Double-Down? Blow-it-up?

There's no way the org. is going to 'blow it up'. A soft re-boot is more likely, with hard decisions coming because of the cap and performance of some vets. Fans are fans and they are as fickle as it gets. The team can certainly improve on things, not trying to say it was all roses and rainbows but blow it all up?? LMAO. The team made it to the divisional round of the playoffs as a wildcard. 

If the team shits the bed in 2020, then you'll see it hit the fan. 

I don't really see the Vikings as a blow it up team. They have always been good enough to run for the playoffs year after year it seems. With the rare 6-10 and 3-13 season. They have always seems to just re-tool and work with what they have. 

Zim and Rick are alright, but to me it's all about QB.
I think Kirk is good, but I'd prefer that the Vikings be aggressive in drafting his replacement. If they can do that without blowing the rest of it up then go for it. Unless you find a Lamar or a Mahomes, then many times a young QB means a big roster churn. I like a lot of the Vikings players so yeah, in a perfect world they'd find a QB in the 3rd round this year, he'd be Russell Wilson, and we'd be off and running for the next 10 years. But I'm trying to be realistic.
For whatever reason, the Vikings under Zimmer seem to chase good years
with worse ones. There are quite a few reasons to think this
phenomena will reoccur next season. So if you believe that, then what's
the point in delaying the inevitable? One more (wasted) year of
mediocrity before the on-the-fencers decide they're comfortable with turnover? No thanks.

I don't think we need to blow it up...  like Sticky said a soft "re-boot" is in order given where our cap is sitting heading into 2020.  However, I wouldn't commit to Cousins just yet...  it seems like the Vikings are in the same situation that Kansas City and Baltimore were in a couple years ago.  They were playoff teams with good veteran QBs in place (Alex Smith and Joe Flacco), but they just couldn't get over the hump to be a legit contender.  What did they do?  They drafted Patrick Mahomes and Lamar Jackson.  I think the Vikings should be looking ahead to potentially find a QB that could take over for Kirk if it's more of the same next season...  being good, not great.

I think we are in a good spot with Cousins. Last year, he had an OC that clearly has no idea what he's doing (just fired by Jacksonville) and this year he WON a road playoff game vs a team who won 13 games. Expecting the same outcome vs the 49ers just isn't fair as i'll bet, without researching, I can count on one hand the number of QB's who have won back to back road playoff games vs 13 win teams. 
Let Kirk play through next year and see where he's at. If it's bad enough then not a lot of teams will be begging to sign him and perhaps we can resign to a more manageable salary. If he has another good year then we can franchise tag or look to extend. I do think this scenario is much different than Baltimore as Joe Flacco forgot how to throw a football past 10 yards, but KC is a fair comparison. The issue with that is this years QB class is rather weak, IMO, after Burrow and Tua. Herbert, Fromm, and Eason all are gambles and should not be our first round pick.

@"Wetlander" said: I don't think we need to blow it up...  like Sticky said a soft "re-boot" is in order given where our cap is sitting heading into 2020.  However, I wouldn't commit to Cousins just yet...  it seems like the Vikings are in the same situation that Kansas City and Baltimore were in a couple years ago.  They were playoff teams with good veteran QBs in place (Alex Smith and Joe Flacco), but they just couldn't get over the hump to be a legit contender.  What did they do?  They drafted Patrick Mahomes and Lamar Jackson.  I think the Vikings should be looking ahead to potentially find a QB that could take over for Kirk if it's more of the same next season...  being good, not great.

This is what I would like to see as part of their "soft" rebuild. It gives them the opportunity to move on from overpaying a QB who is reliant upon his surrounding cast, and in fact will help with financial freedom to improve the overall roster.  Cousins final contract year will give time to evaluate the young QB and get him some experience.

I fear extending Cousins now will lead to continued inconsistent results. Good against bad teams, bad against good teams.

If the Cousins acquisition proves to be an error in judgement, extending him early would only compound that mistake. No reason to rush into an extension. Although it may happen anyway, simply for cap relief.
Kicking the can down the road for cap relief could prove costly for fans and ownership.

