Double-Down? Blow-it-up?

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

@"MaroonBells" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

He didn't make the flight. I have a feeling the San Francisco game erased all of the extension talk that was generated by the New Orleans game. You can argue that he didn't get time and this is true. He was under pressure, if I remember right, 17 out of 35 drop backs, which is ridiculous. He saw ghosts on the others and that can't happen to a player of his experience and salary. Sage Rosenfels did a pretty good breakdown on Twitter of these missed opportunities. 

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

https://www.vikings.com/news/lunchbreak-goessling-analyzes-vikings-roster-for-2020

Unfortunately, SF is a really bad match up for Kirk. Kirk does so well when he can get into rhythm early and execute what he's good at, which is play action. SF's game plan of stopping the run first and relying on a 4 man rush to get pressure was a great plan and it obviously worked. I'm not defending Kirk's play but the entire OL not getting ANY push on running plays really screwed us for passing downs as Diggs definitely likes to run longer routes and with a panicked Kirk, you aren't going to have a lot of success. Play calling was suspect and sure, Kirk's play was awful, but I dont know of a single person on offense who really played to their potential last weekend.

I think another issue with Kirk is that he has been programmed to be overly cautious against the turn over,  he rarely puts the ball out there where the receiver doesnt have a clear advantage.  you wont throw a lot of picks that way,  but you will also be missing out on a lot of potential big plays,  and to put a defense like san frans on their heels its going to take more than one fluke TD to get them to adjust their D game plan.    IMO Zimmers ball security approach is paralyzing Cousins at times.   I know I am going to get ripped for putting this on Zimmer,  but we have had one QB in Zimmers time here that would just let it fly and Zimmer didnt like him despite that being the teams best year under Zimmer.  ( i know I wasnt a Case fan either,  but that was for other reasons, but I am pretty sure Zims problems were around his tendency to toss it up and let who ever wanted it the most to go get it.)

@"JimmyinSD" said: I think another issue with Kirk is that he has been programmed to be overly cautious against the turn over,  he rarely puts the ball out there where the receiver doesnt have a clear advantage.  you wont throw a lot of picks that way,  but you will also be missing out on a lot of potential big plays,  and to put a defense like san frans on their heels its going to take more than one fluke TD to get them to adjust their D game plan.    IMO Zimmers ball security approach is paralyzing Cousins at times.   I know I am going to get ripped for putting this on Zimmer,  but we have had one QB in Zimmers time here that would just let it fly and Zimmer didnt like him despite that being the teams best year under Zimmer.  ( i know I wasnt a Case fan either,  but that was for other reasons, but I am pretty sure Zims problems were around his tendency to toss it up and let who ever wanted it the most to go get it.)

I asked myself, what was the one thing Case had, that no other Zimmer era QB had ?

It was his Houdini like gift to escape pressure and make plays off script. He didn't need a great offensive line to do well. Consider how well he did despite not having the a very accurate or strong arm. He also was good at reading defenses and had an outstanding OC to help him. He also had Zimmer's defense which was at it's peak.

I understand why Zimmer didn't want to stick with Case, and chose Cousins. They have one more season to make it pay off or it will be a mistake that contributes to some defensive decline due to cap issues.

Do you also think Zimmer's conservative nature has also lead to a lack of aggressive game plans and a team that comes out flat in big games at times?

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

Kirk is just moody maybe. When he's in the mood he throws and games. When he's not he worries and holds. I'm getting a little tired of wondering which will show up. I'm also getting even more tired of Kirk not showing up most times when needed most.
He is what he is. I don't think you build around someone like him. You always build a team but a team any decent QB can win with is not the same as building around one. For that we could have built a team and got Case or someone like that.

Conservative my ass. Top 10 or better in virtually every single Deep Passing statistic this year.

You all either have agendas or are overcomplicating things. Cousins can't handle interior pressure. The early it happens in a game the worse he plays. Dude took licks and completed intermediate and long throws against New Orleans. But for the most part he got good protection and the Saints had to resort to blitzing.

San Francisco was in his face from jump street without needing to blitz. And who else did they shut down? Rodgers. It wasn't a fluke.

It's not ideal that Cousins gets rattled by early pressure and stops looking down the field. But when he's got time he's literally one of the best passers in the League including going deep.

