Quote: @FSUVike said:
I think you guys are missing my point. Or I'm explaining it poorly.
When you're at the bottom of every round and the runs start at a position you have your eyes on with players you like you have to be ready to react.
Pittsburgh, New England, and....are there really any other teams always picking low? Anywho, they don't always wait out the run and go BPA. They will also move up as needed. Even though the cost is high.
I feel that when the O-Line runs happened in both o the first 2 Rounds Rick wanted to move up by was surprised by how early those runs came and unwilling to pay the price to move up.
I'm not arguing against his performance this year. As others !mentioned some of these kids didn't grade higher than Elf but still went in the 1st. And the team lost a lot of depth in FA that needed replacing.
But in future years the team should have fewer needs and Rick will need to recognize runs when they start to happen and be willing to expend draft capital to go get his guy, regardless of position.
A very understated point. I hear where you are coming from and it is a good theory as any here. But yes, with fewer holes, we could do with less picks. Or as Rick did this year, took more risks on high upside players.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ FSUVike said:
I think you guys are missing my point. Or I'm explaining it poorly.
When you're at the bottom of every round and the runs start at a position you have your eyes on with players you like you have to be ready to react.
Pittsburgh, New England, and....are there really any other teams always picking low? Anywho, they don't always wait out the run and go BPA. They will also move up as needed. Even though the cost is high.
I feel that when the O-Line runs happened in both o the first 2 Rounds Rick wanted to move up by was surprised by how early those runs came and unwilling to pay the price to move up.
I'm not arguing against his performance this year. As others !mentioned some of these kids didn't grade higher than Elf but still went in the 1st. And the team lost a lot of depth in FA that needed replacing.
But in future years the team should have fewer needs and Rick will need to recognize runs when they start to happen and be willing to expend draft capital to go get his guy, regardless of position.
A very understated point. I hear where you are coming from and it is a good theory as any here. But yes, with fewer holes, we could do with less picks. Or as Rick did this year, took more risks on high upside players.
I think if he had that 4th rounder that we lost in the bradford deal that he may have moved up, but in a draft that was full of plenty of "nice" players but only a few "special" guys, what were you wanting to move up for and how far were people willing to move up? that missing 4th rounder would have only moved us up about 3 spots, our 3rd rounder would have gotten us up to about 24, but were we really going to spend a 1st and a 3rd to get an OG that in a normal year would have been a 2nd or 3rd rounder? some are contending that the league is seeing the light in terms of how they are valuing OL and this is going to be a new norm that Rick should have foreseen. I say bull shit. this is a sign that this was a weak draft with OGs being one strong point and that we didnt have the draft capital to go get one when we had so many other areas of need. as far as why not taking one at 30... well taking Ponder didnt work out so well now did it? why reach with a premium pick when there are better football players available?
all these arguments are made with 20/20 hind sight. if hughes turns into something and oneil starts at LT in 2019 and beyond this will have been a homerun draft.
All I know is that the Vikings had a hole at right guard or right tackle.
The did need some corner depth. They also probably knew they would bring back Newman too.
I do not understand why Zimmer is unable to get a corner later in the draft and polish him up.
He is good with the first round corners. That is a concern for me and I know it is harder.
Isn't that his specialty? Coaching corners?
I really hated to hear Spielman say he did not want to touch the picks next year. WTF not?
He has at least an extra 3rd round comp pick coming for Keenum.
He also could get a few 7th rounders for Johnson, Stephen, and Brock or Lamur.
I like what the Bears, Saints, and Lions did. They moved up to go get their guy.
The Vikings have 6 key players 29 or older.
Griffen, Joseph, Sendejo, Reiff, Remmers, and Smith.
Building for the future is nice when you are not very close to getting to the Super Bowl.
The time is NOW. In 2 or 3 years several of these players could be declining.
The odds are not in their favor as NFL players start to decline at age 30.
But Rick Spielman wants to keep building for the future.
Great!
Meanwhile, the trophy case in Minnesota still does not have a Lombardi Trophy.
To me, the only job Rick has is to win a freaking Super Bowl.
Even if it is only one it will be more than enough for long suffering Vikings fans.
As an addendum, for those who are against trading future picks.
Why did he trade a 1st and 4th to get Bradford in 2016?
