LaCanfora: Vikings should reset RB market with Cook's contract
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-insider-notes-vikings-should-repeat-franchise-history-and-reset-the-market-with-new-dalvin-cook-contract/
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said: Pretty good article on why the Vikings can afford Dalvin Cook....By the time March 2021 rolls around, the Vikings’ cap situation will look vastly different....
The Vikings will go from one of the tightest cap situations to one of the best. Not only can they afford to fit a market-rate cap hit for Dalvin Cook under the cap, they are very likely to have the flexibility to make a big signing in free agency....
How will it change so quickly? Cornerbacks. In 2019 the Vikings spent $27 million in cap space on cornerbacks, fourth most in the NFL. In 2021 they are projected to spend $7.2 million. The draft picks of Jeff Gladney and Cameron Dantzler combined with 2018 first-round pick Mike Hughes entering the final year of his rookie deal equate to the Vikings spending almost nothing on a position that’s generally very expensive.
this has been said every year for as long as I can remember... and then next year comes and we are cap strapped once again.
Not sure what you define as "cap strapped" but teams are meant to use as much of the cap as possible.
but typically its good to have enough at the start of FA to not have to cut contributing players to make the other necessary moves to stay competitive. or in the case of this year, we had to release players just to get under the cap by the start of the new year. ie: strapped
...and we do that a lot, ya think?
Does the frequency matter if it just happened and could easily happen again?
Never mind, I thought you said "this has been said every year for as long as I can remember... and then next year comes and we are cap strapped once again" but I must have dreamt that.
Yes, every year we hear about how much better off the team will be under the cap and the next year comes and we never seem to have that money to go shopping FA, and about every year we end up having to let some good players walk.And imo blowing our was on a RB is a piss poor use of any perceived future surplus.
The Vikings haven't been big spenders in free agency recently because we're too busy paying all the young studs we developed... look at the contracts we've handed out recently... Thielen, Diggs, Hunter, Kendricks, Barr... I would rather retain the talent we developed into good players than spend big in FA and hope the new guys play well in our system.
@"Wetlander" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said: Pretty good article on why the Vikings can afford Dalvin Cook....By the time March 2021 rolls around, the Vikings’ cap situation will look vastly different....
The Vikings will go from one of the tightest cap situations to one of the best. Not only can they afford to fit a market-rate cap hit for Dalvin Cook under the cap, they are very likely to have the flexibility to make a big signing in free agency....
How will it change so quickly? Cornerbacks. In 2019 the Vikings spent $27 million in cap space on cornerbacks, fourth most in the NFL. In 2021 they are projected to spend $7.2 million. The draft picks of Jeff Gladney and Cameron Dantzler combined with 2018 first-round pick Mike Hughes entering the final year of his rookie deal equate to the Vikings spending almost nothing on a position that’s generally very expensive.
this has been said every year for as long as I can remember... and then next year comes and we are cap strapped once again.
Not sure what you define as "cap strapped" but teams are meant to use as much of the cap as possible.
but typically its good to have enough at the start of FA to not have to cut contributing players to make the other necessary moves to stay competitive. or in the case of this year, we had to release players just to get under the cap by the start of the new year. ie: strapped
...and we do that a lot, ya think?
Does the frequency matter if it just happened and could easily happen again?
Never mind, I thought you said "this has been said every year for as long as I can remember... and then next year comes and we are cap strapped once again" but I must have dreamt that.
Yes, every year we hear about how much better off the team will be under the cap and the next year comes and we never seem to have that money to go shopping FA, and about every year we end up having to let some good players walk.And imo blowing our was on a RB is a piss poor use of any perceived future surplus.
The Vikings haven't been big spenders in free agency recently because we're too busy paying all the young studs we developed... look at the contracts we've handed out recently... Thielen, Diggs, Hunter, Kendricks, Barr... I would rather retain the talent we developed into good players than spend big in FA and hope the new guys play well in our system.
It's that, but also having to overpay for a QB. We need to be finding our highest prices positions in the draft IMO so we can at least get a few cheap years out of them where we can load up at other positions to make a serious run.However I dont think resetting the market for an often injured albeit stud RB is a smart use of money when the goal is to win the most games and get the home fielld advantage for a playoff run.
Are we really over-paying for KC (on a relative basis vs other qb's?) As much as RS has proven draft savvy in many ways, he couldn't draft a franchise qb if his life depended on it...
Mixon, Kamara and Cook? All gonna get paid.
@"Wetlander" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"MaroonBells" said: Pretty good article on why the Vikings can afford Dalvin Cook....By the time March 2021 rolls around, the Vikings’ cap situation will look vastly different....