Beef up the LG and LT and if z Kirk wilts we have the final answer. Until then it's an imperfect analysis.

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

Kirk is just moody maybe. When he's in the mood he throws and games. When he's not he worries and holds. I'm getting a little tired of wondering which will show up. I'm also getting even more tired of Kirk not showing up most times when needed most.
He is what he is. I don't think you build around someone like him. You always build a team but a team any decent QB can win with is not the same as building around one. For that we could have built a team and got Case or someone like that.

2019 Keenum: 10 games played, 160 completions/247 attempts, 64.8%, 6.9 ya, 11 td, 5 int, 91.3 qbr
2019 Cousins: 15 games played, 307 completions/444 attempts, 69.1%, 8.1 ya, 26 td, 6 int, 107.4 qbr

The same Keenum who spent the playoff's watching em? Not winning a game? 

I get KC has some flaws, some that may never go away, he needs a good surround. But he is durable and he is accurate and he is in the right system. These names getting tossed about as clear-cut replacements just continue to boggle my brain. 

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

Kirk is just moody maybe. When he's in the mood he throws and games. When he's not he worries and holds. I'm getting a little tired of wondering which will show up. I'm also getting even more tired of Kirk not showing up most times when needed most.
He is what he is. I don't think you build around someone like him. You always build a team but a team any decent QB can win with is not the same as building around one. For that we could have built a team and got Case or someone like that.

2019 Keenum: 10 games played, 160 completions/247 attempts, 64.8%, 6.9 ya, 11 td, 5 int, 91.3 qbr
2019 Cousins: 15 games played, 307 completions/444 attempts, 69.1%, 8.1 ya, 26 td, 6 int, 107.4 qbr

The same Keenum who spent the playoff's watching em? Not winning a game? 

I get KC has some flaws, some that may never go away, he needs a good surround. But he is durable and he is accurate and he is in the right system. These names getting tossed about as clear-cut replacements just continue to boggle my brain. 

No my point is if you don't have an elite QB you try to win as a team. We are spending elite QB money on a guy who rarely beats elite teams.
I just said Case it could be anybody. Kirk is top paid and that is holding us back from adding those other pieces that anybody could be good enough to win with.
I'm over Kirk. We each make up our own minds. 

By the time his deal is up it won't be Elite money. Same as Jimmy G. The cap goes up, guys get extended and the deals from 2 to 3 years ago fall down the list. It will be a Tier 2 contract for a Tier 2 QB by this time next year. That's just a fact.

With Mahomes and Watson looking at new deals, the franchise number is going to get skewed big time...let alone what Jerruah does with Zak...assuming we want to go that route...

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

Kirk is just moody maybe. When he's in the mood he throws and games. When he's not he worries and holds. I'm getting a little tired of wondering which will show up. I'm also getting even more tired of Kirk not showing up most times when needed most.
He is what he is. I don't think you build around someone like him. You always build a team but a team any decent QB can win with is not the same as building around one. For that we could have built a team and got Case or someone like that.

2019 Keenum: 10 games played, 160 completions/247 attempts, 64.8%, 6.9 ya, 11 td, 5 int, 91.3 qbr
2019 Cousins: 15 games played, 307 completions/444 attempts, 69.1%, 8.1 ya, 26 td, 6 int, 107.4 qbr

The same Keenum who spent the playoff's watching em? Not winning a game? 

I get KC has some flaws, some that may never go away, he needs a good surround. But he is durable and he is accurate and he is in the right system. These names getting tossed about as clear-cut replacements just continue to boggle my brain. 

No my point is if you don't have an elite QB you try to win as a team. We are spending elite QB money on a guy who rarely beats elite teams.
I just said Case it could be anybody. Kirk is top paid and that is holding us back from adding those other pieces that anybody could be good enough to win with.
I'm over Kirk. We each make up our own minds. 

Wilson
Roethilsburger
Rogers
Goff 
Wentz
Ryan 

All made more in 2019 base vs Cousins.

KC is getting paid about the same as JG and Stafford. I dont think that's the wrong place salary wise for him. 

