Quote: @dadevike said:
Let's see if we can find some common ground at least on the premises. My premise are that:
(1) fining you to get you to do something (or to prevent you from doing it) is equivalent to forcing you to do it (or forcing you not to do it).
(2) kneeling during the anthem is a form of protest. It is speech and it is protected by the Constitution.
(3) the NFL and its member teams are not the government so they are not violating the players' 1st Amendment rights by fining them for kneeling during the anthem.
(4) as the employers of players, NFL owners have the power to suppress the players' speech without violating their Constitutional rights.
Given these points ....
IMO:
-that billionaire NFL owners have caved in to Trump or to the fans/mob is cowardly.
-an American forcing a fellow American to stand for the flag/anthem when they do not want to is un-American. It is a sad irony.
-I would be far less troubled if the NFL forced players to stand during the half-time show where the dog chases a Frisbee.
I know that Jimmy already answered your post, but I've got my own take on it.
"Caving in" to your fans is not cowardly. It is good business. NFL ratings are down 20% since Kapernick started his protest. Are you willing to give 20% of your income away, in order to make a point to your customers?
No one is forcing them to stand. They are only being forced to stand if they choose to come out for the anthem. If they want to "protest", they can do it by not being present. I REALLY do not know why this is a problem (from a logical standpoint). They players STILL have every right to protest the flag, country, etc.- by abstaining from the honoring of it. But by being in the locker-room, they are being kept from "shoving" their protest in the customers' faces. Out of sight, out of mind... and the players can still take pride in telling themselves that they refused to honor a flag/country that they do not love/respect (I'm going off of Kap's quotes, not any other players'- since I'm not even sure if they all know what they're protesting).
I don't remember alot of liberals supporting Tebow's antics (bowing in prayer after plays, before games, etc.). As a matter of fact, I'm quite sure that they were against it and told him to keep his faith to himself. What has changed? The "cause". Until we (as a nation) stop being so "tribal" ("It's OK when my side does it... but when you're side does it it's the worst thing ever), nothing that we are lamenting when school shootings happen is going to change. By they way, I didn't like Tebow's antics either.
One other thing (to get things back on track): someone earlier pointed out that the First Amendment did/could apply, since the stadiums were paid for with tax money (and other connections t the gov't). There may be some truth to that; but the reality is that the gov't has gotten its tentacles into EVERY aspect of our lives. According to this logic, almost no business could create their own workplace rules- without infringing on someone else's rights (since- by extension- most of us are all connected to the gov't in some way).
Quote: @pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ greediron said:
@ MaroonBells said:
OMG! You actually voted for the moron! LOL. Well, at least you're honest. I'll give you that.
Sorry you had to run a gauntlet of protesters to hear the idiot speak, but try to remember that those were the good guys. On one side we have a hater who retweets white nationalists, who called white supremacists "very fine people," and was heartily endorsed by the KKK. And on the other side you have people trying to stand up to that hate.
Maybe you should re-think which side you want to be on.
Just going to highlight that little bit o irony and leave it out there. Watching the behavior exhibited, you can't really believe that. Spitting on people, throwing liquids on people, punching them, assaulting them all reminds me of a previous era. But not in the same manner in which you allude. The white hoods have indeed been replaced, but not by red hats.
I don't condone violence. Violence only begets more violence. But I do think it's important to protest this man wherever he goes, if only to show the world that not all of us are so willing to let hate and white nationalism take root in America. Again.
But don't you see... that even describing the president (I'm assuming that that's who you're referring to) in that manner is increasing the hate/violence in our country? Just because the president does things you don't like, that doesn't mean he's "hate-filled" (or a white nationalist). I didn't vote for the guy... and I think he's an idiot. That being said, most of the accusations against him are COMPLETELY rooted in people's hatred for his policies, not for anything that actually is "racist" or "hateful". See, I felt about Obama the same way that alot of people feel about Trump. But you tell me: what's going to happen in our country if "we" continue to stir up hatred against people with whom we don't agree? Do you really think that "protesting" every conservative speaker (which is what many on the Left do, not necessarily you) is going to accomplish anything? Who are you trying to "impress" with your protests? You'll have everyone who agrees with you nodding their heads in agreement... and all the rest shaking their heads in disagreement. Nothing- other than greater divisions in our country- will be accomplished.