The Vikings will go from one of the tightest cap situations to one of the best. Not only can they afford to fit a market-rate cap hit for Dalvin Cook under the cap, they are very likely to have the flexibility to make a big signing in free agency....
How will it change so quickly? Cornerbacks. In 2019 the Vikings spent $27 million in cap space on cornerbacks, fourth most in the NFL. In 2021 they are projected to spend $7.2 million. The draft picks of Jeff Gladney and Cameron Dantzler combined with 2018 first-round pick Mike Hughes entering the final year of his rookie deal equate to the Vikings spending almost nothing on a position that’s generally very expensive.
this has been said every year for as long as I can remember... and then next year comes and we are cap strapped once again.
Not sure what you define as "cap strapped" but teams are meant to use as much of the cap as possible.
but typically its good to have enough at the start of FA to not have to cut contributing players to make the other necessary moves to stay competitive. or in the case of this year, we had to release players just to get under the cap by the start of the new year. ie: strapped
...and we do that a lot, ya think?
Does the frequency matter if it just happened and could easily happen again?
Never mind, I thought you said "this has been said every year for as long as I can remember... and then next year comes and we are cap strapped once again" but I must have dreamt that.
Yes, every year we hear about how much better off the team will be under the cap and the next year comes and we never seem to have that money to go shopping FA, and about every year we end up having to let some good players walk.And imo blowing our was on a RB is a piss poor use of any perceived future surplus.
The Vikings haven't been big spenders in free agency recently because we're too busy paying all the young studs we developed... look at the contracts we've handed out recently... Thielen, Diggs, Hunter, Kendricks, Barr... I would rather retain the talent we developed into good players than spend big in FA and hope the new guys play well in our system.
Rick agrees. And the Vikings have developed a reputation among agents for being good to their players. I think some would argue they're loyal to a fault, and maybe that's true to a degree, but this kind of reputation is currency.
@"purplefaithful" said: Are we really over-paying for KC (on a relative basis vs other qb's?) As much as RS has proven draft savvy in many ways, he couldn't draft a franchise qb if his life depended on it...
.....*cough*.....he did just draft Nate Stanley...
@"purplefaithful" said: Are we really over-paying for KC (on a relative basis vs other qb's?) As much as RS has proven draft savvy in many ways, he couldn't draft a franchise qb if his life depended on it...Mixon, Kamara and Cook? All gonna get paid.
I think most of the QB market is screwed up, if a QB cant take a team on his shoulders and carry inferior players he shouldnt be making what these QBs are making now. KC needs above average blocking and above average receivers coupled with a decent running game to play at his top level and that much level of required support should be devaluing him as well as most other QBs IMO. there are only a small handfull of QBs, working under a salary cap, that deserve the % of the cap that they get, and even saying that I think its likely time to take brady off that list. So maybe Rogers, Wilson, ??? a good not great QB whos contract handcuffs a team is a detriment to that team IMO.
@"purplefaithful" said: Are we really over-paying for KC (on a relative basis vs other qb's?) As much as RS has proven draft savvy in many ways, he couldn't draft a franchise qb if his life depended on it...Mixon, Kamara and Cook? All gonna get paid.
Ponder was a bad pick. But I'm convinced that if Teddy's leg didn't almost fall off, he'd be our franchise QB right now. Sadly, he might now become that for another team.
@"MaroonBells" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Are we really over-paying for KC (on a relative basis vs other qb's?) As much as RS has proven draft savvy in many ways, he couldn't draft a franchise qb if his life depended on it...Mixon, Kamara and Cook? All gonna get paid.
Ponder was a bad pick. But I'm convinced that if Teddy's leg didn't almost fall off, he'd be our franchise QB right now. Sadly, he might now become that for another team.
Ponder and a lot of bad QB decisions besides Christian.I'm not a Teddy (the player) fan some are but acknowledge you could be right about him. His best years may very well be ahead. He's certainly been resilient and now he's getting paid.
Sure wish he ended-up with Jax or Miami or any AFC team instead, glad he's not a Saint.
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Are we really over-paying for KC (on a relative basis vs other qb's?) As much as RS has proven draft savvy in many ways, he couldn't draft a franchise qb if his life depended on it...Mixon, Kamara and Cook? All gonna get paid.
I think most of the QB market is screwed up, if a QB cant take a team on his shoulders and carry inferior players he shouldnt be making what these QBs are making now. KC needs above average blocking and above average receivers coupled with a decent running game to play at his top level and that much level of required support should be devaluing him as well as most other QBs IMO. there are only a small handfull of QBs, working under a salary cap, that deserve the % of the cap that they get, and even saying that I think its likely time to take brady off that list. So maybe Rogers, Wilson, ??? a good not great QB whos contract handcuffs a team is a detriment to that team IMO.
