the franchise needs to do. You don't need a new HC and GM to draft the QB of the future, in fact, Minnesota drafting one this Spring makes it more attractive to potential HC candidates for 2022. Because Z ain't getting fired this year, nor is Spielman.Here's the perfect scenario: clear some players/space before trade deadline/offseason, cut Cousins before June, sign a vet bandaid to start, draft a QB to sit and learn and fire Z and Spielman after 2021 season and bring in the next whiz kid. The table will be set with cap space and still have some talent on the team that will continue to be loaded via the draft. I like Cousins, but that experiment failed ultimately. They took a swing.
Ideal maybe, but - how do you get Spielman and Zimmer to coordinate a scenario that only helps their successors?
It helps the franchise. They like being employed. Does it matter if they like it or not? Spielman has been with the Vikings since 2006....hell, he may even survive this thing. Zimmer will not. I think the Wilfs like Spielman just a smidge more than Mike Zimmer. At this point there is a 0.0% chance because of the way Cousins contract is set up, he's on this team come summer and there's really no incentive for Cousins to restructure as he'd end up never recouping that money as he's not the answer for this team. Take the money, get cut and get a mid-level starting salary from another NFL team. That optimizes his financial situation.
@"StickyBun" said: I'm sure Zimmer is not interested in this as he can start to see the writing on the wall. He'll be 65 years old before the start of next season. But its exactly what the franchise needs to do. You don't need a new HC and GM to draft the QB of the future, in fact, Minnesota drafting one this Spring makes it more attractive to potential HC candidates for 2022. Because Z ain't getting fired this year, nor is Spielman.Here's the perfect scenario: clear some players/space before trade deadline/offseason, cut Cousins before June, sign a vet bandaid to start, draft a QB to sit and learn and fire Z and Spielman after 2021 season and bring in the next whiz kid. The table will be set with cap space and still have some talent on the team that will continue to be loaded via the draft. I like Cousins, but that experiment failed ultimately. They took a swing.
Yeah, the next "whiz kid." I LOVE that guy.
We may fire Zimmer. In fact, he may retire. He's already 8 years older than Bud Grant was when he retired, which sort of blows my mind.
But if we fire Spielman, it will be the biggest blunder this team has made since the days of Mike Lynn. You like getting guys like Justin Jefferson, Dalvin Cook, Eric Kendricks, Danielle Hunter, Stefon Diggs? Say goodbye to that. Because it's not typical.
Take it from a guy who follows the draft like a religion, very few teams draft like the Vikings have under Spielman. And remember what it was like before him. Willie Offord, Micheal Boireau, Roanall Smith, Williamson, etc.
The biggest problem on this team is not the acquisition of talent; it's taking that talent and getting them ready to play in big games and small. We didn't lose to the Eagles in the NFCC three years ago because we were less talented then them. We lost because we were out game planned. We didn't lose to the 49ers or the Packers and/or the Bears last year because we were less talented than them. We lost mostly because we were out game planned.
No, dumping Rick would be like overheating on the highway and getting out and changing your tire.
put Cousins on the trading block now... offer to pay part of his salary to any team that takes him off our hands for next year. we are stuck with that 20 million hit, but if we could sweeten the deal for a team to grab him this year if we agree to pay 7.5 million of his contract for next year (that lowers his cap hit for whatever team to takes him to 14.5 million (pretty attractive at that price IMO) then we would save that additional 7.5 million and possibly get enough interest to get back a day 2 pick?
is this possible? plausible?
@"MaroonBells" said:@"StickyBun" said: I'm sure Zimmer is not interested in this as he can start to see the writing on the wall. He'll be 65 years old before the start of next season. But its exactly what the franchise needs to do. You don't need a new HC and GM to draft the QB of the future, in fact, Minnesota drafting one this Spring makes it more attractive to potential HC candidates for 2022. Because Z ain't getting fired this year, nor is Spielman.Here's the perfect scenario: clear some players/space before trade deadline/offseason, cut Cousins before June, sign a vet bandaid to start, draft a QB to sit and learn and fire Z and Spielman after 2021 season and bring in the next whiz kid. The table will be set with cap space and still have some talent on the team that will continue to be loaded via the draft. I like Cousins, but that experiment failed ultimately. They took a swing.
