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Quote:The Vikings eschewed a safe pick at No. 30 overall — an offensive guard
to perhaps plug in and start right away in place of the retired Joe
Berger.
A "safe pick" at that point would have been a reach or a very poor fit.
And shockingly, Arif has a chart with lots of numbers and intense number crunching. And if PFF had Remmers as our best tackle, then that is more reason to doubt their accuracy on the offensive line.
I would think the Vikings have a little advantage over PFF as they “focus” on their team full time, while PFF judges all 32 teams watching tape.
They don’t have access to see the players day to day, including health concerns, practice squaders et al.
That and the majority owner is chris collinsworth.
Quote: @Maple Surple said:
I would think the Vikings have a little advantage over PFF as they “focus” on their team full time, while PFF judges all 32 teams watching tape.
They don’t have access to see the players day to day, including health concerns, practice squaders et al.
That and the majority owner is chris collinsworth.
Seriously? no wonder some of their stuff seems like inane blathering.
I read that they have very few people actually doing the grading as well. Seems like a lot of film for a lot of players for a lot of games for so few people.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ Maple Surple said:
I would think the Vikings have a little advantage over PFF as they “focus” on their team full time, while PFF judges all 32 teams watching tape.
They don’t have access to see the players day to day, including health concerns, practice squaders et al.
That and the majority owner is chris collinsworth.
Seriously? no wonder some of their stuff seems like inane blathering.
I read that they have very few people actually doing the grading as well. Seems like a lot of film for a lot of players for a lot of games for so few people.
ive never really thought to much of PFF myself. they are trying to do the impossible in that they dont know what is called, there is no way they can sit and watch every player on every play and be able to grade them out accurately...let alone rewatch the plays to make sure that they arent getting their assessment of the play wrong. its a cash register that rings from people looking for justification for internet takes IMO. Their results arent completely useless, but I certainly wouldnt stake my reputation on their grades.
Quote: @greediron said:
The Vikings eschewed a safe pick at No. 30 overall — an offensive guard
to perhaps plug in and start right away in place of the retired Joe
Berger.
A "safe pick" at that point would have been a reach or a very poor fit.
And shockingly, Arif has a chart with lots of numbers and intense number crunching. And if PFF had Remmers as our best tackle, then that is more reason to doubt their accuracy on the offensive line.
I don't think selecting someone like James Daniels at 30 would have been a reach. I get that Hernandez was not a scheme fit and there were questions on what position Connor Williams should play, but Daniels could have immediately been inserted to start at Right Guard and upgraded our OLine. Rick gambled and lost, and he even said as much about the unexpected run of Olineman in the 2nd round. The bigger reach was taking O'Neill at the end of the 2nd because he said he was the best O'Lineman available, but he certainly wasn't the Best Payer Available which contradicts Rick's "BPA draft strategy" he constantly talks about. He knew they put themselves into a position that they had to take Offensive Line with that pick because they didn't anticipate the value other teams had placed on Interior Lineman in this draft. Hughes could very well turn out to be an amazing player for us, but it was a luxury pick. There was depth at Corner in the first 3 rounds that Zimmer would've had a chance to develop. Hughes return abilities are a nice bonus, but the Kick Returner role in the NFL is almost irrelevant since they moved the kickoff spot to the 35 yard line. Hopefully he can replace Sherrels at PR, but we have been expecting that to happen for a number of years while he still holds on to that position.
PFF isn't perfect, and you can find plenty of examples where good players don't test out well in their grading system, but I think it's a useful tool to determine on the field performance.
What Rand suggests in his article is what a lot of us were upset about after this weekend. I view the first 2-3 picks in a draft as players who need to start and contribute right away especially for a team in the middle of it's "Championship Window". The Vikings came away with developmental players who will need time and coaching to see their full potential realized. There seemed to be a lack of urgency with these picks for a team that has a Super Bowl or bust mentality. When Miller went off the board at 15, and then Ragnow and Price in the early 20's, the run had already started but they chose to ignore it and add a Corner who won't start. Hopefully I'm proven wrong and I'm making a bigger issue out of this than what it is, but we didn't upgrade our starting 5 for 2018 when we had a golden opportunity to do so IMO.
Quote: @TBro said:
@ greediron said:
The Vikings eschewed a safe pick at No. 30 overall — an offensive guard
to perhaps plug in and start right away in place of the retired Joe
Berger.
A "safe pick" at that point would have been a reach or a very poor fit.
And shockingly, Arif has a chart with lots of numbers and intense number crunching. And if PFF had Remmers as our best tackle, then that is more reason to doubt their accuracy on the offensive line.
I don't think selecting someone like James Daniels at 30 would have been a reach. I get that Hernandez was not a scheme fit and there were questions on what position Connor Williams should play, but Daniels could have immediately been inserted to start at Right Guard and upgraded our OLine. Rick gambled and lost, and he even said as much about the unexpected run of Olineman in the 2nd round. The bigger reach was taking O'Neill at the end of the 2nd because he said he was the best O'Lineman available, but he certainly wasn't the Best Payer Available which contradicts Rick's "BPA draft strategy" he constantly talks about. He knew they put themselves into a position that they had to take Offensive Line with that pick because they didn't anticipate the value other teams had placed on Interior Lineman in this draft. Hughes could very well turn out to be an amazing player for us, but it was a luxury pick. There was depth at Corner in the first 3 rounds that Zimmer would've had a chance to develop. Hughes return abilities are a nice bonus, but the Kick Returner role in the NFL is almost irrelevant since they moved the kickoff spot to the 35 yard line. Hopefully he can replace Sherrels at PR, but we have been expecting that to happen for a number of years while he still holds on to that position.