Going down that line of thinking, most of the QBs aren't worth what they are getting paid. Wilson hasn't won a Super Bowl since he became a highly paid QB even though he has elevated some less talented teams to playoff contention. Same with Rodgers... One Super Bowl a decade ago when his salary wasn't consuming a large percentage of the cap.Brady has consistently taken below market deals to allow the Patriots to put a good team around him. That's not the norm, in fact, it's the exception to the rule. Every other team has ponied up for their franchise guy or found a young QB on a rookie contract that gives them financial flexibility for a few years until they have to pay him.
Cousins contract definitely affects what we can do in terms of signing FAs, but what's the alternative? Hope we luck out and find a rookie QB that is actually good right away so we can capitalize on a 3-4 year window before we have to pay him more than Cousins? It's not a sustainable model... and then in 3-4 years our young QB is taking up a large percentage of our cap and we're back to having this same conversation...
IMO, if you have a good QB (don't need a great one) on a market rate contract, you just need to shift gears and draft well and look for bargains in FA. If you have a good young QB on a rookie deal, maybe it makes more sense to do what the Rams and Eagles have done where you sign some big FAs and work the trade machine to surround that QB with as much high end talent as you can get.
There is no perfect model... and you can't expect to win a Super Bowl by building a great team and signing cheap journeyman QBs like Keenum, Tyrod Taylor, Ryan Fitzpatrick, etc. every couple years. You need a good coaching staff, a good QB, a good core group of players, and some luck.
@"Wetlander" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Are we really over-paying for KC (on a relative basis vs other qb's?) As much as RS has proven draft savvy in many ways, he couldn't draft a franchise qb if his life depended on it...Mixon, Kamara and Cook? All gonna get paid.
I think most of the QB market is screwed up, if a QB cant take a team on his shoulders and carry inferior players he shouldnt be making what these QBs are making now. KC needs above average blocking and above average receivers coupled with a decent running game to play at his top level and that much level of required support should be devaluing him as well as most other QBs IMO. there are only a small handfull of QBs, working under a salary cap, that deserve the % of the cap that they get, and even saying that I think its likely time to take brady off that list. So maybe Rogers, Wilson, ??? a good not great QB whos contract handcuffs a team is a detriment to that team IMO.
Going down that line of thinking, most of the QBs aren't worth what they are getting paid. Wilson hasn't won a Super Bowl since he became a highly paid QB even though he has elevated some less talented teams to playoff contention. Same with Rodgers... One Super Bowl a decade ago when his salary wasn't consuming a large percentage of the cap.Brady has consistently taken below market deals to allow the Patriots to put a good team around him. That's not the norm, in fact, it's the exception to the rule. Every other team has ponied up for their franchise guy or found a young QB on a rookie contract that gives them financial flexibility for a few years until they have to pay him.
Cousins contract definitely affects what we can do in terms of signing FAs, but what's the alternative? Hope we luck out and find a rookie QB that is actually good right away so we can capitalize on a 3-4 year window before we have to pay him more than Cousins? It's not a sustainable model... and then in 3-4 years our young QB is taking up a large percentage of our cap and we're back to having this same conversation...
IMO, if you have a good QB (don't need a great one) on a market rate contract, you just need to shift gears and draft well and look for bargains in FA. If you have a good young QB on a rookie deal, maybe it makes more sense to do what the Rams and Eagles have done where you sign some big FAs and work the trade machine to surround that QB with as much high end talent as you can get.
There is no perfect model... and you can't expect to win a Super Bowl by building a great team and signing cheap journeyman QBs like Keenum, Tyrod Taylor, Ryan Fitzpatrick, etc. every couple years. You need a good coaching staff, a good QB, a good core group of players, and some luck.
As they say, the only thing worse than overpaying a QB is not having a QB to overpay.I think because QBs in the draft are such a crap shoot, the best thing to do is get one in free agency or via trade. Easier said than done, because QBs of Cousins stature rarely become available. We were lucky that he became available right when we needed one.
@"Wetlander" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Are we really over-paying for KC (on a relative basis vs other qb's?) As much as RS has proven draft savvy in many ways, he couldn't draft a franchise qb if his life depended on it...Mixon, Kamara and Cook? All gonna get paid.