If you think it is important to protest against various conservatives, to show that you refuse to let their viewpoints take root... does that also apply to Pro-Life protestors who are lined up on sidewalks outside of Planned Parenthood, trying to prevent the deaths of other human beings?
Of course not. I have no problem with pro-life protests, as long as they're peaceful. I've said many times in the past that I would not even try to prevent Nazis, KKK or Fred Phelps demonstrations. That's the beauty of America. We have the right to let our voices be heard. Speech that isn't controversial doesn't need protecting.
And who said anything about protesting every conservative speaker. You more than anyone else should realize that this idiot has nothing to do with thoughtful conservativism. If he did then people like you (and George Will and Bill Kristol, the Bushes, et al) would've voted for him. He's a conman, a snake-oil salesman who's really good at stirring up the ignorant extremes of your party.
I think you said something before the election about Donald Trump that I agree with--that he could spell the demise of the GOP. We'll see how right you were in a few months.
Why Trump Inexplicably Wins and Wins
The NSA turns over ALL Intel to Trump. He has the nasty dirty goods on Everyone.
Nothing gets past AT&T's proprietary process for transmission of data across fiber optic and They contract solely and exclusively with The NSA.
NOT The CIA DOJ FBI or anyone else.
Its like shooting fish in a barrel.
He has an intel horseshoe up his a**.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ pumpf said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ greediron said:
@ MaroonBells said:
OMG! You actually voted for the moron! LOL. Well, at least you're honest. I'll give you that.
Sorry you had to run a gauntlet of protesters to hear the idiot speak, but try to remember that those were the good guys. On one side we have a hater who retweets white nationalists, who called white supremacists "very fine people," and was heartily endorsed by the KKK. And on the other side you have people trying to stand up to that hate.
Maybe you should re-think which side you want to be on.
Just going to highlight that little bit o irony and leave it out there. Watching the behavior exhibited, you can't really believe that. Spitting on people, throwing liquids on people, punching them, assaulting them all reminds me of a previous era. But not in the same manner in which you allude. The white hoods have indeed been replaced, but not by red hats.
I don't condone violence. Violence only begets more violence. But I do think it's important to protest this man wherever he goes, if only to show the world that not all of us are so willing to let hate and white nationalism take root in America. Again.
But don't you see... that even describing the president (I'm assuming that that's who you're referring to) in that manner is increasing the hate/violence in our country? Just because the president does things you don't like, that doesn't mean he's "hate-filled" (or a white nationalist). I didn't vote for the guy... and I think he's an idiot. That being said, most of the accusations against him are COMPLETELY rooted in people's hatred for his policies, not for anything that actually is "racist" or "hateful". See, I felt about Obama the same way that alot of people feel about Trump. But you tell me: what's going to happen in our country if "we" continue to stir up hatred against people with whom we don't agree? Do you really think that "protesting" every conservative speaker (which is what many on the Left do, not necessarily you) is going to accomplish anything? Who are you trying to "impress" with your protests? You'll have everyone who agrees with you nodding their heads in agreement... and all the rest shaking their heads in disagreement. Nothing- other than greater divisions in our country- will be accomplished.
If you think it is important to protest against various conservatives, to show that you refuse to let their viewpoints take root... does that also apply to Pro-Life protestors who are lined up on sidewalks outside of Planned Parenthood, trying to prevent the deaths of other human beings?
Of course not. I have no problem with pro-life protests, as long as they're peaceful. I've said many times in the past that I would not even try to prevent Nazis, KKK or Fred Phelps demonstrations. That's the beauty of America. We have the right to let our voices be heard. Speech that isn't controversial doesn't need protecting.
And who said anything about protesting every conservative speaker. You more than anyone else should realize that this idiot has nothing to do with thoughtful conservativism. If he did then people like you (and George Will and Bill Kristol, the Bushes, et al) would've voted for him. He's a conman, a snake-oil salesman who's really good at stirring up the ignorant extremes of your party.
