I am stealing this from P1 on the horn board, but this pretty much sums up my thoughts on the situation as well.
If you like Kirk or not there is not doubt as soon as Zimmer told Flip to run the ball more Kirk's play has fallen off.
Weeks 1-7 last year when Kirk was throwing 40 times a game the team was 4-2-1 (should have been 5-2 but for kickers)
Per game during those weeks:
Attempts: 43
Comp%: 70
Yards/G: 309
TDs: 14
TD%: 4.67
Ints: 3
Int%: 1
Rating:101.8
Yards/Attempt: 7.21
AY/A:7.69
I don't care what anyone says those are good numbers so its not like he is not capable of performing well. He has more talent than any QB the Vikings have had since Favre. No Case lovers I don't give a shit how cheap he was he wasn't going to win the Vikings the Super Bowl. And no Teddy lovers, Teddy is in the Sean Peyton offense now and still looks the same. A lot people wanted to blame the coordinators for holding Teddy back but he is what he is. When game manager is looked up they should have a picture of Teddy which is why Zimmer loved him.
Which baffles me why they went out and got Kirk and now are trying to change him. The history is there if you like him or not Kirk is able to throw the ball and put up numbers. Now they are asking him, behind a piss poor pass protecting Oline lets be honest, to do deep play action passes which basically just gives the Dline and extra second or two to get to him before he has to avoid the rush and try to throw.
Kirk obviously folds under pressure, but the coaching staff is doing him no favors with what is being asked of him. If the Oline can't block on over 50% of his drop backs which is statistical fact you need to do something different.
Some players are rhythm players and Kirk may be one, when you don't throw the ball enough because you are running it so much or you can't get the pass off its hard to get into a rhythm.
But none of that takes away from the fact that Kirk can't seem to rise to the moment and make a play out of nothing (most of time) when they need him to He is just not a gamer like Case is/was. Case could innovate and try to make something happen, its just too bad his physical limitations wouldn't allow him to make all the throws he wanted to make.
So while Kirk seems to be getting blamed for everything if you look at things objectively it can't possibly be all on him, the coaching staff, the blocking and the receivers need to step up as well.
Read more: http://vikinghorn.proboards.com/thread/10035/zimmer-regrets-releasing-sloter#ixzz612NtFLTL
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
This team is on it's 4th OC and system in 4 years.Last year, with Cook out 6 of the first 8 weeks, the offense was still very productive and Thielen was setting records.But noooo, Zimmer wanted to run the dinosaur offense.So they fire JDF, who is now helping Minshew in Jacksonville, and promote Stefanski who has to be a "yes" man.
Is it any wonder the skill players are upset?They are just high paid decoys.Cousins has thrown 99 passes in 4 games and people complain if he misses a deep one that has a 50% or less chance of success.
The Vikings should use Cook like the Steelers used Bell and throw him more passes.They should never have him in to block because he is terrible at pass pro.He got blasted on the one play where Kirk fumbled. That still is on Kirk but very very few posters mention Cook's whiff.
Maybe Cousins is not the answer? OK.
But changing the OC and system every year is worse.
Cook is leading the Vikings with 15 receptions. That's 23.4% of the Vikings' completions (15/64). How much more do you want?
Case was magic avoiding the rush and creating his own passing rhythm. If you need a classic pocket and an offensive line to create your rhythm passing then your arm talent comes with an asterisk.
No one is going to argue Case had a better arm. Everyone argues about the results at the end of day and the money "go to" is that Case got lucky. He created a hell of a lot more luck in one game (not an NFCC game pun) than Cousins has over his entire Vikings career...
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ SFVikeFan said:
O-line is a separate issue, separate topic.
When Cousins had a clean pocket, clear view, he overshot Thielen. I can think of other plays where the pocket was clean and he ran out of it.
For $84 million, when you have a clean pocket and a guy open, those are the throws I expect him to hit.
