Quote: @Bullazin said:
http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2019jwilliams.php
jonahs scouting report from charlie campbell. Not a sexy pick but perhaps the right one if he falls to plug in at LG and go
That's personally my though as well. He eliminates the need with no question marks. I do think Jonah will probably be a better pro than a lot of people are giving him credit for as well. Although he lacks length he is so technically sound it more than makes up for it.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@ Bullazin said:
I think Reiff could be an elite LG. He is so much better than Remmers ever could dream to be. He has great length anchor and his feet are still good. He is a man in run blocking. The point is as FSU says, can he stay healthy. I see some are backing off their Lindstrom at 18. I would jump for joy if he was there at 50
I'm not... Dillard is the only pure OT prospect I'd take at 18. I doubt he falls that far and if he doesn't, I would take Lindstrom at 18.
Look at all the teams around the league that struggle to field a good OL and how few good OL make it to free agency...
A first round pick is supposed to be a Day 1 starter... Lindstrom would be that so what does it matter if we get him at 18 or 25 or 40? He's a perfect scheme fit and has some good film out there that shows a high floor.
I said the same thing about Cody Whitehair a couple years ago and he's been a very good starter since his rookie season.
Um, whoa. Lindstrom doesn't look any better to me than the currently over-drafted Ragnow or Price from last year. High floor, low ceiling guy.
Pick him at 18 and you just might be repeating reaches like Ponder or Treadwell.
I'm not alone in having a late 1st early 2nd grade on him. You can't gamble on him making it to #50 for sure. But 18? No sir.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
Um, whoa. Lindstrom doesn't look any better to me than the currently over-drafted Ragnow or Price from last year. High floor, low ceiling guy.
Pick him at 18 and you just might be repeating reaches like Ponder or Treadwell.
I'm not alone in having a late 1st early 2nd grade on him. You can't gamble on him making it to #50 for sure. But 18? No sir.
That's a stretch to compare him to Ponder or Treadwell, FSU... is it a bit high to take Lindstrom? Probably... but he won't be there anywhere near 50 unless I'm completely wrong on the guy. I'm expecting Jonah Williams and Dillard to be gone before 18 and if that's the case... I would grab a guy like Lindstrom if we're looking for an athletic ZB OG that has the size, arm length, and anchor to play for us right away in the NFL.
If you haven't noticed, there is crappy line play across the league and OL are going earlier than ever now-a-days... who cares if you take him at 18, 25, or 40? Obviously, it would be great to trade back, get an extra pick, and still get your guy... but if the Vikings can't move back, I would absolutely take him there. If he's a good player and helps stabilize a unit that has been this team's Achilles heel, that's a great pick and worthy of a 1st rounder.
As to Ragnow and Price (since you've been offering those two up as sacrificial lambs in multiple threads)... Ragnow was a very good C prospect that the Lions decided to move to LG... he had an up-and-down season, but I guess I'm not surprised since he his best position is probably at the pivot. Price had the pec injury in the offseason and then hurt his foot or something and missed some time... the guy wasn't completely healthy and it's tough for a rookie to play well under those circumstances. Bottom line, it's way too early to call those two "busts" and offer them up as examples of two guys being over-drafted.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@ FSUVike said:
Um, whoa. Lindstrom doesn't look any better to me than the currently over-drafted Ragnow or Price from last year. High floor, low ceiling guy.
Pick him at 18 and you just might be repeating reaches like Ponder or Treadwell.
I'm not alone in having a late 1st early 2nd grade on him. You can't gamble on him making it to #50 for sure. But 18? No sir.
That's a stretch to compare him to Ponder or Treadwell, FSU... is it a bit high to take Lindstrom? Probably... but he won't be there anywhere near 50 unless I'm completely wrong on the guy. I'm expecting Jonah Williams and Dillard to be gone before 18 and if that's the case... I would grab a guy like Lindstrom if we're looking for an athletic ZB OG that has the size, arm length, and anchor to play for us right away in the NFL.