I think you said something before the election about Donald Trump that I agree with--that he could spell the demise of the GOP. We'll see how right you were in a few months.
Not you (or anyone else in this thread- I think). I was just thinking out loud about all the conservative speakers (most of whom are rational, thoughtful people) who are shouted down every where they go. I know that you wouldn't do that (to anyone but Trump?), but lots of folks from "your tribe" do. I guess my response is more directed at them than anything.
I don't think this is a first amendment issue. But I stayed up last night to watch Enemy of the State (again)... and- my gosh- I can only hope that that's not how gov't actually operates (although I'm definitely thinking that it is). IF that's how the Patriot Act- and other "security measures"- are being used (something I was in favor of at the beginning), then I would definitely be "off-board" of it now. It truly frightens me to think of how many things might have been caused (and people killed) by the gov't... in order to achieve whatever their end was (including the simple goal of staying out of jail, themselves).
Everyone, Rep, Dem or otherwise know how spiteful he is against his long list of “enemies” & he has had a boner for the NFL since his USFL days and law suit against the NFL
I am impressed that he can stand for the anthem with that painful bone spur of his, quite courageous & patriotic especially on this Memorial Day Weekend
Quote: @pumpf said:
I don't think this is a first amendment issue. But I stayed up last night to watch Enemy of the State (again)... and- my gosh- I can only hope that that's not how gov't actually operates (although I'm definitely thinking that it is). IF that's how the Patriot Act- and other "security measures"- are being used (something I was in favor of at the beginning), then I would definitely be "off-board" of it now. It truly frightens me to think of how many things might have been caused (and people killed) by the gov't... in order to achieve whatever their end was (including the simple goal of staying out of jail, themselves).
There are somethings better left unknown. I know I guy who frets and talks about that kind of stuff alot. I've asked him. What can you do to stop it? If you can't control something the best thing is to not let it control you. Live your life and stop scaring yourself. Needless to say I don't spend much time with him. I've known him for 25 years though. Worked with him once and we live in the same area. When we pass on the street I'm polite. He's talked about his latest fears at times. I say gotta go pick up the grandkid. That's the end of that.
Quote: @suncoastvike said:
@ pumpf said:
I don't think this is a first amendment issue. But I stayed up last night to watch Enemy of the State (again)... and- my gosh- I can only hope that that's not how gov't actually operates (although I'm definitely thinking that it is). IF that's how the Patriot Act- and other "security measures"- are being used (something I was in favor of at the beginning), then I would definitely be "off-board" of it now. It truly frightens me to think of how many things might have been caused (and people killed) by the gov't... in order to achieve whatever their end was (including the simple goal of staying out of jail, themselves).
There are somethings better left unknown. I know I guy who frets and talks about that kind of stuff alot. I've asked him. What can you do to stop it? If you can't control something the best thing is to not let it control you. Live your life and stop scaring yourself. Needless to say I don't spend much time with him. I've known him for 25 years though. Worked with him once and we live in the same area. When we pass on the street I'm polite. He's talked about his latest fears at times. I say gotta go pick up the grandkid. That's the end of that.
In the end thats all you can really do. You have to live your life and protect your sanity. I remove the negative people and choose to focus on the positive. So many people grasp at whatever hate they can find to rationalize their own feelings. Put them on ignore and enjoy what you can. There is no changing them.
Quote: @Maple Surple said:
Everyone, Rep, Dem or otherwise know how spiteful he is against his long list of “enemies” & he has had a boner for the NFL since his USFL days and law suit against the NFL
I am impressed that he can stand for the anthem with that painful bone spur of his, quite courageous & patriotic especially on this Memorial Day Weekend
He is truly bitter about that. And thaf his lawsuit that got him $1 lol. He tried to own an NFL team but it will never happen. This isn't about patriotism. It's a show and it's divisive. But it's not surprising because that's his specialty. A draft dodger is not the one to look to about patriotism.
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