Too much volume in offensive playbook

[Guest]

Because Flip was associated with Pederson's offensive genious, we assumed he was a big part of that scheme's design and would bring that with him. What we see out of the Flip offense doesn't resemble any of that. He has been a large disappointment so far. 

[Guest]

How does one simplify run run pass...? 

[Guest]

@Vikergirl said:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25326...atform=amp&__twitter_impression=true

This is something I agree with completely. Keep it simple stupid. Anyone who watches the Rams offense at work should understand simplicity is king because it allows for more consistant execution. Also a great thing about running tons of plays out of the same formation is the fact you give the D the same look presnap which doesn't allow them to really know what you are going to do if you have 4 or 5 plays that are ran with great execution. But I hope Zimmer realizes that if you run the ball for no gain or a loss of yards on first down perhaps you shouldn't be running it as much or at all even. I always remember that MNF game in 2006 against the Patriots and they essentially didn't run the ball at all. You can win by not running the damn football. Short passes can control the clock too.

[Guest]

@StickyBun said:

@kmillard said:
I don't really get that comment. The teams that are successful on O appear to have volume in the playbook. Vikings still look like they cannot decide if they want to be the 82 redskins (Zimmer) or set up the run with the pass (JDF). I know they do not have a line that will wear people down so that throws out the 82 redskins scenario.

Me either. This sounds like a grumpy old man comment by Z that is a little out of touch. These are the kinds of things that concern me about Zimmer.

You guys must not watch the Rams offense very much. They are very simple. But they are amazing at what they do. They have great players all around. And they do mix the plays up but they run a lot of the same formations to make the D off balance. 

[Guest]

Did we get sold on a idea that Flip was going to be young and innovative like Doug?  Well to do that he might have to get a bit more assertive. I see a offense that reflects Zimmer not Pederson. I seen Pat do more with Case then Flip with Kirk. I keep coming to the notion that Pat had more free reign then Flip. Pat expanded the playbook as the year went on. Zimmer says he wants to shrink it. Who runs this offense? Pat had a resume of being both a OC and former HC. Flip might not have the same free reign Mike gave Pat. This offense seems to reflect Mike's personality. Which was why I never wanted Mike to have anything to do with the offense.

[Guest]

@suncoastvike said:
Did we get sold on a idea that Flip was going to be young and innovative like Doug?  Well to do that he might have to get a bit more assertive. I see a offense that reflects Zimmer not Pederson. I seen Pat do more with Case then Flip with Kirk. I keep coming to the notion that Pat had more free reign then Flip. Pat expanded the playbook as the year went on. Zimmer says he wants to shrink it. Who runs this offense? Pat had a resume of being both a OC and former HC. Flip might not have the same free reign Mike gave Pat. This offense seems to reflect Mike's personality. Which was why I never wanted Mike to have anything to do with the offense.

I agree. Zimmer might honestly be handcuffing DeFillipo a lot but forcing him to run more. If it is about winning perhaps they should try thinks that actually work. Even if they run the ball 0 times.

[Guest]

@matt4787 said:

@suncoastvike said:
Did we get sold on a idea that Flip was going to be young and innovative like Doug?  Well to do that he might have to get a bit more assertive. I see a offense that reflects Zimmer not Pederson. I seen Pat do more with Case then Flip with Kirk. I keep coming to the notion that Pat had more free reign then Flip. Pat expanded the playbook as the year went on. Zimmer says he wants to shrink it. Who runs this offense? Pat had a resume of being both a OC and former HC. Flip might not have the same free reign Mike gave Pat. This offense seems to reflect Mike's personality. Which was why I never wanted Mike to have anything to do with the offense.

I agree. Zimmer might honestly be handcuffing DeFillipo a lot but forcing him to run more. If it is about winning perhaps they should try thinks that actually work. Even if they run the ball 0 times.

I don't even know it's running to much or to little. It's just everything seems to have to be high percentage stuff. It's been the pattern with Zimmer's teams. The year Teddy got hurt what was his personal goal he kept repeating during the off season. I want a 65% completion percentage. What young QB has that goal?? One who's had it drilled into his head. It's Mike's team. I just wish he'd stay out of the offense with his vision. I don't know these mistakes are Flips fault or the team getting mixed messages.

[Guest]

@matt4787 said:


I agree. Zimmer might honestly be handcuffing DeFillipo a lot but forcing him to run more. If it is about winning perhaps they should try thinks that actually work. Even if they run the ball 0 times.

Forcing Flip to run more...???
Does the Vikings offense this season look like a Zimmer offense?  I would say absolutely not.  Zimmer's offensive philosophy is to establish the run, control the clock, and take care of the football (limit turnovers).  We've been extremely pass heavy in too many of our games and it hasn't resulted in many wins. 
Look at our losses...
Bills - 4 rushing attempts by our RBs and 55 passes...  we scored 6 points and lost in embarrassing fashion.
Rams - 13 rushing attempts by our RBs and Cousins was our leading rusher... 50 passing attempts.
Saints - 19 rushing attempts and 41 pass attempts.  Turnovers doomed us in this game, but we actually had good balance in the first half and should have went into halftime with a 16-10 or 20-10 lead if Thielen doesn't fumble deep inside the red zone.  We went pass heavy in the 2nd half and lost.
Bears - 13 rushing attempts by our RBs and 46 pass attempts.  Put up 20 points.
In all our losses (and the Packers tie), we've failed to hit 20 rushing attempts...