PFF isn't perfect, and you can find plenty of examples where good players don't test out well in their grading system, but I think it's a useful tool to determine on the field performance.
What Rand suggests in his article is what a lot of us were upset about after this weekend. I view the first 2-3 picks in a draft as players who need to start and contribute right away especially for a team in the middle of it's "Championship Window". The Vikings came away with developmental players who will need time and coaching to see their full potential realized. There seemed to be a lack of urgency with these picks for a team that has a Super Bowl or bust mentality. When Miller went off the board at 15, and then Ragnow and Price in the early 20's, the run had already started but they chose to ignore it and add a Corner who won't start. Hopefully I'm proven wrong and I'm making a bigger issue out of this than what it is, but we didn't upgrade our starting 5 for 2018 when we had a golden opportunity to do so IMO.
reading my mind T Bro.
TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.
Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.
Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.
Quote: @Poiple said:
@ TBro said:
@ greediron said:
The Vikings eschewed a safe pick at No. 30 overall — an offensive guard
to perhaps plug in and start right away in place of the retired Joe
Berger.
A "safe pick" at that point would have been a reach or a very poor fit.
And shockingly, Arif has a chart with lots of numbers and intense number crunching. And if PFF had Remmers as our best tackle, then that is more reason to doubt their accuracy on the offensive line.
I don't think selecting someone like James Daniels at 30 would have been a reach. I get that Hernandez was not a scheme fit and there were questions on what position Connor Williams should play, but Daniels could have immediately been inserted to start at Right Guard and upgraded our OLine. Rick gambled and lost, and he even said as much about the unexpected run of Olineman in the 2nd round. The bigger reach was taking O'Neill at the end of the 2nd because he said he was the best O'Lineman available, but he certainly wasn't the Best Payer Available which contradicts Rick's "BPA draft strategy" he constantly talks about. He knew they put themselves into a position that they had to take Offensive Line with that pick because they didn't anticipate the value other teams had placed on Interior Lineman in this draft. Hughes could very well turn out to be an amazing player for us, but it was a luxury pick. There was depth at Corner in the first 3 rounds that Zimmer would've had a chance to develop. Hughes return abilities are a nice bonus, but the Kick Returner role in the NFL is almost irrelevant since they moved the kickoff spot to the 35 yard line. Hopefully he can replace Sherrels at PR, but we have been expecting that to happen for a number of years while he still holds on to that position.
PFF isn't perfect, and you can find plenty of examples where good players don't test out well in their grading system, but I think it's a useful tool to determine on the field performance.
What Rand suggests in his article is what a lot of us were upset about after this weekend. I view the first 2-3 picks in a draft as players who need to start and contribute right away especially for a team in the middle of it's "Championship Window". The Vikings came away with developmental players who will need time and coaching to see their full potential realized. There seemed to be a lack of urgency with these picks for a team that has a Super Bowl or bust mentality. When Miller went off the board at 15, and then Ragnow and Price in the early 20's, the run had already started but they chose to ignore it and add a Corner who won't start. Hopefully I'm proven wrong and I'm making a bigger issue out of this than what it is, but we didn't upgrade our starting 5 for 2018 when we had a golden opportunity to do so IMO.
reading my mind T Bro.
If you remember after the Hughes pick, I was trying to get you to calm down a little and let day 2 play itself out. I tried to justify the Hughes pick by suggesting they had already decided Remmers would move inside and they would add a starting RT in round 2 since there were zero tackles at 30 with a first round grade. Unfortunately, there were no starting Tackles left with our 2nd pick and all of the highly valued interior lineman were already gone. Your concerns turned out to be valid as they had zero leverage to trade up in the 2nd and had to wait to see what fell to them. I think O'Neill could eventually replace Reiff and be a fantastic starter for us down the road, just not this year which is why I came away feeling like Rick tried to outsmart everyone again and got burned.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
TBro, Daniels went 9 picks later and has many of the functional strength questions that O'Neill has.
Something nobody is taking about so far: this was a real learning experience for Rick and Mike. They aren't used to picking this deep in the Draft. And it showed.
Lesson learned for future years as I'm sure they will be in this spot again for the next 2-3 years and hopefully longer.
I don't think this was inexperience in picking this late... it was just a really weird draft with how some of these players came off the board. First time in how long that 5 QBs were drafted in the first round... then tell me the last draft where there were 4 OGs picked in the first round...
Most drafts will have a couple OTs go in the first and maybe 1-2 C/OGs in any given year, but to have four selected in the first round??? And then have 3 more C/OGs go in the first five picks of the 2nd round??? That's INSANE.
I really think that the Vikings were expecting at least one of Price, Ragnow, or Corbett to be there at 62. I also think they expected Wynn to be available at #30 and I have a feeling they would considered taking him there. When Wynn, Price, and Ragnow came off the board before their first round pick, I don't doubt for a second that the Vikings figured the next best OGs would drop into the latter half of the 2nd round.
They didn't... but I would say it was more of a strange draft than anything the Vikings did wrong.
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