Yeah, the next "whiz kid." I LOVE that guy.We may fire Zimmer. In fact, he may retire. He's already 8 years older than Bud Grant was when he retired, which sort of blows my mind.
But if we fire Spielman, it will be the biggest blunder this team has made since the days of Mike Lynn. You like getting guys like Justin Jefferson, Dalvin Cook, Eric Kendricks, Danielle Hunter, Stefon Diggs? Say goodbye to that. Because it's not typical.
Take it from a guy who follows the draft like a religion, very few teams draft like the Vikings have under Spielman. And remember what it was like before him. Willie Offord, Micheal Boireau, Roanall Smith, Williamson, etc.
The biggest problem on this team is not the acquisition of talent; it's taking that talent and getting them ready to play in big games and small. We didn't lose to the Eagles in the NFCC three years ago because we were less talented then them. We lost because we were out game planned. We didn't lose to the 49ers or the Packers and/or the Bears last year because we were less talented than them. We lost mostly because we were out game planned.
No, dumping Rick would be like overheating on the highway and getting out and changing your tire.
At some point, you have to want more. So is it the chicken or the egg? The players or the coaching? Look at how badly the Patriots draft, yet how many Superbowls? And conversely, look at how well Spielman can draft (sometimes), 0 Superbowls. There have been some shitty draft classes on his watch. Player evaluations are seriously overrated except one area: QB. And Spielman is sorely lacking there. Spielman has been in the player personnel game for over 20 years in the NFL, no Superbowls. Can you say Rick Spielman is a great selector of head coaches? Nope. Offensive linemen? Absolutely not.I don't dislike Spielman or Zimmer, but at some point how long do you give them? I'm asking.
@"StickyBun" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"StickyBun" said: I'm sure Zimmer is not interested in this as he can start to see the writing on the wall. He'll be 65 years old before the start of next season. But its exactly what the franchise needs to do. You don't need a new HC and GM to draft the QB of the future, in fact, Minnesota drafting one this Spring makes it more attractive to potential HC candidates for 2022. Because Z ain't getting fired this year, nor is Spielman.Here's the perfect scenario: clear some players/space before trade deadline/offseason, cut Cousins before June, sign a vet bandaid to start, draft a QB to sit and learn and fire Z and Spielman after 2021 season and bring in the next whiz kid. The table will be set with cap space and still have some talent on the team that will continue to be loaded via the draft. I like Cousins, but that experiment failed ultimately. They took a swing.
Yeah, the next "whiz kid." I LOVE that guy.We may fire Zimmer. In fact, he may retire. He's already 8 years older than Bud Grant was when he retired, which sort of blows my mind.
But if we fire Spielman, it will be the biggest blunder this team has made since the days of Mike Lynn. You like getting guys like Justin Jefferson, Dalvin Cook, Eric Kendricks, Danielle Hunter, Stefon Diggs? Say goodbye to that. Because it's not typical.
Take it from a guy who follows the draft like a religion, very few teams draft like the Vikings have under Spielman. And remember what it was like before him. Willie Offord, Micheal Boireau, Roanall Smith, Williamson, etc.
The biggest problem on this team is not the acquisition of talent; it's taking that talent and getting them ready to play in big games and small. We didn't lose to the Eagles in the NFCC three years ago because we were less talented then them. We lost because we were out game planned. We didn't lose to the 49ers or the Packers and/or the Bears last year because we were less talented than them. We lost mostly because we were out game planned.
No, dumping Rick would be like overheating on the highway and getting out and changing your tire.
At some point, you have to want more. So is it the chicken or the egg? The players or the coaching? Look at how badly the Patriots draft, yet how many Superbowls? And conversely, look at how well Spielman can draft (sometimes), 0 Superbowls. There have been some shitty draft classes on his watch. Player evaluations are seriously overrated except one area: QB. And Spielman is sorely lacking there. Spielman has been in the player personnel game for over 20 years in the NFL, no Superbowls. Can you say Rick Spielman is a great selector of head coaches? Nope. Offensive linemen? Absolutely not.I don't dislike Spielman or Zimmer, but at some point how long do you give them? I'm asking.