If you haven't noticed, there is crappy line play across the league and OL are going earlier than ever now-a-days... who cares if you take him at 18, 25, or 40? Obviously, it would be great to trade back, get an extra pick, and still get your guy... but if the Vikings can't move back, I would absolutely take him there. If he's a good player and helps stabilize a unit that has been this team's Achilles heel, that's a great pick and worthy of a 1st rounder.
As to Ragnow and Price (since you've been offering those two up as sacrificial lambs in multiple threads)... Ragnow was a very good C prospect that the Lions decided to move to LG... he had an up-and-down season, but I guess I'm not surprised since he his best position is probably at the pivot. Price had the pec injury in the offseason and then hurt his foot or something and missed some time... the guy wasn't completely healthy and it's tough for a rookie to play well under those circumstances. Bottom line, it's way too early to call those two "busts" and offer them up as examples of two guys being over-drafted.
I'm not as high on LIndstrom as you, Wet, but I agree that he will probably go somewhere between 18 and 50. If the Vikings love him, they might as well take him, or trade down and take him. If we do not take an OL at 18, I worry we're going to be staring at a bare cupboard at 50.
Also agree that it's too early to say anything at all about Ragnow and Price. Ragnow started slow, like all of the rookie linemen, even McGlinchey, Nelson and Hernandez, but came on strong. And Price was dealing with an ankle injury.
I wouldn't take Lindstrom ahead of Williams, Taylor, Ford, Dillard, Risner or Bradbury, but he's right after that group.
My bold prediction is that Garrett Bradbury will be the best lineman from this draft, followed by Cody Ford and Dalton Risner.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ Bullazin said:
I think Reiff could be an elite LG. He is so much better than Remmers ever could dream to be. He has great length anchor and his feet are still good. He is a man in run blocking. The point is as FSU says, can he stay healthy. I see some are backing off their Lindstrom at 18. I would jump for joy if he was there at 50
I'm not... Dillard is the only pure OT prospect I'd take at 18. I doubt he falls that far and if he doesn't, I would take Lindstrom at 18.
Look at all the teams around the league that struggle to field a good OL and how few good OL make it to free agency...
A first round pick is supposed to be a Day 1 starter... Lindstrom would be that so what does it matter if we get him at 18 or 25 or 40? He's a perfect scheme fit and has some good film out there that shows a high floor.
I said the same thing about Cody Whitehair a couple years ago and he's been a very good starter since his rookie season.
Um, whoa. Lindstrom doesn't look any better to me than the currently over-drafted Ragnow or Price from last year. High floor, low ceiling guy.
Pick him at 18 and you just might be repeating reaches like Ponder or Treadwell.
I'm not alone in having a late 1st early 2nd grade on him. You can't gamble on him making it to #50 for sure. But 18? No sir.
Ponder was a reach, but Treadwell wasn't. There were a lot of boards that had him higher than where we took him.
I'd happily accept the offerings of Price and Ragnow if they were available to the Vikings. In fact, I'd be doing a happy dance. We are all clamoring for this instant upgrade rookie starter to come in and change things instantly on our line. But we have to know, or at least acknowledge, there's a far better chance that the rookie will come in, struggle to adjust, get his ass whooped fairly regularly and leave us all wondering if the team made a terrible assessment of the player once again. The Vikings are in the same spot most NFL teams are. There just aren't enough high end OL guys out there anymore, coming directly from college. I'd guess if we went through the league and looked at each teams lineup, we'd see that the vast majority of teams have big voids on their OL. We act like it's just us, when in fact it's an epidemic around the league. Sure, there's a couple of teams that have their lines pretty well squared away, but they are not the norm. Not by a long shot. At the same time, I'm not on board with reaching 20 picks back, of my best player available still on the board, for a player in a position of need, in the first round. Rounds 4-7 sure, roll the dice. But not up top. I'd love to have Lindstrom on the team, but it would have to be in the 2nd.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ Wetlander said:
@ FSUVike said:
Um, whoa. Lindstrom doesn't look any better to me than the currently over-drafted Ragnow or Price from last year. High floor, low ceiling guy.
Pick him at 18 and you just might be repeating reaches like Ponder or Treadwell.
I'm not alone in having a late 1st early 2nd grade on him. You can't gamble on him making it to #50 for sure. But 18? No sir.
