LOL!!!
I love the latest chapter (#12) being written for the "Ricky's EXCUSES Handbook".
Sooooo.... the Vikings were AWARE of the FACT that they would be drafting in the 30th slot in each round of the draft since the end of JANUARY, but only REALIZED that this meant 29 selections would be made PRIOR to their pick on draft night??!! THAT'S an "EXCUSE" ? Wow.
Too funny. I swear, if the Vikings had the 1st pick and fucked it up, there would be a legion of fans EXCUSING it because "Ricky isn't accustomed to picking that high!"
As for my thoughts on this draft....head scratching is how I'd describe it. But, we'll have to wait at LEAST 2 seasons to judge. By 2021 at the latest, the proof will be on the field ( AND in the record book) instead of on a fan board.
It is funny, however, how the "waiting" period theme only seems to come up in response to a critical/negative comment on ANY draft pick.
OPINIONS that the draft selection(s) were great, however, seem to be embraced, and even encouraged... but without any caveat about waiting to see what transpires on the field for the next 2-3 years before judgement. Interesting.
But then again, what do I know. Apparently 2 playoff wins since 2006 (actually 2005, but that was BS, Before, well, you know) makes an organization a "perennial" Super Bowl contender, or so I've read ad nauseam. I happen to think that playoff record sucks ass.
Yup, that whole ONE consecutive playoff appearance (and once in a lifetime miracle win) is the envy of championship WINNING teams everywhere.
Just prove it on the field in the PLAYOFFS. Hanging your hat on # of starters or "Pro Bowl" drafted is becoming increasingly meaningless with the current streak of playoff impotence.
The freaking Jaguar's had a MUCH more impressive playoff run than the Vikings last season, btw. Let's stop with all the self congratulatory celebrations and focus on wining a CHAMPIONSHIP.
Quote: @Wetlander said:
@ FSUVike said:
TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.
Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.
Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.
I don't think this was inexperience in picking this late... it was just a really weird draft with how some of these players came off the board. First time in how long that 5 QBs were drafted in the first round... then tell me the last draft where there were 4 OGs picked in the first round...
Most drafts will have a couple OTs go in the first and maybe 1-2 C/OGs in any given year, but to have four selected in the first round??? And then have 3 more C/OGs go in the first five picks of the 2nd round??? That's INSANE.
I really think that the Vikings were expecting at least one of Price, Ragnow, or Corbett to be there at 62. I also think they expected Wynn to be available at #30 and I have a feeling they would considered taking him there. When Wynn, Price, and Ragnow came off the board before their first round pick, I don't doubt for a second that the Vikings figured the next best OGs would drop into the latter half of the 2nd round.
They didn't... but I would say it was more of a strange draft than anything the Vikings did wrong.
So the Vikings were surprised that what had already happened round 1 happened again in round 2. They screwed up, period. They had a simple choice between a starting OG to fill an obvious hole vs. a dime CB, and took the guy who might play 20% of the time instead of the starter.
There are a couple of things dont sound right in all of this. If they were surprised then they misguessed. If they filled their second need first and werent able to fill their first need, they messed up.
I think corner was a secondary need but there was fewer of them so they took one first and then got exposed when the rest of the lineman went away.
Maybe its a hard lesson about how to pick when you are picking last. Get the guy you really need and want, FIRST. Get it right. Dont muck about.
Sure the CB is or will probably be a fine player but the starting RT is a more pressing need than a #3-4 CB. They guessed wrong and have to look elsewhere. Not much mystery.
Quote: @Poiple said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ TBro said:
We can spend the rest of the offseason arguing Rick's draft strategy. I know I could because I started this thread and I'm still not happy with his approach. I don't care how good your Corners are, without a good pass rush they will be exposed. We saw it first hand the last quarter of the season and definitely in the playoffs when Griff was hurt and the Pass Rush became non-existent. Is starts up front on both sides of the ball and I don't think Rick has ever placed enough importance on building an Offensive Line through early round draft picks. He has always prided himself into thinking he can outsmart everyone else and find value in the lower rounds. That was the old model that doesn't work anymore. Too many teams are investing their high draft picks on offensive line talent. What's left are prospects who more than likely won't pan out. I won't even begin to list the late round offensive line talent failures we've had since he's been here. For every Pat Elflein, there are 10 TJ Clemmings and Willie Beavers that never made it. Clearly a lot of you feel differently by defending the Hughes pick and thinking the other career backups and developmental players we have for offensive line will be able to get it done. I don't agree because we didn't do what we needed to do and that was upgrading the starting 5 with better talent in this draft for 2018. We are in a window to win now and need to show some urgency. I think he failed to do that this year with the draft by over-evaluating existing offensive line players with a hope and prayer model they will somehow miraculously improve into solid starters when they haven't show any signs they are capable to do so.