Speilman himself admitted that Zimmer made him a better talent evaluator and draft guy, which imo is saying he wasnt doing that great of a job prior. He now should understand the role of the HC in establishing what types of players to target for the schemes being deployed and be able to get that out of who ever would replace Zimmer.
@"JimmyinSD" said: put Cousins on the trading block now... offer to pay part of his salary to any team that takes him off our hands for next year. we are stuck with that 20 million hit, but if we could sweeten the deal for a team to grab him this year if we agree to pay 7.5 million of his contract for next year (that lowers his cap hit for whatever team to takes him to 14.5 million (pretty attractive at that price IMO) then we would save that additional 7.5 million and possibly get enough interest to get back a day 2 pick?is this possible? plausible?
I'm completely in favor, but.....name a potential trading partner? If I was a team looking for a veteran QB to play now, I would try to get Ryan Fitzpatrick from Miami long before Cousins. If I was a team looking for someone to throw a lot of interceptions, I would try to get Jameis Winston from New Orleans before Cousins.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"StickyBun" said: I'm sure Zimmer is not interested in this as he can start to see the writing on the wall. He'll be 65 years old before the start of next season. But its exactly what the franchise needs to do. You don't need a new HC and GM to draft the QB of the future, in fact, Minnesota drafting one this Spring makes it more attractive to potential HC candidates for 2022. Because Z ain't getting fired this year, nor is Spielman.Here's the perfect scenario: clear some players/space before trade deadline/offseason, cut Cousins before June, sign a vet bandaid to start, draft a QB to sit and learn and fire Z and Spielman after 2021 season and bring in the next whiz kid. The table will be set with cap space and still have some talent on the team that will continue to be loaded via the draft. I like Cousins, but that experiment failed ultimately. They took a swing.
Yeah, the next "whiz kid." I LOVE that guy.We may fire Zimmer. In fact, he may retire. He's already 8 years older than Bud Grant was when he retired, which sort of blows my mind.
But if we fire Spielman, it will be the biggest blunder this team has made since the days of Mike Lynn. You like getting guys like Justin Jefferson, Dalvin Cook, Eric Kendricks, Danielle Hunter, Stefon Diggs? Say goodbye to that. Because it's not typical.
Take it from a guy who follows the draft like a religion, very few teams draft like the Vikings have under Spielman. And remember what it was like before him. Willie Offord, Micheal Boireau, Roanall Smith, Williamson, etc.
The biggest problem on this team is not the acquisition of talent; it's taking that talent and getting them ready to play in big games and small. We didn't lose to the Eagles in the NFCC three years ago because we were less talented then them. We lost because we were out game planned. We didn't lose to the 49ers or the Packers and/or the Bears last year because we were less talented than them. We lost mostly because we were out game planned.
No, dumping Rick would be like overheating on the highway and getting out and changing your tire.
I agree with the first part wholeheartedly. I'd add the inability to find a QB who can lift the team on his shoulders when it needs it most is just as big. I thought Teddy might be that guy down the road, but we all know what happened there.
@"JimmyinSD" said: put Cousins on the trading block now... offer to pay part of his salary to any team that takes him off our hands for next year. we are stuck with that 20 million hit, but if we could sweeten the deal for a team to grab him this year if we agree to pay 7.5 million of his contract for next year (that lowers his cap hit for whatever team to takes him to 14.5 million (pretty attractive at that price IMO) then we would save that additional 7.5 million and possibly get enough interest to get back a day 2 pick?is this possible? plausible?
I don't think the NFL is like the MLB. I'm pretty sure the Vikings aren't allowed to offer to pay a portion of his remaining salary.
If that was the case, the Jets could have gotten something for Leveon Bell, rather than having to release him and void his deal.
Sometimes, teams pay a player a big signing bonus and a low base salary. That player then is easy to trade, because the first team has already paid most of the money. But I'm pretty sure teams can't just say, "we'll eat half of the future money on this boneheaded deal we signed, if you pay the other half."
At least that's how I understand it. So yeah, the Vikings are in quite the pickle.