Was that an ALL IN move or was that just getting abused by Roseman (it was the latter)?
The team was further away from getting to the Super Bowl in 2016 than they are now.
But he wants to save his precious picks next year.
So he can trade down and accumulate more 7th round picks.
6 key players 29 or older is hardly and argument that supports trading away future draft picks IMO. Ricks job is to keep this team loaded both for now and the future, not pull a daniel snyder and put all his eggs in one basket for a one and done run at a superbowl.
it would be interesting to hear about all these proposed trades that people wanted Rick to make? how far up were they wanting to go and what were they wanting to spend to get there? it would have taken pretty much the rest of our draft, minus the 2nd rounder, to move up in the first to get into the OG movement. or dipping into next years pick it would have likely taken our 2nd rounder and more to move from 30 to 20. it didnt make sense then and it still doesnt to move up for a decent (not great) player.
Rick cant win with some people, he gets blasted for making to many moves, or reaching for players, but then when he doesnt move up and reach for a player he fucked up?
Um, Mark, half that great Eagles O-Line is 30 or near to it.
As for developing CBs, he's clearly looking for unfinished guys with big upside vs. polished guys that he can trust on an island that will play right away but have significantly lower ceilings.
Look at Jackson that GB picked up. Good player, questionable speed. Heard one analyst after another worry that he'll need to play with a lot of cushion because he lacks the speed to close on guys that get by him. Doesn't sound like a Zimmer guy to me in that nobody can teach speed.
But the fudgers will start him right away. And I bet the first time Adam or Diggs get behind him they're endzone bound.
It's frustrating to not get the instant gratification that comes with a kid who can start right away. But the payoff of having the better player in two or three years is worth it.
And the special ones like Hunter contribute right away.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
6 key players 29 or older is hardly and argument that supports trading away future draft picks IMO. Ricks job is to keep this team loaded both for now and the future, not pull a daniel snyder and put all his eggs in one basket for a one and done run at a superbowl.
it would be interesting to hear about all these proposed trades that people wanted Rick to make? how far up were they wanting to go and what were they wanting to spend to get there? it would have taken pretty much the rest of our draft, minus the 2nd rounder, to move up in the first to get into the OG movement. or dipping into next years pick it would have likely taken our 2nd rounder and more to move from 30 to 20. it didnt make sense then and it still doesnt to move up for a decent (not great) player.
Rick cant win with some people, he gets blasted for making to many moves, or reaching for players, but then when he doesnt move up and reach for a player he fucked up?
One thing not mentioned much is that Spielman said there was a run on offensive linemen that surprised him. But it wasn't over when they picked. Why didn't they pick Austin Corbett, the Nevada G/T who was one of the most polished line prospects available? He was picked #33; would it have been a shameful reach to take him at #30?
The drafting of Ragnow, Price, and Wynn was the BEGINNING of the offensive line run. Spielman could have seen it happening and realized he wouldn't be able to wait until late round 2 or 3 to get a decent lineman. Those 3 went 20, 21, 23, but then offensive linemen were picked at 33, 34, 37, 39, and 50. Apparently Spielman thought, "Oh 3 linemen were picked earlier than I expected, I'm sure the rest will still be there for me to choose at #62"...
I've never suggested he should have moved up; for one thing, I couldn't guess what the cost would be, and Spielman hates giving up quantity for higher picks. But he opened himself to criticism by saying the run on linemen surprised him.
How would everyone feel if our first 2 picks had been:
1 G/T Austin Corbett, Nevada
2 DB Justin Reid, Stanford
That's not projections, those were players available when we picked.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ TBro said:
We can spend the rest of the offseason arguing Rick's draft strategy. I know I could because I started this thread and I'm still not happy with his approach. I don't care how good your Corners are, without a good pass rush they will be exposed. We saw it first hand the last quarter of the season and definitely in the playoffs when Griff was hurt and the Pass Rush became non-existent. Is starts up front on both sides of the ball and I don't think Rick has ever placed enough importance on building an Offensive Line through early round draft picks. He has always prided himself into thinking he can outsmart everyone else and find value in the lower rounds. That was the old model that doesn't work anymore. Too many teams are investing their high draft picks on offensive line talent. What's left are prospects who more than likely won't pan out. I won't even begin to list the late round offensive line talent failures we've had since he's been here. For every Pat Elflein, there are 10 TJ Clemmings and Willie Beavers that never made it. Clearly a lot of you feel differently by defending the Hughes pick and thinking the other career backups and developmental players we have for offensive line will be able to get it done. I don't agree because we didn't do what we needed to do and that was upgrading the starting 5 with better talent in this draft for 2018. We are in a window to win now and need to show some urgency. I think he failed to do that this year with the draft by over-evaluating existing offensive line players with a hope and prayer model they will somehow miraculously improve into solid starters when they haven't show any signs they are capable to do so.