Now check out our wins...
49ers - 28 rushes (I've excluded Kirks rushing attempts in all these) to 36 pass attempts.  Good balance. Won by 8.
Eagles - 18 rushes to 37 pass attempts.  Close win by 2.
Cardinals - 28 rushes to 34 pass attempts.  Good balance again.  Won by 10.
Jets - 22 rushes and 40 pass attempts.  We stayed committed to the run and won by 20.
Lions - 21 rushes and 22 pass attempts.  Good balance.  Won by 15.
If you want a quick summary, we average 48 pass attempts and 13 rushing attempts in our losses (and tie).  That's a 78/22 passing to rushing split.  In our wins, we average 34 pass attempts and 23.4 rushing attempts.  That's a 59/41 passing to rushing split.  Much more balanced, but still no where close to the 54% and 51% splits we had in 2017 (13-3) and 2015 (11-5).
If anything, I'd say this offense has more Flip's fingerprints all over it than Mike Zimmer...  and it's pretty evident when we throw a lot, we end up losing more often than we win.
You need to have a balanced offense to win in the NFL.  The Rams, Saints, and Chiefs all have prolific passing games, but guess what...  they are ranked 2nd, 6th, and 8th in rushing this season.
I actually hope Zimmer tells Flip we need to run more and they figure out how to establish an effective rushing attack.  Whether that means changing personnel, formations, etc...  they need to get an effective running game going to take pressure off of Cousins and get this offense to the next level.

[Guest]

@Wetlander said:

@matt4787 said:


I agree. Zimmer might honestly be handcuffing DeFillipo a lot but forcing him to run more. If it is about winning perhaps they should try thinks that actually work. Even if they run the ball 0 times.

Forcing Flip to run more...???
Does the Vikings offense this season look like a Zimmer offense?  I would say absolutely not.  Zimmer's offensive philosophy is to establish the run, control the clock, and take care of the football (limit turnovers).  We've been extremely pass heavy in too many of our games and it hasn't resulted in many wins. 
Look at our losses...
Bills - 4 rushing attempts by our RBs and 55 passes...  we scored 6 points and lost in embarrassing fashion.
Rams - 13 rushing attempts by our RBs and Cousins was our leading rusher... 50 passing attempts.
Saints - 19 rushing attempts and 41 pass attempts.  Turnovers doomed us in this game, but we actually had good balance in the first half and should have went into halftime with a 16-10 or 20-10 lead if Thielen doesn't fumble deep inside the red zone.  We went pass heavy in the 2nd half and lost.
Bears - 13 rushing attempts by our RBs and 46 pass attempts.  Put up 20 points.
In all our losses (and the Packers tie), we've failed to hit 20 rushing attempts...


Now check out our wins...
49ers - 28 rushes (I've excluded Kirks rushing attempts in all these) to 36 pass attempts.  Good balance. Won by 8.
Eagles - 18 rushes to 37 pass attempts.  Close win by 2.
Cardinals - 28 rushes to 34 pass attempts.  Good balance again.  Won by 10.
Jets - 22 rushes and 40 pass attempts.  We stayed committed to the run and won by 20.
Lions - 21 rushes and 22 pass attempts.  Good balance.  Won by 15.
If you want a quick summary, we average 48 pass attempts and 13 rushing attempts in our losses (and tie).  That's a 78/22 passing to rushing split.  In our wins, we average 34 pass attempts and 23.4 rushing attempts.  That's a 59/41 passing to rushing split.  Much more balanced, but still no where close to the 54% and 51% splits we had in 2017 (13-3) and 2015 (11-5).
If anything, I'd say this offense has more Flip's fingerprints all over it than Mike Zimmer...  and it's pretty evident when we throw a lot, we end up losing more often than we win.
You need to have a balanced offense to win in the NFL.  The Rams, Saints, and Chiefs all have prolific passing games, but guess what...  they are ranked 2nd, 6th, and 8th in rushing this season.
I actually hope Zimmer tells Flip we need to run more and they figure out how to establish an effective rushing attack.  Whether that means changing personnel, formations, etc...  they need to get an effective running game going to take pressure off of Cousins and get this offense to the next level.

I think those numbers might be skewed by how the game turned out early on.  the team that has to play keep up will have to go pass heavy earlier in the game if they are already down by 2-3 scores by half time like we were against the Bears and IIRC Bills.  Also some teams just sell out to stop the run and force you into a passing attack,  especially when you have no OL to speak of.  I wonder if you break it down by half time score if you might find something a bit more telling than it being the game plan to pass first.

[Guest]

@matt4787 said:

@Vikergirl said:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25326...atform=amp&__twitter_impression=true

This is something I agree with completely. Keep it simple stupid. Anyone who watches the Rams offense at work should understand simplicity is king because it allows for more consistant execution. Also a great thing about running tons of plays out of the same formation is the fact you give the D the same look presnap which doesn't allow them to really know what you are going to do if you have 4 or 5 plays that are ran with great execution. But I hope Zimmer realizes that if you run the ball for no gain or a loss of yards on first down perhaps you shouldn't be running it as much or at all even. I always remember that MNF game in 2006 against the Patriots and they essentially didn't run the ball at all. You can win by not running the damn football. Short passes can control the clock too.

The Rams can run a dozen different plays out of 11 Personnel because the Defense has to play run and pass. If Gurley wasn't picking up 4 yards per carry the Defenders could key more on route runners and guys in motion.

Against Minnesota you can play pass on every down and stop the rush on the way to the QB. Just like in the AP days.

Teams running all this effective misdirection are successful because of the threat of the run. Same with multiple plays out of 1 formation. 

The Vikings can't run the ball with any consistency because the Line sucks. With such an important facet shut down how can we really judge D-Flip's playcalling?