@"StickyBun" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"StickyBun" said: I'm sure Zimmer is not interested in this as he can start to see the writing on the wall. He'll be 65 years old before the start of next season. But its exactly what the franchise needs to do. You don't need a new HC and GM to draft the QB of the future, in fact, Minnesota drafting one this Spring makes it more attractive to potential HC candidates for 2022. Because Z ain't getting fired this year, nor is Spielman.Here's the perfect scenario: clear some players/space before trade deadline/offseason, cut Cousins before June, sign a vet bandaid to start, draft a QB to sit and learn and fire Z and Spielman after 2021 season and bring in the next whiz kid. The table will be set with cap space and still have some talent on the team that will continue to be loaded via the draft. I like Cousins, but that experiment failed ultimately. They took a swing.
Yeah, the next "whiz kid." I LOVE that guy.We may fire Zimmer. In fact, he may retire. He's already 8 years older than Bud Grant was when he retired, which sort of blows my mind.
But if we fire Spielman, it will be the biggest blunder this team has made since the days of Mike Lynn. You like getting guys like Justin Jefferson, Dalvin Cook, Eric Kendricks, Danielle Hunter, Stefon Diggs? Say goodbye to that. Because it's not typical.
Take it from a guy who follows the draft like a religion, very few teams draft like the Vikings have under Spielman. And remember what it was like before him. Willie Offord, Micheal Boireau, Roanall Smith, Williamson, etc.
The biggest problem on this team is not the acquisition of talent; it's taking that talent and getting them ready to play in big games and small. We didn't lose to the Eagles in the NFCC three years ago because we were less talented then them. We lost because we were out game planned. We didn't lose to the 49ers or the Packers and/or the Bears last year because we were less talented than them. We lost mostly because we were out game planned.
No, dumping Rick would be like overheating on the highway and getting out and changing your tire.
At some point, you have to want more. So is it the chicken or the egg? The players or the coaching? Look at how badly the Patriots draft, yet how many Superbowls? And conversely, look at how well Spielman can draft (sometimes), 0 Superbowls. There have been some shitty draft classes on his watch. Player evaluations are seriously overrated except one area: QB. And Spielman is sorely lacking there. Spielman has been in the player personnel game for over 20 years in the NFL, no Superbowls. Can you say Rick Spielman is a great selector of head coaches? Nope. Offensive linemen? Absolutely not.I don't dislike Spielman or Zimmer, but at some point how long do you give them? I'm asking.
Go here: http://www.drafthistory.com/Check out the draft classes of every NFL team in the last several years. There are hits, misses, busts and "shitty draft classes" for every single NFL team. It's why they call the draft a crapshoot. But, on balance, if you compare drafts fairly, objectively, Rick holds up incredibly well. Easily within the top 5 to 7 GMs. Personally, I think he's the best drafting GM in the NFL, but if I said that, too many heads would explode and someone would have to swab the decks.
People call out Laquon Treadwell as a terrible pick and he was. But they don't seem to realize that every single team in the NFL has picks like that. N'Keal Harry, Corey Davis, John Ross, Corey Coleman, Josh Doctson, Kevin White, Nelson Agholor, Breshad Perriman, Phililp Dorsett, Kelvin Benjamin, Tavon Austin, Justin Blackmon, Michael Floyd, Kendall Wright, AJ Jenkins, Jonathan Baldwin, Darrius Heyward Bey, Jeremy Maclin, Hakeem Nicks, Kenny Britt....all 1st rounders....all busts. And that's just one position.
People talk about Pat Elflein as a bust. Really? He was a 3rd rounder. Don't make me do a list of 3rd rounders who aren't even playing in the NFL anymore. And for every Elflein, we got a Hunter or a Mattison or a McKinnon.
I would suck if the ownership of this team overreacted, misread its faults, and discarded the ONE thing it seems to do pretty well.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"StickyBun" said: I'm sure Zimmer is not interested in this as he can start to see the writing on the wall. He'll be 65 years old before the start of next season. But its exactly what the franchise needs to do. You don't need a new HC and GM to draft the QB of the future, in fact, Minnesota drafting one this Spring makes it more attractive to potential HC candidates for 2022. Because Z ain't getting fired this year, nor is Spielman.Here's the perfect scenario: clear some players/space before trade deadline/offseason, cut Cousins before June, sign a vet bandaid to start, draft a QB to sit and learn and fire Z and Spielman after 2021 season and bring in the next whiz kid. The table will be set with cap space and still have some talent on the team that will continue to be loaded via the draft. I like Cousins, but that experiment failed ultimately. They took a swing.