Smith
Dalton
Mayfield
Flacco
Fowles
Newton
Brissett
Murray
Darnold
Trubisky
Rosen
Hoyer
Haskins
And others made less

The one who's getting robbery $ is KC with Mahomes. NO is investing 25 into Brees and more with Bridgewater. 

I guess my point is I'm not seeing many on the getting paid less pile that are a clear cut above KC and I'd argue most of em are quite a step down (or on Rook deals still). 

Does a lesser QB and better surround = more wins than double down on OL with KC?

I dont believe that to be the case when I look at the names. We'll have all off-season to banter it about.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/quarterback/

@"jargomcfargo" said:

@"JimmyinSD" said: I think another issue with Kirk is that he has been programmed to be overly cautious against the turn over,  he rarely puts the ball out there where the receiver doesnt have a clear advantage.  you wont throw a lot of picks that way,  but you will also be missing out on a lot of potential big plays,  and to put a defense like san frans on their heels its going to take more than one fluke TD to get them to adjust their D game plan.    IMO Zimmers ball security approach is paralyzing Cousins at times.   I know I am going to get ripped for putting this on Zimmer,  but we have had one QB in Zimmers time here that would just let it fly and Zimmer didnt like him despite that being the teams best year under Zimmer.  ( i know I wasnt a Case fan either,  but that was for other reasons, but I am pretty sure Zims problems were around his tendency to toss it up and let who ever wanted it the most to go get it.)

The effect of Zimmer's conservative philosophy on QB's is interesting and may have played a role in the desire to sign Cousins. But I think Cousins has had that risk averse tendency before he became a Viking.

I asked myself, what was the one thing Case had, that no other Zimmer era QB had ?

It was his Houdini like gift to escape pressure and make plays off script. He didn't need a great offensive line to do well. Consider how well he did despite not having the a very accurate or strong arm. He also was good at reading defenses and had an outstanding OC to help him. He also had Zimmer's defense which was at it's peak.

I understand why Zimmer didn't want to stick with Case, and chose Cousins. They have one more season to make it pay off or it will be a mistake that contributes to some defensive decline due to cap issues.

Do you also think Zimmer's conservative nature has also lead to a lack of aggressive game plans and a team that comes out flat in big games at times?

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

Kirk is just moody maybe. When he's in the mood he throws and games. When he's not he worries and holds. I'm getting a little tired of wondering which will show up. I'm also getting even more tired of Kirk not showing up most times when needed most.
He is what he is. I don't think you build around someone like him. You always build a team but a team any decent QB can win with is not the same as building around one. For that we could have built a team and got Case or someone like that.

2019 Keenum: 10 games played, 160 completions/247 attempts, 64.8%, 6.9 ya, 11 td, 5 int, 91.3 qbr
2019 Cousins: 15 games played, 307 completions/444 attempts, 69.1%, 8.1 ya, 26 td, 6 int, 107.4 qbr

The same Keenum who spent the playoff's watching em? Not winning a game? 

I get KC has some flaws, some that may never go away, he needs a good surround. But he is durable and he is accurate and he is in the right system. These names getting tossed about as clear-cut replacements just continue to boggle my brain. 

No my point is if you don't have an elite QB you try to win as a team. We are spending elite QB money on a guy who rarely beats elite teams.
I just said Case it could be anybody. Kirk is top paid and that is holding us back from adding those other pieces that anybody could be good enough to win with.
I'm over Kirk. We each make up our own minds. 

Wilson
Roethilsburger
Rogers
Goff 
Wentz
Ryan 

All made more in 2019 base vs Cousins.

KC is getting paid about the same as JG and Stafford. I dont think that's the wrong place salary wise for him. 

Smith
Dalton
Mayfield
Flacco
Fowles
Newton
Brissett
Murray
Darnold
Trubisky
Rosen
Hoyer
Haskins
And others made less

The one who's getting robbery $ is KC with Mahomes. NO is investing 25 into Brees and more with Bridgewater. 

I guess my point is I'm not seeing many on the getting paid less pile that are a clear cut above KC and I'd argue most of em are quite a step down (or on Rook deals still). 

Does a lesser QB and better surround = more wins than double down on OL with KC?

