Rich Gannon Weighs-in on Pack/Vike Rivalry & Cousins...

[Guest]

Cousins will be the highest paid QB for about two weeks.  Then it will be Matt Ryan, then he will be the third highest a week later after Rodgers.  Then by next season he will be about the 8th highest paid QB and two years from now he will middle of the pack.  Gotta pay to play!

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:
Totally unfair when people use a QB's win/loss record to criticize his talent as a QB. There are 22 factors involved in winning and losing. About 40 if you include coaching staff. I know some bring up Cousins' record against winning teams, but I think that's a little misleading. For example, before this year, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees both had losing records against winning teams. 

You are partly correct but is still has to be considered with your caveats.  Do you give Aaron Rogers and Brady credit for all their wins-of course they get a good share of it, Cousins isn't as capable of elevating the talent he has had, it's not like he is on a shit team just not an loaded one.  The QB and coach are probably the two most important of all the factors. Top flight QB's make WR's better and open up offenses-at least that has been used many times against the average QB's we have had and for QB's like Favre.   The fact that Kirk has played with a pretty good OL during his career and has had some WR's that were probably average or better (Jackson and Garcon and Reed when healthy), He had a fairly well regarded couple offensive minded coaches in Gruden and Shanahan but he hasn't gotten them to the playoffs and his reputation for crucial mistakes has to play a role in that.
Those are all PIECES of the puzzle that needs to be considered when figuring his value, yes he's a pretty good QB on paper but how good and will he elevate the team to the next level?  His inability to achieve anything yet has to at least give people a reason to look closer as a legitimate concern.

[Guest]

“I would tell you that for what it’s worth, I think they are similar players,” he said. “Cousins has more starts under his belt, although I think they’re similar-type players when you look at them physically and their characteristics. I don’t know that there is a significant difference when you look at what they’re going to be like in two or three years."

That is an interesting observation to me. And if you don't consider the win/loss record, Cousins becomes merely a stats guy. He puts up numbers but doesn't get the wins. And then it is argued he is doing more because he has less around him. Also say they sign him, how long does it take for him to connect with teammates and for them to connect with him? I am not really enamored with the guy but whatever. I don't have anything against him either. He isn't top tier or worth it but he will benefit from the market and lack of other quality qbs.

As far as Case goes, people say it was the weapons around him that made him succeed or it was the OL. Like Case wasn't the one rolling out, buying time or making the throws. I think he made the most of the opportunity. I think there is still room to grow. And I know he has his flaws as well but I think he gets less credit for the team success than he should.

[Guest]

@Vikergirl said:

Also say they sign him, how long does it take for him to connect with teammates and for them to connect with him? I am not really enamored with the guy but whatever. I don't have anything against him either. He isn't top tier or worth it but he will benefit from the market and lack of other quality qbs.

There's another angle that people keep raising - Cousins might not fit in, or its corollary, that Keenum is a beloved teammate, or he provides continuity. But remember: Keenum is a 1-year Viking who was not on the roster a year ago!! He signed almost a month into free agency, and we didn't really hear much about him until training camp when a lot of people argued he should be cut in favor of Taylor Heinicke. Six months later, he's "one of the guys". Sure seems like a good player, even newly arrived from another team, can fit in with the Vikings without upsetting the locker room.
These players are all in the same league, they came from different colleges and different states, they move between teams regularly, a lot of them know each other off the field. It's not a high school team of guys who played together since high school who are suddenly asked to accept the kid who transferred from the crosstown rival school.

[Guest]

@Vikergirl said:

As far as Case goes, people say it was the weapons around him that made him succeed or it was the OL. Like Case wasn't the one rolling out, buying time or making the throws. I think he made the most of the opportunity. I think there is still room to grow. And I know he has his flaws as well but I think he gets less credit for the team success than he should.

Agree and I think it is because Zimmer gave Case less credit or at least less acknowledgment all during his run .
The coaches have the inside scoop on all these guys, of course, and if Zimmer downplays Case's play with comments like lightening in a bottle or horseshoe etc...you can see why the fans feel the same way.

[Guest]

There is one BIG difference between Keenum and Cousins.  Arm strength.  Cousins can throw the long ball and Case simply cannot.  On almost every long pass thrown by Keenum last season one of four things happened and none of them are the right thing.  The one constant was that the pass was almost always underthrown, it was either: knocked down by the defender, defender interfered and no penalty, defender interfered and a PI was called or Diggs or Theilan made great adjustments and bailed out the poor throw.  What we rarely if ever saw was the receiver being hit in stride.  Its not only the long pass, Keenum got away with a lot of lob touch passes where he was once again bailed out by the receivers.  I like everything else about Keenum, his smarts, toughness and his leadership but his lack of arm strength is a liability.  Im not sold on Bradford because of his health but when you compare a better passer like Bradford to Keenum running  this same team the offense seems so much smoother and more dangerous.  

[Guest]

@Jor-El said:

@Vikergirl said:

Also say they sign him, how long does it take for him to connect with teammates and for them to connect with him? I am not really enamored with the guy but whatever. I don't have anything against him either. He isn't top tier or worth it but he will benefit from the market and lack of other quality qbs.