I dont think so, a shit OL creates shit QB play. just because the beatings are constant doenst mean they dont have a negative affect on nearly every play. That OL needs to improve by a long ways before KC should be expected to be comfortable in any pocket they create.
And shit QB play makes the OL look worse. I just heard on skor north that 7 of the 17 pressure yesterday are attributed to Cousins (it's from PFF, which I dislike their grades, but do accept their counting stats and they separate OL pressures from self inflicted QB pressures).
I have a lot of conflicting thoughts on the matter. I don’t think Cousins is our long term
QB. I don’t think we’ve surrounded him
or a 2020 rookie QB with an adequate OLine.
I don’t think our playcalling or offensive gameplanning is adequate or
nuanced enough to work well against top defenses. I think it’s a tall ask given Stefanski still
has less than a years worth of playcalling experience, and that the whole team only
has 3 games of experience within this system.
I’d like to think that as they gain more experience, we’ll have more
success schematically. I also don’t
think Cousins looks fully comfortable in this scheme. I would hope that as time goes on he will be
audibling to get us out of bad looks into better ones. I think Bradbury will develop over time into a
well rounded player, but we’ve ran into a few tough defenses to start his career
with.
I think my long term plans would revolve around Keeping
Zimmer, Kubiak, and Stefanski. Don’t
care about Spielman either way. I want
to see the offense have a year 2 in a system.
Personnel-wise, I would draft a QB and OL with our top 2 picks. Focus on upgrading the OLine. We have to keep working on it until its top
half of the league in run and pass. Start
Cousins and let the QB learn for a while.
If I was Zimmer, I would focus all my efforts on being competitive in
these big road games that we seem to wilt in.
I would also try to work on bringing in tone setters. Guys who have that winners mentality.
Total shitshow by cousins---yes he isn't getting alot of time but where is the hot route when things break down.
effin case daniels knew enough to go to the hot routes
Quote: @MarkSP18 said:
This team is on it's 4th OC and system in 4 years.Last year, with Cook out 6 of the first 8 weeks, the offense was still very productive and Thielen was setting records.But noooo, Zimmer wanted to run the dinosaur offense.So they fire JDF, who is now helping Minshew in Jacksonville, and promote Stefanski who has to be a "yes" man.
Is it any wonder the skill players are upset?They are just high paid decoys.Cousins has thrown 99 passes in 4 games and people complain if he misses a deep one that has a 50% or less chance of success.
The Vikings should use Cook like the Steelers used Bell and throw him more passes.They should never have him in to block because he is terrible at pass pro.He got blasted on the one play where Kirk fumbled. That still is on Kirk but very very few posters mention Cook's whiff.
Maybe Cousins is not the answer? OK.
But changing the OC and system every year is worse.
Yup. I said this some four or five weeks ago. But hey, we dont watch the players during practice. Games dont matter practice is where its at.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ pattersaur said:
I don't know if Cousins has regressed or if he's still the same but it's pretty clear that whoever is in charge in Minnesota (it's been a revolving door on the offensive side), they aren't developing QBs very well.
As far as "blowing the thing up"... 100% NO!
A good QB could take this team, even with a bad o-line, to the Super Bowl. Look at the NY Giants. They put Daniel Jones in instead of Eli and they're a completely different team now. By swapping out one player (And they lost Barkley!).
Carolina is 2-0 with Kyle Allen, instead of an injured Cam Newton.
Gardner Minshew in Jacksonville!
None of these 3 teams are likely going to the Super Bowl but I'm just illustrating how you can swap one player and your entire fortunes can change.
We don't need a big roster churn, we need a good quarterback.
Sure - IN THEORY. If a great QB could step into this team next year, they could improve.
But wasn't that the idea of acquiring Kirk Cousins? Wasn't it the idea of acquiring Sam Bradford?
Other teams don't give up good QBs very often. Who do you think can step in? Sean Mannion? Maybe Eli Manning???
Our GM has tried to pick up a veteran QB, twice - more if you count Ponder, Bridgewater, Cassel, McNabb, TJack...