I think most of the QB market is screwed up, if a QB cant take a team on his shoulders and carry inferior players he shouldnt be making what these QBs are making now. KC needs above average blocking and above average receivers coupled with a decent running game to play at his top level and that much level of required support should be devaluing him as well as most other QBs IMO. there are only a small handfull of QBs, working under a salary cap, that deserve the % of the cap that they get, and even saying that I think its likely time to take brady off that list. So maybe Rogers, Wilson, ??? a good not great QB whos contract handcuffs a team is a detriment to that team IMO.
Going down that line of thinking, most of the QBs aren't worth what they are getting paid. Wilson hasn't won a Super Bowl since he became a highly paid QB even though he has elevated some less talented teams to playoff contention. Same with Rodgers... One Super Bowl a decade ago when his salary wasn't consuming a large percentage of the cap.Brady has consistently taken below market deals to allow the Patriots to put a good team around him. That's not the norm, in fact, it's the exception to the rule. Every other team has ponied up for their franchise guy or found a young QB on a rookie contract that gives them financial flexibility for a few years until they have to pay him.
Cousins contract definitely affects what we can do in terms of signing FAs, but what's the alternative? Hope we luck out and find a rookie QB that is actually good right away so we can capitalize on a 3-4 year window before we have to pay him more than Cousins? It's not a sustainable model... and then in 3-4 years our young QB is taking up a large percentage of our cap and we're back to having this same conversation...
IMO, if you have a good QB (don't need a great one) on a market rate contract, you just need to shift gears and draft well and look for bargains in FA. If you have a good young QB on a rookie deal, maybe it makes more sense to do what the Rams and Eagles have done where you sign some big FAs and work the trade machine to surround that QB with as much high end talent as you can get.
There is no perfect model... and you can't expect to win a Super Bowl by building a great team and signing cheap journeyman QBs like Keenum, Tyrod Taylor, Ryan Fitzpatrick, etc. every couple years. You need a good coaching staff, a good QB, a good core group of players, and some luck.
well the way they've been doing it for the last 40 years isnt getting it done either. the model of picking one high priced QB and building around him with whats left of the cap isnt getting it done for the Vikings or really any other team. Keep drafting QBs early and often IMO, this notion of not wanting quality competition at the QB spot IMO is a large reason that we are O for my life time in championship games in the salary cap era.I would be interested to see (somebody else figure this up) where the superbowl QBs rank in % of total cap by team for the cap era. yes the cap keeps going up, but how much of that increase is going to QBs vs other positions? is the QB slice of the pie getting larger and are those teams seeing the rewards of that cap distribution or are they so scared of losing their "franchise" QB that they settle for good but not good enough?
@"MaroonBells" said:@"Wetlander" said:@"JimmyinSD" said:@"purplefaithful" said: Are we really over-paying for KC (on a relative basis vs other qb's?) As much as RS has proven draft savvy in many ways, he couldn't draft a franchise qb if his life depended on it...Mixon, Kamara and Cook? All gonna get paid.
I think most of the QB market is screwed up, if a QB cant take a team on his shoulders and carry inferior players he shouldnt be making what these QBs are making now. KC needs above average blocking and above average receivers coupled with a decent running game to play at his top level and that much level of required support should be devaluing him as well as most other QBs IMO. there are only a small handfull of QBs, working under a salary cap, that deserve the % of the cap that they get, and even saying that I think its likely time to take brady off that list. So maybe Rogers, Wilson, ??? a good not great QB whos contract handcuffs a team is a detriment to that team IMO.
Going down that line of thinking, most of the QBs aren't worth what they are getting paid. Wilson hasn't won a Super Bowl since he became a highly paid QB even though he has elevated some less talented teams to playoff contention. Same with Rodgers... One Super Bowl a decade ago when his salary wasn't consuming a large percentage of the cap.Brady has consistently taken below market deals to allow the Patriots to put a good team around him. That's not the norm, in fact, it's the exception to the rule. Every other team has ponied up for their franchise guy or found a young QB on a rookie contract that gives them financial flexibility for a few years until they have to pay him.
Cousins contract definitely affects what we can do in terms of signing FAs, but what's the alternative? Hope we luck out and find a rookie QB that is actually good right away so we can capitalize on a 3-4 year window before we have to pay him more than Cousins? It's not a sustainable model... and then in 3-4 years our young QB is taking up a large percentage of our cap and we're back to having this same conversation...
IMO, if you have a good QB (don't need a great one) on a market rate contract, you just need to shift gears and draft well and look for bargains in FA. If you have a good young QB on a rookie deal, maybe it makes more sense to do what the Rams and Eagles have done where you sign some big FAs and work the trade machine to surround that QB with as much high end talent as you can get.