Our OL is not the shit show that its made out to be, yes at times Keenum made them look better than they were, but his damn holding the ball and waiting for his favorite target to come open created a fair amount of pressure as well.
Do you stay up late dreaming up new backhanded insults... I mean compliments? lol. some crazy insane shit ur smokin.
Quote: @Poiple said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ TBro said:
We can spend the rest of the offseason arguing Rick's draft strategy. I know I could because I started this thread and I'm still not happy with his approach. I don't care how good your Corners are, without a good pass rush they will be exposed. We saw it first hand the last quarter of the season and definitely in the playoffs when Griff was hurt and the Pass Rush became non-existent. Is starts up front on both sides of the ball and I don't think Rick has ever placed enough importance on building an Offensive Line through early round draft picks. He has always prided himself into thinking he can outsmart everyone else and find value in the lower rounds. That was the old model that doesn't work anymore. Too many teams are investing their high draft picks on offensive line talent. What's left are prospects who more than likely won't pan out. I won't even begin to list the late round offensive line talent failures we've had since he's been here. For every Pat Elflein, there are 10 TJ Clemmings and Willie Beavers that never made it. Clearly a lot of you feel differently by defending the Hughes pick and thinking the other career backups and developmental players we have for offensive line will be able to get it done. I don't agree because we didn't do what we needed to do and that was upgrading the starting 5 with better talent in this draft for 2018. We are in a window to win now and need to show some urgency. I think he failed to do that this year with the draft by over-evaluating existing offensive line players with a hope and prayer model they will somehow miraculously improve into solid starters when they haven't show any signs they are capable to do so.
Our OL is not the shit show that its made out to be, yes at times Keenum made them look better than they were, but his damn holding the ball and waiting for his favorite target to come open created a fair amount of pressure as well.
Do you stay up late dreaming up new backhanded insults... I mean compliments? lol. some crazy insane shit ur smokin.
Put up a poll and see how many of us thought your boy Case would hold the ball forever at times waiting for his first read to come open.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ Poiple said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ TBro said:
We can spend the rest of the offseason arguing Rick's draft strategy. I know I could because I started this thread and I'm still not happy with his approach. I don't care how good your Corners are, without a good pass rush they will be exposed. We saw it first hand the last quarter of the season and definitely in the playoffs when Griff was hurt and the Pass Rush became non-existent. Is starts up front on both sides of the ball and I don't think Rick has ever placed enough importance on building an Offensive Line through early round draft picks. He has always prided himself into thinking he can outsmart everyone else and find value in the lower rounds. That was the old model that doesn't work anymore. Too many teams are investing their high draft picks on offensive line talent. What's left are prospects who more than likely won't pan out. I won't even begin to list the late round offensive line talent failures we've had since he's been here. For every Pat Elflein, there are 10 TJ Clemmings and Willie Beavers that never made it. Clearly a lot of you feel differently by defending the Hughes pick and thinking the other career backups and developmental players we have for offensive line will be able to get it done. I don't agree because we didn't do what we needed to do and that was upgrading the starting 5 with better talent in this draft for 2018. We are in a window to win now and need to show some urgency. I think he failed to do that this year with the draft by over-evaluating existing offensive line players with a hope and prayer model they will somehow miraculously improve into solid starters when they haven't show any signs they are capable to do so.
Our OL is not the shit show that its made out to be, yes at times Keenum made them look better than they were, but his damn holding the ball and waiting for his favorite target to come open created a fair amount of pressure as well.
Do you stay up late dreaming up new backhanded insults... I mean compliments? lol. some crazy insane shit ur smokin.
Put up a poll and see how many of us thought your boy Case would hold the ball forever at times waiting for his first read to come open.
why do you always talk like a punk?
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