@"Hawkvike25" said: I think we are in a good spot with Cousins. Last year, he had an OC that clearly has no idea what he's doing (just fired by Jacksonville) and this year he WON a road playoff game vs a team who won 13 games. Expecting the same outcome vs the 49ers just isn't fair as i'll bet, without researching, I can count on one hand the number of QB's who have won back to back road playoff games vs 13 win teams.  Let Kirk play through next year and see where he's at. If it's bad enough then not a lot of teams will be begging to sign him and perhaps we can resign to a more manageable salary. If he has another good year then we can franchise tag or look to extend. I do think this scenario is much different than Baltimore as Joe Flacco forgot how to throw a football past 10 yards, but KC is a fair comparison. The issue with that is this years QB class is rather weak, IMO, after Burrow and Tua. Herbert, Fromm, and Eason all are gambles and should not be our first round pick.

welcome hawk and some good first posts. If Herbert falls to us at 26 I would look like Usain Bolt running to the podium, but my current best evil plan is to trade down to the top of the second, pick up another 3rd or 4th and take Jalen Hurts 

With Diggs, Thielen, Cook, Hunter, Barr, Kendricks and likely Harris, we're far too young and talented for a rebuild. I think most successful teams now attempt the rolling rebuild, where you replace age and salary here and there with youth and lace 'em up again and hope to get lucky with a few well placed free agents and draft picks. That will be us. For example, is it crazy to think that whoever we replace Rhodes with will be an upgrade from 2019 Rhodes? Probably not. Same with Reiff. Probably not so Griffen or Joseph, but it is what it is. 

The key is the QB. Typically, you rebuild when you change either the FO, the coach, the QB, or all three. None of that is happening in '20. However, despite the fact that Cousins had a good year and you can write a narrative that justifies an extension, I don't think he's going to get it before we see what he does in '20. And I don't think Zimmer will either.

Cousins was under pressure a lot in San Francisco, so this is not just on him, but he also left a lot on the field. Plays where receivers were open and he just failed to pull the trigger. And so is Cousins exactly who his critics said he was? A QB who will always put up good numbers, because he's accurate and smart and well prepared. But a QB who in moments of pressure wilts like a petunia in the heat? I think maybe so. I don't think he has the balls. Maybe I'll change my mind if I see him with a porn star mustache and his shirt open. Maybe I'll change my mind when I see him toking a cigar on the sideline. OK, I'm joking, but only half. Can you win a Super Bowl with him? You bet you can. But he needs more protection than most. Let's get him that protection next year and see what happens. 

The answer to the question "do we draft a QB in April" depends on who's available. Obviously. But this may not be the best year to draft a 1st or 2nd round QB. It all but precludes you from taking one in '21 when you might have more clarity, and you might be in a much better position and get a good one. This is a terrible, TERRIBLE year to need a QB because half the NFL is in the same boat...

Either way, I suspect the story of Captain Kirk's time in Minnesota could look a lot like every drive in San Francisco on Saturday: 3 and out. 

I'm sure it will not be a blow-it-up, but I think the debate is what shape does the "double down" take. Is it, "We've got a lot invested in our QB and 2 WRs so let's add whatever the offense needs (offensive linemen) to let Cousins overcome his weaknesses and excel so we can win games with our offense"? Because that is more reasonable than if "blow it up" means trying to get the next Mahomes and rebuild the offense to a new style.
But I think the other side being argued may be Zimmer saying that his defense declined, has about 8 significant personnel holes, and that the focus of the team should be to put any and all resources to a defensive rebuild. In other words,  a strategy of double-down-to-win-by-defense. That scares me because it will neglect the offense and probably take 2-3 years.
If the team takes the double-down-to-improve-Cousins'-supporting-cast strategy, it means putting up with having a defense that has more gaps and maybe mistakes while counting on our offense to outscore opponents. Can Zimmer accept that? 

@"Wetlander" said: I don't think we need to blow it up...  like Sticky said a soft "re-boot" is in order given where our cap is sitting heading into 2020.  However, I wouldn't commit to Cousins just yet...  it seems like the Vikings are in the same situation that Kansas City and Baltimore were in a couple years ago.  They were playoff teams with good veteran QBs in place (Alex Smith and Joe Flacco), but they just couldn't get over the hump to be a legit contender.  What did they do?  They drafted Patrick Mahomes and Lamar Jackson.  I think the Vikings should be looking ahead to potentially find a QB that could take over for Kirk if it's more of the same next season...  being good, not great.

I agree with you that KC and BAL are good comps, which is partly why I cited Mahomes and Lamar in my post too.
The Chiefs is a *really* close comp because they traded up to get Mahomes when they were sitting at #27, very similar to our position this year.

Some will say "there's no Mahomes in this draft", but my take is there probably is.

Guys taken in the first round over the past 3 years, outside of the top 5, who all are promising:
Daniel Jones (#6), Josh Allen (#7), Mahomes (#10), Watson (#12), Lamar (#32).
There's been some bad ones drafted over that timespan too, but that's Five Guys right there who look like franchise QBs. Is Herbert that guy? Eason? Hurts? I don't know. But odds are at least one dude taken outside the top 5 will be really good. The Vikings should find and select THAT guy. Easier said then done but that's the job.
EDIT: And to follow-up, if the Vikings DON'T think any QB outside Burrow and Tua are worth squat, then I think they should trade either this year's first or this year's second away for better picks in 2021. Finding a franchise QB is the most important thing and until Minnesota does that, the rest is just spinning tires. I thought Kirk was the guy when MIN signed him. I now think differently.