There's another angle that people keep raising - Cousins might not fit in, or its corollary, that Keenum is a beloved teammate, or he provides continuity. But remember: Keenum is a 1-year Viking who was not on the roster a year ago!! He signed almost a month into free agency, and we didn't really hear much about him until training camp when a lot of people argued he should be cut in favor of Taylor Heinicke. Six months later, he's "one of the guys". Sure seems like a good player, even newly arrived from another team, can fit in with the Vikings without upsetting the locker room.
These players are all in the same league, they came from different colleges and different states, they move between teams regularly, a lot of them know each other off the field. It's not a high school team of guys who played together since high school who are suddenly asked to accept the kid who transferred from the crosstown rival school.

Agree and nothing helps connecting more then winning.  If Cousins and the team win (like with Case) then there will be a bromance fast

[Guest]

@Jamie Demaree said:
There is one BIG difference between Keenum and Cousins.  Arm strength.  Cousins can throw the long ball and Case simply cannot.  On almost every long pass thrown by Keenum last season one of four things happened and none of them are the right thing.  The one constant was that the pass was almost always underthrown, it was either: knocked down by the defender, defender interfered and no penalty, defender interfered and a PI was called or Diggs or Theilan made great adjustments and bailed out the poor throw.  What we rarely if ever saw was the receiver being hit in stride.  Its not only the long pass, Keenum got away with a lot of lob touch passes where he was once again bailed out by the receivers.  I like everything else about Keenum, his smarts, toughness and his leadership but his lack of arm strength is a liability.  Im not sold on Bradford because of his health but when you compare a better passer like Bradford to Keenum running  this same team the offense seems so much smoother and more dangerous.  

I do think Cousins has the better arm but I don't want to downplay Case's ability to lob (negative) or add touch (positive) some of those really nice tight window throws.  

Two stats that I think are often overlooked in most QB discussions:

1 - Yards per attempt (YPA)

Remember when Sam led our dink and dunk offense and set the completion % record.  No knock on Sam at all with that OL etc.
Just pointing out that if you can be towards the Top in the NFL in completion % and also YPA then you are attempting and completing a lot of downfield throws.  Cousins has been Top 10 in both categories (in unison of course) for all 3 years starting.

I compare him to a guy that I thought was a dink and dunk passer coming out of college that has a cannon for an arm.  Derek Carr.  He ran a dink and dunk offense in college and that has translated to the NFL even though everyone highlights all QB's long TD passes he is not a very good/accurate downfield thrower and he doesn't attempt as many as most QB to begin with.

Carr's 3 years ( I will disregard Carr's horrible rookie year and only compare the last 3 for each player:

2015 - 61% completion percentage (23rd in NFL) with a 6.96 YPA (26th rank)
2016 - 63.8% completion (15th in NFL) along with the 18th ranked YPA of 7.03
2017 - 62.7% completion (14th in NFL) along with the 19th ranked YPA of only 6.79.

You need to be over 65% and over 7.5 YPA to be near TOP 10 in the NFL.  Cousins averages 65.5 Completion % and 7.73 YPA.

2 - other then YPA being overlooked the other stat is starts.  You have to be on the field to contribute to a game.

Cousins has started every game including their only playoff game - 17 games, 16 games, and 16 games.

Some really good QB's are injury prone and some are not.  Bradford has great ability but you can not pay big bucks and rely on his knee.  

Teams will pay guys like Cousins premium because he has great production and has not been injured.

[Guest]

I dont mean Keenums lack of arm strength as a total knock on him because he has found a way to compensate for it and be a NFL QB.  I worry about what he cannot compensate for and that is opposing teams defenses.  Defensive coordinators know all about Keenum now and realize there is not much of a downfield threat from him so they can concentrate on stopping the short to mid range passing game.  Bradfords record setting completion % year should almost be thrown out because of the horrible OL he had in front of him, he had no choice but to throw little dink passes because he was about to get killed.  Compare Bradford in 2017 (albeit a very small sample) with a decent line, he was throwing the ball all over the place and had the defense on its toes the whole time.  Then throw in the threat of Cook on top of the threat of the long pass, it completes this offense.  I look at it like this, Zimmer says and it has proven out that if the offense puts up 20 points they win because of the defense.  Case did a great job of doing just enough to get 20 points and the wins.  With Cousins running the show I think the 20 point plateau is so much easier to get too because of the added threat he brings that will translate to not depending on the defense so much and therefore a more balance team as a whole.    My biggest concern is that regardless of how great a season Keenum had and how great of a guy and how hard he works and all the positives of him (which there are many) he seems like a great guy and teamate, there is still a reason he has been a career backup so far in his career.  If the vikes resign him and he comes back to earth and plays like the old Keenum then the vikings are screwed.  With Cousins you know what you got.  To me he is just a safer bet, as long as they dont have to over pay for him.

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:
Totally unfair when people use a QB's win/loss record to criticize his talent as a QB. There are 22 factors involved in winning and losing. About 40 if you include coaching staff. I know some bring up Cousins' record against winning teams, but I think that's a little misleading. For example, before this year, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees both had losing records against winning teams. 

It's not unfair, its definitely something that has to be looked at, it shouldn't be the deciding factor though. Great QBs can lift bad teams to good records.  We have seen this happen in the past.