Our OL is not the shit show that its made out to be, yes at times Keenum made them look better than they were, but his damn holding the ball and waiting for his favorite target to come open created a fair amount of pressure as well.
Do you stay up late dreaming up new backhanded insults... I mean compliments? lol. some crazy insane shit ur smokin.
What's back handed about the truth? Seriously your love of case has clouded your perception of the past.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ Poiple said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ TBro said:
We can spend the rest of the offseason arguing Rick's draft strategy. I know I could because I started this thread and I'm still not happy with his approach. I don't care how good your Corners are, without a good pass rush they will be exposed. We saw it first hand the last quarter of the season and definitely in the playoffs when Griff was hurt and the Pass Rush became non-existent. Is starts up front on both sides of the ball and I don't think Rick has ever placed enough importance on building an Offensive Line through early round draft picks. He has always prided himself into thinking he can outsmart everyone else and find value in the lower rounds. That was the old model that doesn't work anymore. Too many teams are investing their high draft picks on offensive line talent. What's left are prospects who more than likely won't pan out. I won't even begin to list the late round offensive line talent failures we've had since he's been here. For every Pat Elflein, there are 10 TJ Clemmings and Willie Beavers that never made it. Clearly a lot of you feel differently by defending the Hughes pick and thinking the other career backups and developmental players we have for offensive line will be able to get it done. I don't agree because we didn't do what we needed to do and that was upgrading the starting 5 with better talent in this draft for 2018. We are in a window to win now and need to show some urgency. I think he failed to do that this year with the draft by over-evaluating existing offensive line players with a hope and prayer model they will somehow miraculously improve into solid starters when they haven't show any signs they are capable to do so.
Our OL is not the shit show that its made out to be, yes at times Keenum made them look better than they were, but his damn holding the ball and waiting for his favorite target to come open created a fair amount of pressure as well.
Do you stay up late dreaming up new backhanded insults... I mean compliments? lol. some crazy insane shit ur smokin.
What's back handed about the truth? Seriously your love of case has clouded your perception of the past.
love of case? more backhanded insults. Im wondering what your aze to vrins is. I give a man credit for doing a job well. There are a dew of you here that get creative with the truth just to fit your version.
Quote: @Poiple said:
There are a couple of things dont sound right in all of this. If they were surprised then they misguessed. If they filled their second need first and werent able to fill their first need, they messed up.
I think corner was a secondary need but there was fewer of them so they took one first and then got exposed when the rest of the lineman went away.
Maybe its a hard lesson about how to pick when you are picking last. Get the guy you really need and want, FIRST. Get it right. Dont muck about.
Sure the CB is or will probably be a fine player but the starting RT is a more pressing need than a #3-4 CB. They guessed wrong and have to look elsewhere. Not much mystery.
I think some people are getting confused about what was actually said... Stephenson said "There was a big run, obviously, I’ve never seen that many offensive guards go this high in the draft."
And Spielman had this to say "There’s not much talk or discussion on it at all, but I know sitting there watching [offensive linemen] peel off at the top of the second round, they were flying off the board quicker than any time I can remember."
The whole "surprised" aspect that keeps getting brought up wasn't a direct quote from either Stephenson or Spielman. That was conjured up by the author of the article. It's been said multiple times since the draft... this was a strange draft with so many C/OG prospects going in the top 50 picks. There were 4 in the first round alone and then another 3 taken in the first 5 picks of the second round. So 7 interior offensive linemen were taken in the first 37 picks of the draft. That is INSANE.
Let me say it again... THAT... IS... INSANE. Show me a draft where this have EVER happened. You'll probably need to go back 30+ years.
In a typical draft, you'll see maybe 5-7 interior guys gone in the first 100 picks. I don't think any of the guys taken in the 20's or early 2nd round of this draft are better prospects than Forrest Lamp, Pat Elflein, Cody Whitehair, or a host of others were in the last two drafts.