There is no perfect model... and you can't expect to win a Super Bowl by building a great team and signing cheap journeyman QBs like Keenum, Tyrod Taylor, Ryan Fitzpatrick, etc. every couple years. You need a good coaching staff, a good QB, a good core group of players, and some luck.
As they say, the only thing worse than overpaying a QB is not having a QB to overpay.I think because QBs in the draft are such a crap shoot, the best thing to do is get one in free agency or via trade. Easier said than done, because QBs of Cousins stature rarely become available. We were lucky that he became available right when we needed one.
but like Wet says, how many of those high dollar QBs have teams that are built for the SB? throw out Brady as he was taking less to keep the Pats competitive, of the rest of the SB QBs the last decade or so since the rookie cap was instituted, it really seems like the teams with the moderately paid, younger quality QBs are better off than those the are paying their "franchise" QB money and cutting quality at other spots.it will be interesting to see what happens to KC once they pay Mahomes, how much will that cripple the team they put around him?
Anyone else think that we've already seen the best of Jared Goff? I think the league has his number now.
Vikings reset the RB in 2011 with AD.
That same contract today, 9 years later is still up there.
9 years ago the salary cap was less, so it cost a greater % of the team Salary Cap.
@"Mattyman" said: Vikings reset the RB in 2011 with AD.That same contract today, 9 years later is still up there.
9 years ago the salary cap was less, so it cost a greater % of the team Salary Cap.
and the notion was at the time that it wouldnt hurt us since we werent paying market value for a QB, well now we are and the notion is still to pay top dollar to a RB.... the math doesnt work out when you factor in being able to pay more important guys, with potentially longer careers, like Harris, ONeill, and a few others that will be needing new deals soon.
@"StickyBun" said: Anyone else think that we've already seen the best of Jared Goff? I think the league has his number now.He wasn't as good as the media made him out to be during their run to the Super Bowl... It was Mcvay's offense and a strong running game that helped him be successful.
I can't remember who did the breakdown, but they basically said that the league figured out Mcvay's offense and the decline of Gurley and the Rams running game has hampered their offense.
Everything was predicated off of motion with Gurley in the backfield... they could do their jet sweep motion and either hand it off the to the WR, give it to Gurley, or play action pass off that same offensive look. Gave teams fits, but not anymore.
It shows these bright young offensive minds need to grow and adapt just like our crusty old school defensive guru. ;-)
@"JimmyinSD" said:@"Mattyman" said: Vikings reset the RB in 2011 with AD.That same contract today, 9 years later is still up there.
9 years ago the salary cap was less, so it cost a greater % of the team Salary Cap.
and the notion was at the time that it wouldnt hurt us since we werent paying market value for a QB, well now we are and the notion is still to pay top dollar to a RB.... the math doesnt work out when you factor in being able to pay more important guys, with potentially longer careers, like Harris, ONeill, and a few others that will be needing new deals soon.
I agree with you.
It's telling that from what I can tell, no one in this thread, even the people who are upbeat about a new contract for Dalvin are saying, "Yes! give him all the money! He's worth whatever it takes!"
The "supporters" of the deal seem to mostly be fans who are resigned to the fact that it's happening, so they may as well accept it and be happy. Rather than actually badly wanting the deal to occur. Just my read on the thread.And again I'll add, Dalvin is a great player when healthy. But paying him big bucks scares me.
@"StickyBun" said: Anyone else think that we've already seen the best of Jared Goff? I think the league has his number now.SFVike said the Rams have 18? new starters since the Superbowl.
Add tape of Goff and I can see why Goff is gonna struggle.
Either way you want to slice it, the games Cook has missed will and should work against any high deal.
Any deal MUST include incentives based on games/snaps played. It is the only sensible thing the Vikings can do to protect themselves.
Melvin Gordon just got 8 mil per year. Derrick Henry got franchise tagged and will get 10.278 mil.
I am having a hard time seeing how Cook should get more than Henry.
I think an 8 to 9 mil per year deal (for only 2 years added to 2020) with hefty incentives for games/snaps played plus more for any awards, etc. is pretty fair.
@"Mattyman" said:@"StickyBun" said: Anyone else think that we've already seen the best of Jared Goff? I think the league has his number now. SFVike said the Rams have 18? new starters since the Superbowl.Add tape of Goff and I can see why Goff is gonna struggle.
Makes you wonder if Gurley was truly the straw that stirred the drink?I think they've had some major OL upheaval too...Unless you're the Patriots, it seems sustainable success is very difficult in this era of NFL ball, and their run is way over now too.
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