I dont believe that to be the case when I look at the names. We'll have all off-season to banter it about.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/quarterback/

I understand all that. Then Kirks plays the Bears or the Packers. The Seahags or the  Chiefs...ect.  You know the games he was brought in to be the difference maker and we still don't win. I don't blame people for supporting Kirk. I don't ever blame Kirk. He's a Super nice guy. Loving family man, bet he even picks up after his dog. I'd love him as my neighbor. I'm not yet sold on him as the guy who's gonna win me that BIG game or enough of any big games to get there.

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

Kirk is just moody maybe. When he's in the mood he throws and games. When he's not he worries and holds. I'm getting a little tired of wondering which will show up. I'm also getting even more tired of Kirk not showing up most times when needed most.
He is what he is. I don't think you build around someone like him. You always build a team but a team any decent QB can win with is not the same as building around one. For that we could have built a team and got Case or someone like that.

2019 Keenum: 10 games played, 160 completions/247 attempts, 64.8%, 6.9 ya, 11 td, 5 int, 91.3 qbr
2019 Cousins: 15 games played, 307 completions/444 attempts, 69.1%, 8.1 ya, 26 td, 6 int, 107.4 qbr

The same Keenum who spent the playoff's watching em? Not winning a game? 

I get KC has some flaws, some that may never go away, he needs a good surround. But he is durable and he is accurate and he is in the right system. These names getting tossed about as clear-cut replacements just continue to boggle my brain. 

No my point is if you don't have an elite QB you try to win as a team. We are spending elite QB money on a guy who rarely beats elite teams.
I just said Case it could be anybody. Kirk is top paid and that is holding us back from adding those other pieces that anybody could be good enough to win with.
I'm over Kirk. We each make up our own minds. 

Wilson
Roethilsburger
Rogers
Goff 
Wentz
Ryan 

All made more in 2019 base vs Cousins.

KC is getting paid about the same as JG and Stafford. I dont think that's the wrong place salary wise for him. 

Smith
Dalton
Mayfield
Flacco
Fowles
Newton
Brissett
Murray
Darnold
Trubisky
Rosen
Hoyer
Haskins
And others made less

The one who's getting robbery $ is KC with Mahomes. NO is investing 25 into Brees and more with Bridgewater. 

I guess my point is I'm not seeing many on the getting paid less pile that are a clear cut above KC and I'd argue most of em are quite a step down (or on Rook deals still). 

Does a lesser QB and better surround = more wins than double down on OL with KC?

I dont believe that to be the case when I look at the names. We'll have all off-season to banter it about.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/quarterback/

I understand all that. Then Kirks plays the Bears or the Packers. The Seahags or the  Chiefs...ect.  You know the games he was brought in to be the difference maker and we still don't win. I don't blame people for supporting Kirk. I don't ever blame Kirk. He's a Super nice guy. Loving family man, bet he even picks up after his dog. I'd love him as my neighbor. I'm not yet sold on him as the guy who's gonna win me that BIG game or enough of any big games to get there.

Ha!

I used to say the same about Leslie Frazier...A lovely man who'd you'd love as a neighbor or even an in-law...

Hey I get the trepidation over Cousins.

Look at the big games and it's not encouraging. I just dont see a viable alternative.

They really dont have a choice right now to do much else than the OL double-down and hope it gets us more wins in 20 vs 19.

Dont get swept by Pack and Bears? Like most seasons? Thats a 12 win season vs 10.

I hope RS gives a few posters here a call on what to do with the left side of that OL :)

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"purplefaithful" said:

@"suncoastvike" said:

@"Wetlander" said:

@"MaroonBells" said:

Watch the tape from those games and see how many times Diggs is open but just doesn't get the ball. At times because Cousins was under too much pressure, but also at times when he was not and just didn't pull the trigger. Diggs is far from the problem. One can make a "best use of resources" argument in favor of a trade, but not a talent or injury one. 

You're right that if you're going to trade a receiver, Diggs would be the one to trade. I disagree with anyone who argues that Thielen would bring as much in return. He wouldn't. And that's mostly due to age. That said, teams almost never trade a star player for a pick that replaces that star player (Moss/Williamson notwithstanding). The potential failure of that trade is too conspicuous. 