In 2017, there were no interior OL drafted in the 1st round. The first one taken was Forrest Lamp at #38, then Ethan Pocic at #58, Dion Dawkins at #63, Taylor Moton at #64, Pat Elflein at #70, and Dan Feeney at #71. The next interior offensive lineman wasn't taken until the early 4th round. So that's 6 interior OL taken in the first 100 picks. The run didn't start until late 2nd round and ended early 3rd round.
In 2016, you had C Ryan Kelly go #18 and OG Joshua Garnett go #28. These guys were better prospects than anyone besides Quenton Nelson in the 2018 draft. Then the next interior OL wasn't taken until #50 when Nick Martin came off the board. He was followed by C/OG Cody Whitehair at #56, C Max Tuerk at #66, OG Joe Thuney at #78, and C Graham Glasgow at #95. So that's 7 interior OL taken in the first 100 picks. The run didn't start until mid-2nd round and ended in the middle of the 3rd round.
In 2015, you had bust C Cameron Erving go #19 and decent starter OG Laken Tomlinson go #28. That's it for the first round... the next interior OL didn't go until #49 when OG Mitch Morse was drafted. OG Ali Marpet then went at #61, OG Jeremiah Poutasi went #66, OG A.J. Cann went #67, C Hroniss Grasu went #71, and OG John Miller went #81. So that's 8 interior OL drafted in the first 100 picks. After 2 first round interior OL were taken, the run didn't start until the mid-2nd round and ended in the early 3rd.
Just in the last 3 drafts, you would have expected some good interior OL prospects to be available at #62. I am willing to bet if we looked back at the last 10 drafts, that would be true as well. The way this draft went in the first two rounds is unprecedented with 5 QBs taken and 7 C/OG taken in the first 40 picks. That NEVER happens.
It was a strange draft. That's the bottomline. I guess we can keep ragging on Spielman and the Vikings coaching staff for not satisfying your desire for a 1st round pick at OG, but history shows those guys aren't typically drafted in the first round. Most are drafted in the 2nd-4th because there are typically QB, RB, WR, OT, CB, and pass rushers that are more valued positions and hence... get taken earlier in the draft.
Quote: @Poiple said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ Poiple said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ TBro said:
We can spend the rest of the offseason arguing Rick's draft strategy. I know I could because I started this thread and I'm still not happy with his approach. I don't care how good your Corners are, without a good pass rush they will be exposed. We saw it first hand the last quarter of the season and definitely in the playoffs when Griff was hurt and the Pass Rush became non-existent. Is starts up front on both sides of the ball and I don't think Rick has ever placed enough importance on building an Offensive Line through early round draft picks. He has always prided himself into thinking he can outsmart everyone else and find value in the lower rounds. That was the old model that doesn't work anymore. Too many teams are investing their high draft picks on offensive line talent. What's left are prospects who more than likely won't pan out. I won't even begin to list the late round offensive line talent failures we've had since he's been here. For every Pat Elflein, there are 10 TJ Clemmings and Willie Beavers that never made it. Clearly a lot of you feel differently by defending the Hughes pick and thinking the other career backups and developmental players we have for offensive line will be able to get it done. I don't agree because we didn't do what we needed to do and that was upgrading the starting 5 with better talent in this draft for 2018. We are in a window to win now and need to show some urgency. I think he failed to do that this year with the draft by over-evaluating existing offensive line players with a hope and prayer model they will somehow miraculously improve into solid starters when they haven't show any signs they are capable to do so.
Our OL is not the shit show that its made out to be, yes at times Keenum made them look better than they were, but his damn holding the ball and waiting for his favorite target to come open created a fair amount of pressure as well.
Do you stay up late dreaming up new backhanded insults... I mean compliments? lol. some crazy insane shit ur smokin.