That's a stretch to compare him to Ponder or Treadwell, FSU... is it a bit high to take Lindstrom? Probably... but he won't be there anywhere near 50 unless I'm completely wrong on the guy. I'm expecting Jonah Williams and Dillard to be gone before 18 and if that's the case... I would grab a guy like Lindstrom if we're looking for an athletic ZB OG that has the size, arm length, and anchor to play for us right away in the NFL.
If you haven't noticed, there is crappy line play across the league and OL are going earlier than ever now-a-days... who cares if you take him at 18, 25, or 40? Obviously, it would be great to trade back, get an extra pick, and still get your guy... but if the Vikings can't move back, I would absolutely take him there. If he's a good player and helps stabilize a unit that has been this team's Achilles heel, that's a great pick and worthy of a 1st rounder.
As to Ragnow and Price (since you've been offering those two up as sacrificial lambs in multiple threads)... Ragnow was a very good C prospect that the Lions decided to move to LG... he had an up-and-down season, but I guess I'm not surprised since he his best position is probably at the pivot. Price had the pec injury in the offseason and then hurt his foot or something and missed some time... the guy wasn't completely healthy and it's tough for a rookie to play well under those circumstances. Bottom line, it's way too early to call those two "busts" and offer them up as examples of two guys being over-drafted.
I'm not as high on LIndstrom as you, Wet, but I agree that he will probably go somewhere between 18 and 50. If the Vikings love him, they might as well take him, or trade down and take him. If we do not take an OL at 18, I worry we're going to be staring at a bare cupboard at 50.
Also agree that it's too early to say anything at all about Ragnow and Price. Ragnow started slow, like all of the rookie linemen, even McGlinchey, Nelson and Hernandez, but came on strong. And Price was dealing with an ankle injury.
I wouldn't take Lindstrom ahead of Williams, Taylor, Ford, Dillard, Risner or Bradbury, but he's right after that group.
My bold prediction is that Garrett Bradbury will be the best lineman from this draft, followed by Cody Ford and Dalton Risner.
After getting through most of the lineman I've changed my tune on Bradbury. If Taylor, Williams, and Dillard are gone I would probably take him over Cody Ford although that's debatable. They'd lack some size but he is a plug and play center with very limited risk and high ceiling due to his athleticism. Throw him at center and push Elflein over to LG or vice-versa.
A line of Reiff - Elflein - Bradbury - Kleine - O'Neill can get the job done. Use a 3rd/4th round pick to add depth behind Collins & Rashod Hill who would currently be the next two guys up. It doesn't necessarily "transform" the line but if they aren't at least middle of the pack with good coaching I'd be surprised.
I go by my own rankings and just didn't have most of the guys taken in the 1st as being any better than Elf.
When the Cowboys were spending 1st Round picks they were getting Elite or at least perennial near All Pro type Linemen.
I didn't see anywhere near that kind of upside with Miller, Ragnow, or Price. Serviceable with upside? Sure. Other than Nelson and to a lesser extent McGlinchey and hopefully Wynn I just didn't see it and still don't.
Of course they can all develop. Well, maybe not Miller. That was a reach. But I expect more out of a 1st Round pick. That's just me.
And I don't like building my roster by taking the say 30th ranked player at 18 because I have a huge need. I like Lindstrom and would jump for joy if Rick slid back to the mid-20s and snagged him as now you're talking about over-drafting by not as big a margin while adding more picks. Sign me up for that every time.
But unlike most I think at least 1 of Dillard and Williams are available at 18. Too many Blue Chip Defenders for teams that watched Defenses get shredded for the first half of last year. And too many QB needy teams that will over-reach for Lock and maybe that kid from Duke.
I personally believe that this O-Line group is deeper than last year's group. No Quenton Nelson, but a lot more guys that can Start from Day 1. At 18 I feel like we fans can be greedy enough to expect more than just a Day 1 Starter, though.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
I'm not as high on LIndstrom as you, Wet, but I agree that he will probably go somewhere between 18 and 50. If the Vikings love him, they might as well take him, or trade down and take him. If we do not take an OL at 18, I worry we're going to be staring at a bare cupboard at 50.