Yeah, the next "whiz kid." I LOVE that guy.We may fire Zimmer. In fact, he may retire. He's already 8 years older than Bud Grant was when he retired, which sort of blows my mind.
But if we fire Spielman, it will be the biggest blunder this team has made since the days of Mike Lynn. You like getting guys like Justin Jefferson, Dalvin Cook, Eric Kendricks, Danielle Hunter, Stefon Diggs? Say goodbye to that. Because it's not typical.
Take it from a guy who follows the draft like a religion, very few teams draft like the Vikings have under Spielman. And remember what it was like before him. Willie Offord, Micheal Boireau, Roanall Smith, Williamson, etc.
The biggest problem on this team is not the acquisition of talent; it's taking that talent and getting them ready to play in big games and small. We didn't lose to the Eagles in the NFCC three years ago because we were less talented then them. We lost because we were out game planned. We didn't lose to the 49ers or the Packers and/or the Bears last year because we were less talented than them. We lost mostly because we were out game planned.
No, dumping Rick would be like overheating on the highway and getting out and changing your tire.
Interesting fact about Bud! We should all get out of full-time work early and enjoy life sooner.
You're not wrong about Spielman doing some good things and getting good talent here. I think you overlook some parts of talent acquisition where he is weak - not just units (OL of course) but his love for late-rounders, even trading down to collect them, despite the Vikings getting Stefon Diggs and nothing else for all the picks (the highest number of any team from 2011-20) after round 3. Yes we have drafted good players - all in rounds 1-3. Spielman should figure that out and trade every pick in rounds 4-7 to get at least one extra 3rd or higher.
(You did kind of pick the absolute worst period of Viking drafting to compare Spielman to - the late 1990s when Denny thought he knew more than the rest of the world. Michael Boireau, yes, a 2nd round pick who would have been available in the 7th, and his performance proved round 7 would have been too high. But you did mercifully keep Dimitrius Underwood out of the conversation.)You're also right that game planning has been terrible. Bad coaching might be wasting the talent acquired, too. For every Justin Jefferson and Danielle Hunter there has been a Cordarelle Patterson or Jalyn Holmes. I know, every team has failed picks, but some players just don't seem to develop. Re my criticism of Spielman's Day 3 picks - are many wasted because no one has developed them on the coaching staff? A lot were pretty high 4th rounders that should not all be busts.
But, Maroon - isn't the GM accountable for choosing the head coach - and how long he stays? If Zimmer really is past his prime or has peaked in how far he can take the team, shouldn't Spielman figure that out before fans do?
Maybe the car was overheating and the driver (Spielman) ignored the temp gauge and the steam coming out of the hood and passed up a service station. Mechanical repairs are needed, but do you keep the driver who got them stranded on the highway and let the engine block crack?
I think Rick Spielman is a good drafter too. But his player trades are kind of... universally terrible?
BradfordNgakoueDiggsVedvik
Off the top of my head. Hopefully I'm forgetting some good ones.
And so it begins: traded Ngakoue to Baltimore. Should see more trades, they are tossing in the towel as they should.
@"pattersaur" said:I would add the Harvin and Diggs trades, and my main criticism in each is that he traded them when the entire league knew he had to move them. That said, in each case he did get enough to replace the player who forced the trade, and not everyone gets anything back when someone demands getting out. I still don't like that we traded Diggs, but luckily we seem to have come out even.I think Rick Spielman is a good drafter too. But his player trades are kind of... universally terrible? BradfordNgakoueDiggsVedvik Off the top of my head. Hopefully I'm forgetting some good ones.
Edit Post (mod action — author will see a notice)
Warn Poster
Suspend User (3 days)
The user will be suspended for 3 days and will receive an email with the reason and information about how to appeal.