What's back handed about the truth? Seriously your love of case has clouded your perception of the past.
love of case? more backhanded insults. Im wondering what your aze to vrins is. I give a man credit for doing a job well. There are a dew of you here that get creative with the truth just to fit your version.
screw you. you know that you have come to his rescue anytime somebody has said anything even remotely close to disparaging about keenum. go ahead and start that poll as was suggested by another poster. I am not alone in saying that case was far from perfect last season. I have said on many occasions that he played better than I expected, and even stood up for him in some instances, but I am not going to blow smoke and say that he wasnt part of the issue with our offense at times including holding the ball to long or locking onto targets. I am done with you on this matter, keenum is gone and 2017 is over.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ TBro said:
We can spend the rest of the offseason arguing Rick's draft strategy. I know I could because I started this thread and I'm still not happy with his approach. I don't care how good your Corners are, without a good pass rush they will be exposed. We saw it first hand the last quarter of the season and definitely in the playoffs when Griff was hurt and the Pass Rush became non-existent. Is starts up front on both sides of the ball and I don't think Rick has ever placed enough importance on building an Offensive Line through early round draft picks. He has always prided himself into thinking he can outsmart everyone else and find value in the lower rounds. That was the old model that doesn't work anymore. Too many teams are investing their high draft picks on offensive line talent. What's left are prospects who more than likely won't pan out. I won't even begin to list the late round offensive line talent failures we've had since he's been here. For every Pat Elflein, there are 10 TJ Clemmings and Willie Beavers that never made it. Clearly a lot of you feel differently by defending the Hughes pick and thinking the other career backups and developmental players we have for offensive line will be able to get it done. I don't agree because we didn't do what we needed to do and that was upgrading the starting 5 with better talent in this draft for 2018. We are in a window to win now and need to show some urgency. I think he failed to do that this year with the draft by over-evaluating existing offensive line players with a hope and prayer model they will somehow miraculously improve into solid starters when they haven't show any signs they are capable to do so.
he still needs to take the best football players when he does get to pick, clearly Rick (and many others) had Hughes rated higher than what was available at 30. we are hearing that a trade down for value wasnt available so he stayed put and got a potentially great football player. just because he didnt get the OLman that you, i, or some others thought he needed to take doesnt make his approach wrong. the draft didnt fall the way we wanted, but he still improved our team, and likely did a better job than if he had reached for an OLman, or taken a poor value trade down. In no way did I think he should have traded up in the first. we arent that deep that we can afford to lose another top half of the draft selection or an even higher selection next year.
Our OL is not the shit show that its made out to be, yes at times Keenum made them look better than they were, but his damn holding the ball and waiting for his favorite target to come open created a fair amount of pressure as well. they added a couple vets, and lost a couple vets, but also added a nice OT which should pay higher dividends long term than any G that was available at 30 would ever do.
I agree with you that they truly believed that Hughes was the best player available when they picked at 30, but it came at the expense of getting a starting lineman for this year. Not 2 years from now, this year. The run on lineman was obvious for all of us to see and they guessed wrong. Then Rick tries to justify the O'Neill pick by saying they didn't anticipate the run and picked the best O'Lineman available at #62. Not the BPA, but the best O'Lineman available which contradicts his own draft strategy. He gambled that there would be a starter at #62 even though it was apparent to all of us what was transpiring in front of our eyes. O'Neill is also a Left Tackle who I think they will leave at Left Tackle as they work on building his strength up to eventually replace Reiff and his big contract. I don't see the Vikings moving him to the right side of the line which is where we needed to upgrade our talent for this season. Williams, Daniels, and Hernandez were all first round talents that were available at 30. Vikings didn't like Hernandez due to scheme fit, but they did like Williams who would've have gone much higher this year had it not been for his injury plagued 2017 Junior season with the Meniscus Tear and Ligament Sprains in his left knee. He was a First Team All-American after his Sophomore Season and a higher rated prospect compared to Hughes on most Top 100 Prospect lists. I guess we will see what happens once the season starts but I'm not feeling good about the current state of the right side of our offensive line for this year.
Quote: @TBro said:
I agree with you that they truly believed that Hughes was the best player available when they picked at 30, but it came at the expense of getting a starting lineman for this year. Not 2 years from now, this year.
At the expense of a starting offensive lineman... you mean to say the Vikings were GUARANTEED a starting OG if they just took one of the guys that were left at #30?
This is where the whole argument falls apart for me... some of you are acting like we would have gotten a legit Day 1 starter at RG if we had just taken "Player X". There are no guarantees in the draft. None.