I guess I don't understand how we can double down anymore. Cap wise seems we can only double back now. I feel extending Kirk might be a mistake. He has good numbers but seems to still leave me wanting. Next year will be interesting with the seat hot for both Rick and Mike. Even if they give both a small extension they will both be gone if we fail to reach the post season. 
It feels like we've been in all in mode since 2016 if you ask me. 

@"MaroonBells" said: With Diggs, Thielen, Cook, Hunter, Barr, Kendricks and likely Harris, we're far too young and talented for a rebuild. I think most successful teams now attempt the rolling rebuild, where you replace age and salary here and there with youth and lace 'em up again and hope to get lucky with a few well placed free agents and draft picks. That will be us. For example, is it crazy to think that whoever we replace Rhodes with will be an upgrade from 2019 Rhodes? Probably not. Same with Reiff. Probably not so Griffen or Joseph, but it is what it is. 

The key is the QB. Typically, you rebuild when you change either the FO, the coach, the QB, or all three. None of that is happening in '20. However, despite the fact that Cousins had a good year and you can write a narrative that justifies an extension, I don't think he's going to get it before we see what he does in '20. And I don't think Zimmer will either.

Cousins was under pressure a lot in San Francisco, so this is not just on him, but he also left a lot on the field. Plays where receivers were open and he just failed to pull the trigger. And so is Cousins exactly who his critics said he was? A QB who will always put up good numbers, because he's accurate and smart and well prepared. But a QB who in moments of pressure wilts like a petunia in the heat? I think maybe so. I don't think he has the balls. Maybe I'll change my mind if I see him with a porn star mustache and his shirt open. Maybe I'll change my mind when I see him toking a cigar on the sideline. OK, I'm joking, but only half. Can you win a Super Bowl with him? You bet you can. But he needs more protection than most. Let's get him that protection next year and see what happens. 

The answer to the question "do we draft a QB in April" depends on who's available. Obviously. But this may not be the best year to draft a 1st or 2nd round QB. It all but precludes you from taking one in '21 when you might have more clarity, and you might be in a much better position and get a good one. This is a terrible, TERRIBLE year to need a QB because half the NFL is in the same boat...

Either way, I suspect the story of Captain Kirk's time in Minnesota could look a lot like every drive in San Francisco on Saturday: 3 and out. 

Addressing the first paragraph, I agree that we have a lot of youth, but we have a lot of guys on the tip of the iceberg (in age) at key positions. Having an older DT and DE, by NFL terms, is rather concerning and it showed in games like SF, GB, and Seattle. I think moving on from Joseph, Reiff, Rhodes, and potentially Griffen allows us to go after guys like Scherff, while resigning Mack Alexander and Harris.
I posted in a different discussion that I would be in favor of trading diggs and a future pick to move up and take Lamb or Jeudy. Then use the remaining cap to sign a guy like AJ Green who is taller and quick (but getting older I know) to a 3 year deal worth $9-$10MM per year. Just an idea as 4 catches in two playoff games from our #1 receiver isn't something I was overly fond of while watching the playoffs.

It's not going to be totally blown up, not yet. Some key veterans making a lot of money will be restructured or gone. Cousins could actually ride out his deal. Same goes for Cook. I agree with continuity and stability on offense to see if Kirk can improve on this year. I don't believe for a minute that Zim and Spielman are counting on Udoh and Samia without a plan b going into the last year of their contracts. Unless we luck out in free agency, we are drafting a corner again.

@"Hawkvike25" said:

@"MaroonBells" said: With Diggs, Thielen, Cook, Hunter, Barr, Kendricks and likely Harris, we're far too young and talented for a rebuild. I think most successful teams now attempt the rolling rebuild, where you replace age and salary here and there with youth and lace 'em up again and hope to get lucky with a few well placed free agents and draft picks. That will be us. For example, is it crazy to think that whoever we replace Rhodes with will be an upgrade from 2019 Rhodes? Probably not. Same with Reiff. Probably not so Griffen or Joseph, but it is what it is. 

The key is the QB. Typically, you rebuild when you change either the FO, the coach, the QB, or all three. None of that is happening in '20. However, despite the fact that Cousins had a good year and you can write a narrative that justifies an extension, I don't think he's going to get it before we see what he does in '20. And I don't think Zimmer will either.

Cousins was under pressure a lot in San Francisco, so this is not just on him, but he also left a lot on the field. Plays where receivers were open and he just failed to pull the trigger. And so is Cousins exactly who his critics said he was? A QB who will always put up good numbers, because he's accurate and smart and well prepared. But a QB who in moments of pressure wilts like a petunia in the heat? I think maybe so. I don't think he has the balls. Maybe I'll change my mind if I see him with a porn star mustache and his shirt open. Maybe I'll change my mind when I see him toking a cigar on the sideline. OK, I'm joking, but only half. Can you win a Super Bowl with him? You bet you can. But he needs more protection than most. Let's get him that protection next year and see what happens. 