Yes, Joseph, Rhodes, Griffen and Reiff are probably gone. We're currently $5M over the cap, which is expected to increase by $8M, putting us at $3M. Releasing the above frees roughly $40, giving us $43M to spend on our own free agents (likely Harris and Weatherly. Maybe Waynes, Mack Al) and perhaps one key free agent (Scherff?) and a couple of lower tier guys. All without sacrificing your best receiver for a draft pick that could easily be Troy Williamson or Corey Davis or John Ross or Corey Coleman or Will Fuller....

This (bolded part of your post) is 100% true.  I saw some screenshots of Kirk at the top of his drop with no pressure and he had opportunities to hit Diggs downfield in single coverage and either didn't see it or refused to throw it.  We can't have that...  especially in games where San Francisco clearly made it an emphasis to stop our running game.  It's very concerning after watching Cousins take those shots and make that throw to Thielen against New Orleans...  where did that guy go?

Kirk is just moody maybe. When he's in the mood he throws and games. When he's not he worries and holds. I'm getting a little tired of wondering which will show up. I'm also getting even more tired of Kirk not showing up most times when needed most.
He is what he is. I don't think you build around someone like him. You always build a team but a team any decent QB can win with is not the same as building around one. For that we could have built a team and got Case or someone like that.

2019 Keenum: 10 games played, 160 completions/247 attempts, 64.8%, 6.9 ya, 11 td, 5 int, 91.3 qbr
2019 Cousins: 15 games played, 307 completions/444 attempts, 69.1%, 8.1 ya, 26 td, 6 int, 107.4 qbr

The same Keenum who spent the playoff's watching em? Not winning a game? 

I get KC has some flaws, some that may never go away, he needs a good surround. But he is durable and he is accurate and he is in the right system. These names getting tossed about as clear-cut replacements just continue to boggle my brain. 

No my point is if you don't have an elite QB you try to win as a team. We are spending elite QB money on a guy who rarely beats elite teams.
I just said Case it could be anybody. Kirk is top paid and that is holding us back from adding those other pieces that anybody could be good enough to win with.
I'm over Kirk. We each make up our own minds. 

Wilson
Roethilsburger
Rogers
Goff 
Wentz
Ryan 

All made more in 2019 base vs Cousins.

KC is getting paid about the same as JG and Stafford. I dont think that's the wrong place salary wise for him. 

Smith
Dalton
Mayfield
Flacco
Fowles
Newton
Brissett
Murray
Darnold
Trubisky
Rosen
Hoyer
Haskins
And others made less

The one who's getting robbery $ is KC with Mahomes. NO is investing 25 into Brees and more with Bridgewater. 

I guess my point is I'm not seeing many on the getting paid less pile that are a clear cut above KC and I'd argue most of em are quite a step down (or on Rook deals still). 

Does a lesser QB and better surround = more wins than double down on OL with KC?

I dont believe that to be the case when I look at the names. We'll have all off-season to banter it about.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/quarterback/

I understand all that. Then Kirks plays the Bears or the Packers. The Seahags or the  Chiefs...ect.  You know the games he was brought in to be the difference maker and we still don't win. I don't blame people for supporting Kirk. I don't ever blame Kirk. He's a Super nice guy. Loving family man, bet he even picks up after his dog. I'd love him as my neighbor. I'm not yet sold on him as the guy who's gonna win me that BIG game or enough of any big games to get there.

Ha!

I used to say the same about Leslie Frazier...A lovely man who'd you'd love as a neighbor or even an in-law...

Hey I get the trepidation over Cousins.

Look at the big games and it's not encouraging. I just dont see a viable alternative.

They really dont have a choice right now to do much else than the OL double-down and hope it gets us more wins in 20 vs 19.

Dont get swept by Pack and Bears? Like most seasons? Thats a 12 win season vs 10.

I hope RS gives a few posters here a call on what to do with the left side of that OL :)

I don't think there is a better alternative right now. So just run it out. I just don't see extending him out to get cap relief and hope what hasn't worked yet will next year. That is not a better alternative I think.  I'm afraid though it's better for Mike a Rick. They have no alternative but to make it work. Which only makes me sad now because I really can't shake the feeling next year is  pointless already and hope of a real rebuild isn't going to happen till 2021. The thought of another window closing with no reward is depressing. I'm not usually one who let's hopelessness prevail but it's really kicking my @ss right now