Also agree that it's too early to say anything at all about Ragnow and Price. Ragnow started slow, like all of the rookie linemen, even McGlinchey, Nelson and Hernandez, but came on strong. And Price was dealing with an ankle injury.
I wouldn't take Lindstrom ahead of Williams, Taylor, Ford, Dillard, Risner or Bradbury, but he's right after that group.
My bold prediction is that Garrett Bradbury will be the best lineman from this draft, followed by Cody Ford and Dalton Risner.
Here's the thing... I'm not proclaiming Lindstrom is the best OL in the draft (seems like that is what people are inferring from my posts)... I just happen to think he is likely going to be the best OL available at 18 (expecting Taylor, Dillard, Williams, and potentially Bradbury to be off the board). I'm not all in on him, there are a couple guys that are projected to go early that I would be happy with.
I actually hope Taylor gets picked early... I'm not a big fan, I just see too many red flags. Ideally, Williams or Dillard make it to 18, but I don't know how likely that is unless there is a gigantic run on defensive players with a couple QBs, Metcalf, and one of the TEs are taken in the first 17 picks.
Either way, the Vikings should have the opportunity to get a good OL whenever they make their first pick (could and maybe should trade back). Whether that is Dillard, Williams, Bradbury, Lindstrom, Ford, Risner... it doesn't make a difference to me. The main point here is that it will be a major gamble to expect one or two of the top guys to drop to 50.
Just for reference... in 2016, there were 9 offensive linemen taken in the first 50 picks... in 2017 (bad OL group at the top in terms of # of projected Day 1 starters), there were 4 taken... in 2018, there were 11 taken in the first 50 picks. If recent history holds true, I would expect 9-10 of these guys to be gone before 50... that means Taylor, Dillard, Williams, Bradbury, Ford, Risner, Lindstrom, McGary, McCoy, and Little could be off the board by then... or heaven forbid Little is sitting there at 50... yuck...
Bottom line... the Vikings need to manuever themselves into position to get an OL with that first pick and go from there. It's the only position we need a Day 1 starter this season if you objectively look at our roster. This draft is deep enough at other positions of need (DT, DE, TE, WR) that we can address those positions on Day 2 and early Day 3.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
I go by my own rankings and just didn't have most of the guys taken in the 1st as being any better than Elf.
When the Cowboys were spending 1st Round picks they were getting Elite or at least perennial near All Pro type Linemen.
I didn't see anywhere near that kind of upside with Miller, Ragnow, or Price. Serviceable with upside? Sure. Other than Nelson and to a lesser extent McGlinchey and hopefully Wynn I just didn't see it and still don't.
Of course they can all develop. Well, maybe not Miller. That was a reach. But I expect more out of a 1st Round pick. That's just me.
And I don't like building my roster by taking the say 30th ranked player at 18 because I have a huge need. I like Lindstrom and would jump for joy if Rick slid back to the mid-20s and snagged him as now you're talking about over-drafting by not as big a margin while adding more picks. Sign me up for that every time.
But unlike most I think at least 1 of Dillard and Williams are available at 18. Too many Blue Chip Defenders for teams that watched Defenses get shredded for the first half of last year. And too many QB needy teams that will over-reach for Lock and maybe that kid from Duke.
I personally believe that this O-Line group is deeper than last year's group. No Quenton Nelson, but a lot more guys that can Start from Day 1. At 18 I feel like we fans can be greedy enough to expect more than just a Day 1 Starter, though.
You're basically just creating tiers of players like teams do. When teams say they picked the best available player it means they took the best player that fit their needs in the top pool of players left on their board.
Subject to still change, what it boils down to for the Vikings at #18 is if one of Jawaan Taylor, Andre Dillard, or Jonah Williams makes it. If they do, I feel comfortable thinking that is the pick. If not, they might pivot and go with one of the blue chip defenders that fall or Fant/Hockenson. To see the pick be Lindstrom, Risner, etc.. I would imagine they'd have to trade back into the 20's to make it palatable. The drop off after the three lineman I listed isn't significant but positional value comes into question G v. OT, the drop-off of the interior line talent in this class is also not steep and will last into the 3rd round.
|