The answer to the question "do we draft a QB in April" depends on who's available. Obviously. But this may not be the best year to draft a 1st or 2nd round QB. It all but precludes you from taking one in '21 when you might have more clarity, and you might be in a much better position and get a good one. This is a terrible, TERRIBLE year to need a QB because half the NFL is in the same boat...

Either way, I suspect the story of Captain Kirk's time in Minnesota could look a lot like every drive in San Francisco on Saturday: 3 and out. 

Addressing the first paragraph, I agree that we have a lot of youth, but we have a lot of guys on the tip of the iceberg (in age) at key positions. Having an older DT and DE, by NFL terms, is rather concerning and it showed in games like SF, GB, and Seattle. I think moving on from Joseph, Reiff, Rhodes, and potentially Griffen allows us to go after guys like Scherff, while resigning Mack Alexander and Harris.
I posted in a different discussion that I would be in favor of trading diggs and a future pick to move up and take Lamb or Jeudy. Then use the remaining cap to sign a guy like AJ Green who is taller and quick (but getting older I know) to a 3 year deal worth $9-$10MM per year. Just an idea as 4 catches in two playoff games from our #1 receiver isn't something I was overly fond of while watching the playoffs.

@"Vikergirl" said: It's not going to be totally blown up, not yet. Some key veterans making a lot of money will be restructured or gone. Cousins could actually ride out his deal. Same goes for Cook. I agree with continuity and stability on offense to see if Kirk can improve on this year. I don't believe for a minute that Zim and Spielman are counting on Udoh and Samia without a plan b going into the last year of their contracts. Unless we luck out in free agency, we are drafting a corner again.

Agreed.  Our CB situation may force the Vikings to get a DB early in the draft.  But while everyone is looking for the next Mahomes or Jackson, I've seen too many of these "mobile" phenoms come and go to get my hopes up for some savior to take us to the promised land.  And while Kirk isn't playing this weekend, neither is Jackson or Watson or Wilson.

IMHO, while we need to develop a future QB, getting a couple of linemen that don't play like they are  on rollerskates is a far more realistic approach to get the best out of Cousins in the short term. 

Jimmy G isn't mobile. Matty Ice is not mobile. One could win it all this year and the other should have won it a few years but for his OC going mental.

And not 1 team in the League has a QB putting a team on his back except Rodgers. Mahomes has Hill and Kelce.  Brady couldn't carry the Pats and their lack of skill players. Brees couldn't carry the Saints who have Thomas, Kamara and not much else. Watson couldn't overcome Houston's crap Line. Jackson was hampered by Ingram being hobbled in their last game.

I see a lot of talk here about wanting someone who's more mobile than Kirk or can carry the team. Letting a guy with Top 10 stats across the board, stats very close to Jimmy G, go for a unicorn in the Draft strikes me as cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Herbert needs a ton of work. Eason needs even more. Tua could be Bradford 2.0. A mid-round flyer on a kid like Hurts males sense, but it's still a flyer.

Invest in both Lines via the Draft. Get Zimmer an aging vet or reclamation project like Roby to shore up his Secondary. Keep Harris and Weatherly and Mac.

Look, Kline is a League Average Player. But we all saw what an upgrade he was from Remmers. Even League Average at LG will go a long way to help this Line. Elf is literally Compton bad. Draft a LT and get a Kline-type player in FA to duke it out with Samia and watch the difference.

This team has very good WRs, DEs, LBs, RBs, TEs and Safeties. Fix the 3T, get a CB or two and upgrade the Line and Minnesota is a contender. That's a far cry from blowing it up.

I had a dream that the Vikings had the #1 pick going into week 17 of the 2020 season. They were playing the packers at lambeau in a snowstorm and GB was playing for the #1 or #4 seed with a loss. 
The Vikings won 38-10 and ended up picking 5th.

@"kmillard" said: I had a dream that the Vikings had the #1 pick going into week 17 of the 2020 season. They were playing the packers at lambeau in a snowstorm and GB was playing for the #1 or #4 seed with a loss.  The Vikings won 38-10 and ended up picking 5th.

Not sure if Im supposed to laugh or cry 

@"kmillard" said: I had a dream that the Vikings had the #1 pick going into week 17 of the 2020 season. They were playing the packers at lambeau in a snowstorm and GB was playing for the #1 or #4 seed with a loss.  The Vikings won 38-10 and ended up picking 5th.

If you are that close to getting Lawrence... You don't even take the field lol 

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?