Time to draft a QB, and that means we use up another year or two of a roster that's aging.
Since Spielman isn't good at picking QBs, we need to move on from him.
Oh I absolutely agree. I'm all for drafting someone and if we don't I'll be pissed. I'm just saying we don't need to overhaul the whole roster in order to be a better team, like some seem to be suggesting or open too.
QB/OL/OL/WR/OL should be our draft this year. If the defense suffers because of that well, at least it'll be a new brand of suffering and not the same old pain.
Quote: @pattersaur said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ pattersaur said:
I don't know if Cousins has regressed or if he's still the same but it's pretty clear that whoever is in charge in Minnesota (it's been a revolving door on the offensive side), they aren't developing QBs very well.
As far as "blowing the thing up"... 100% NO!
A good QB could take this team, even with a bad o-line, to the Super Bowl. Look at the NY Giants. They put Daniel Jones in instead of Eli and they're a completely different team now. By swapping out one player (And they lost Barkley!).
Carolina is 2-0 with Kyle Allen, instead of an injured Cam Newton.
Gardner Minshew in Jacksonville!
None of these 3 teams are likely going to the Super Bowl but I'm just illustrating how you can swap one player and your entire fortunes can change.
We don't need a big roster churn, we need a good quarterback.
Sure - IN THEORY. If a great QB could step into this team next year, they could improve.
But wasn't that the idea of acquiring Kirk Cousins? Wasn't it the idea of acquiring Sam Bradford?
Other teams don't give up good QBs very often. Who do you think can step in? Sean Mannion? Maybe Eli Manning???
Our GM has tried to pick up a veteran QB, twice - more if you count Ponder, Bridgewater, Cassel, McNabb, TJack...
Time to draft a QB, and that means we use up another year or two of a roster that's aging.
Since Spielman isn't good at picking QBs, we need to move on from him.
Oh I absolutely agree. I'm all for drafting someone and if we don't I'll be pissed. I'm just saying we don't need to overhaul the whole roster in order to be a better team, like some seem to be suggesting or open too.
QB/OL/OL/WR/OL should be our draft this year. If the defense suffers because of that well, at least it'll be a new brand of suffering and not the same old pain.
they need to move on from some contracts that dont fit a 2year timeline to get a new QB and OL (as well as HC) in place and up to speed. They need to use those older players to generate some draft capital as well as the added cap relief to fill some holes with young free agents coming off their rookie deals. It would suck, but what is the point of keeping a few of those guys around for except they will help us win 8 games next year and screw up another draft.
Quote: @silverjoel said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
This team is on it's 4th OC and system in 4 years.Last year, with Cook out 6 of the first 8 weeks, the offense was still very productive and Thielen was setting records.But noooo, Zimmer wanted to run the dinosaur offense.So they fire JDF, who is now helping Minshew in Jacksonville, and promote Stefanski who has to be a "yes" man.
Is it any wonder the skill players are upset?They are just high paid decoys.Cousins has thrown 99 passes in 4 games and people complain if he misses a deep one that has a 50% or less chance of success.
The Vikings should use Cook like the Steelers used Bell and throw him more passes.They should never have him in to block because he is terrible at pass pro.He got blasted on the one play where Kirk fumbled. That still is on Kirk but very very few posters mention Cook's whiff.
Maybe Cousins is not the answer? OK.
But changing the OC and system every year is worse.
Cook is leading the Vikings with 15 receptions. That's 23.4% of the Vikings' completions (15/64). How much more do you want?
IDK. His first 5 carries were 2 yards, 1 yard, no gain, no gain, and 1 yard. His next 2 carries are 4 and 3 yards.
That was the first two drives.
I would like to see them recognize that they are getting whupped up front.
The next time they play the Bears I would not call any runs at the start of the game.
It would be short passes, misdirection type plays, or anything to get 3 to 4 yards a play.
Then, maybe I try a run or two.
When Hicks gets back they are going to be in a world of hurt.
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