Quote: @TBro said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ TBro said:
We can spend the rest of the offseason arguing Rick's draft strategy. I know I could because I started this thread and I'm still not happy with his approach. I don't care how good your Corners are, without a good pass rush they will be exposed. We saw it first hand the last quarter of the season and definitely in the playoffs when Griff was hurt and the Pass Rush became non-existent. Is starts up front on both sides of the ball and I don't think Rick has ever placed enough importance on building an Offensive Line through early round draft picks. He has always prided himself into thinking he can outsmart everyone else and find value in the lower rounds. That was the old model that doesn't work anymore. Too many teams are investing their high draft picks on offensive line talent. What's left are prospects who more than likely won't pan out. I won't even begin to list the late round offensive line talent failures we've had since he's been here. For every Pat Elflein, there are 10 TJ Clemmings and Willie Beavers that never made it. Clearly a lot of you feel differently by defending the Hughes pick and thinking the other career backups and developmental players we have for offensive line will be able to get it done. I don't agree because we didn't do what we needed to do and that was upgrading the starting 5 with better talent in this draft for 2018. We are in a window to win now and need to show some urgency. I think he failed to do that this year with the draft by over-evaluating existing offensive line players with a hope and prayer model they will somehow miraculously improve into solid starters when they haven't show any signs they are capable to do so.
he still needs to take the best football players when he does get to pick, clearly Rick (and many others) had Hughes rated higher than what was available at 30. we are hearing that a trade down for value wasnt available so he stayed put and got a potentially great football player. just because he didnt get the OLman that you, i, or some others thought he needed to take doesnt make his approach wrong. the draft didnt fall the way we wanted, but he still improved our team, and likely did a better job than if he had reached for an OLman, or taken a poor value trade down. In no way did I think he should have traded up in the first. we arent that deep that we can afford to lose another top half of the draft selection or an even higher selection next year.
Our OL is not the shit show that its made out to be, yes at times Keenum made them look better than they were, but his damn holding the ball and waiting for his favorite target to come open created a fair amount of pressure as well. they added a couple vets, and lost a couple vets, but also added a nice OT which should pay higher dividends long term than any G that was available at 30 would ever do.
I agree with you that they truly believed that Hughes was the best player available when they picked at 30, but it came at the expense of getting a starting lineman for this year. Not 2 years from now, this year. The run on lineman was obvious for all of us to see and they guessed wrong. Then Rick tries to justify the O'Neill pick by saying they didn't anticipate the run and picked the best O'Lineman available at #62. Not the BPA, but the best O'Lineman available which contradicts his own draft strategy. He gambled that there would be a starter at #62 even though it was apparent to all of us what was transpiring in front of our eyes. O'Neill is also a Left Tackle who I think they will leave at Left Tackle as they work on building his strength up to eventually replace Reiff and his big contract. I don't see the Vikings moving him to the right side of the line which is where we needed to upgrade our talent for this season. Williams, Daniels, and Hernandez were all first round talents that were available at 30. Vikings didn't like Hernandez due to scheme fit, but they did like Williams who would've have gone much higher this year had it not been for his injury plagued 2017 Junior season with the Meniscus Tear and Ligament Sprains in his left knee. He was a First Team All-American after his Sophomore Season and a higher rated prospect compared to Hughes on most Top 100 Prospect lists. I guess we will see what happens once the season starts but I'm not feeling good about the current state of the right side of our offensive line for this year.
i was with you on wanting to see C/G or T/G in the first, but I dont think anybody outside of Nelson merited that high of a selection. Maybe Wynn with his T/G flexibility, I am fine with how this turns out. I think the team had a fallback plan in place when they took Hughes, hell they had to have one in place or they would have weighted OG much higher on their board. I am wondering why everybody is overlooking Compton and the philly guy, are they that shitty that their addition to the roster is completely ignored? It would have been nice to get more young affordable blood on the line, I doubt they are looking to replace Reiff anytime soon, I actually see them looking to replace Remmers before Reiff. I cant speculate on those others that they passed on, either way nobody can judge a draft until players get a chance to show what they can offer, and we dont know what changes to expect from Flipper so I am moving on and waiting to see what we end up with in Sept before I get to pissy on Rick for following his plan. I think the right side will be OK, as long as we dont get a bunch of injuries. Hill and Isidora should be improved with another offseason, and flipper showed that he schemes very well to cover up warts in his offense.
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