Quote: @Carl Knowles said:
Just when you think it can't get any worse that Pat Elflein's 60 PFF grade... Dru Samia lays an egg with a 30.5 PFF grade.
Dozier's grade on the left side is 49 which is much lower than his grade last year when he played on the right side.
Ezra has a very low bar in front of him.
All the same, I hope they don't put him in there cold turkey. Things could get ugly. After a particularly egregious play by Dozier (we should'n't have to wait long), throw him in for a couple series before the half, see how he does.
Moving decks chairs around the Titanic. I am far from convinced they have the right pieces to play with on OL.
That's a damning conviction of scouting, coaching.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
Moving decks chairs around the Titanic. I am far from convinced they have the right pieces to play with on OL.
That's a damning conviction of scouting, coaching.
Yep. That's all this is. Samia is a joke unfortunately. Elflein maintained his starter status for a reason, there's NOBODY better to replace him with. Reiff must be playing with a chip on his shoulder because he's been pretty damn good so far this year. The OGs on this team are woeful.
Quote: @StickyBun said:
@ purplefaithful said:
Moving decks chairs around the Titanic. I am far from convinced they have the right pieces to play with on OL.
That's a damning conviction of scouting, coaching.
Yep. That's all this is. Samia is a joke unfortunately. Elflein maintained his starter status for a reason, there's NOBODY better to replace him with. Reiff must be playing with a chip on his shoulder because he's been pretty damn good so far this year. The OGs on this team are woeful.
Look Rick is only in his 10th year as g.m. Did you expect an overnight oline miracle? Be patient, he will get a decent line built by year 17 or 18. I think. Maybe.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ StickyBun said:
@ purplefaithful said:
Moving decks chairs around the Titanic. I am far from convinced they have the right pieces to play with on OL.
That's a damning conviction of scouting, coaching.
Yep. That's all this is. Samia is a joke unfortunately. Elflein maintained his starter status for a reason, there's NOBODY better to replace him with. Reiff must be playing with a chip on his shoulder because he's been pretty damn good so far this year. The OGs on this team are woeful.
Look Rick is only in his 10th year as g.m. Did you expect an overnight oline miracle? Be patient, he will get a decent line built by year 17 or 18. I think. Maybe.
Its a seriously good accusation.
If they had a decent OL since 09? they'd probably have gotten to a SB by now and since Favre.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
Moving decks chairs around the Titanic. I am far from convinced they have the right pieces to play with on OL.
That's a damning conviction of scouting, coaching.
Agreed.
And then extend a QB to a large guaranteed deal behind an Oline that is missing 2-3 parts?
This team had a 6-year hole in offensive line talent acquisition. From 2011-2016, Rick Spielman's first 6 drafts fully in charge, he selected only 1 OL in the first 3 rounds, Matt Kalil. Our OL was weak every year in that stretch and was a primary need before every one of those drafts, but most years Spielman only brought in later picks like David Yankey, DeMarcus Love, Willie Beavers, or Tyrus Thompson.
No offensive linemen picked by the Vikings prior to 2017 are still on this roster. Guys from those drafts are presently 25-31 and should still be in the league and form the veteran core of most units on NFL teams.
Rick Spielman does not pick offensive linemen well, and he doesn't like to pick them. It's not just the draft: the only significant free agent additions on the line in that period were: Alex Boone, Andre Smith, and Riley Reiff. In other words: crap, crap, and average. The only reason we ended up with Reiff was because Matt Kalil turned down Spielman's extension offer - yes Spielman wanted to keep Kalil!! - so Reiff is basically all we have to show for owning the #3 overall pick in 2012.
I know Spielman's defenders will argue that he has reformed since 2017, because he has used a fairly high pick for an OL every year since then - Elflein, O'Neill, Bradury, Cleveland. OK, that's better. But I have doubts for 2 reasons. First, if you ignore a 5-player unit for more than half a decade, you won't fix it with one player a year. Second...it's still Spielman picking.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
I know Spielman's defenders will argue that he has reformed since 2017, because he has used a fairly high pick for an OL every year since then - Elflein, O'Neill, Bradury, Cleveland. OK, that's better. But I have doubts for 2 reasons. First, if you ignore a 5-player unit for more than half a decade, you won't fix it with one player a year. Second...it's still Spielman picking.
Spielman has defenders? Will the last Spielman defender out of the building please shut off the lights?
They thought 6th rounder Brandon Fusco was a hit and this had Spielman bragging in media interviews for several years about their brilliant discovery that you could build an oline with lower round guys. Meanwhile Fusco went downhill fast and the David Yankeys of the world didn't last.
But somehow Rick stuck to this fantasy with the exception of Kalil who was basically just the safe, consensus pick at the time, until he finally conceded to reality by drafting Pat Elflein in the 3rd. As lousy at that has turned out, Elf has still seen more of the field than just about any of Rick's back-of-the-draft nobodies ever did.
It's all just sad and long past time for Rick and Zim to go. But ownership has a penchant for doubling down on football failure. So we're saddled with them and Cousins awful contract and all the rest for who knows how long.
With covid knocking revenue down and Wilf on the hook for his new, mostly empty hotel, it's possible he isn't willing to jettison the pair and eat their freshly minted extensions, even if the idea somehow worms it's way past the layer of insulation that seemingly keeps all possible smart football moves from coming in contact with his brain.
Quote: @comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
I know Spielman's defenders will argue that he has reformed since 2017, because he has used a fairly high pick for an OL every year since then - Elflein, O'Neill, Bradury, Cleveland. OK, that's better. But I have doubts for 2 reasons. First, if you ignore a 5-player unit for more than half a decade, you won't fix it with one player a year. Second...it's still Spielman picking.
Spielman has defenders? Will the last Spielman defender out of the building please shut off the lights?
They thought 6th rounder Brandon Fusco was a hit and this had Spielman bragging in media interviews for several years about their brilliant discovery that you could build an oline with lower round guys. Meanwhile Fusco went downhill fast and the David Yankeys of the world didn't last.
But somehow Rick stuck to this fantasy with the exception of Kalil who was basically just the safe, consensus pick at the time, until he finally conceded to reality by drafting Pat Elflein in the 3rd. As lousy at that has turned out, Elf has still seen more of the field than just about any of Rick's back-of-the-draft nobodies ever did.
It's all just sad and long past time for Rick and Zim to go. But ownership has a penchant for doubling down on football failure. So we're saddled with them and Cousins awful contract and all the rest for who knows how long.
With covid knocking revenue down and Wilf on the hook for his new, mostly empty hotel, it's possible he isn't willing to jettison the pair and eat their freshly minted extensions, even if the idea somehow worms it's way past the layer of insulation that seemingly keeps all possible smart football moves from coming in contact with his brain.
Damn - I thought I was hostile to Spielman...
But yes there are people today still praising his drafting if you hunt around on this board just a bit. Fusco...yes I thought RS shipped out Schwartz a bit too rapidly to promote Brandon. But IMO Fusco illustrates another of our problems trying to manage our OL: the idea that linemen can be moved all over and play as well at one position as another. Fusco was a decent, probably league-average, player at RG. So the Vikings braintrust thought, "He can solve our problem at LG!" But Fusco sucked at the LG. Rather than move him back to RG, they waived him. Fusco promptly wrapped up his career with the 49ers and Falcons, starting and playing decently at - you guessed it - RG before his career was ended by injury. He wasn't a star lineman but the production he gave OTHER TEAMS at RG was better than what the Vikings have.
The Vikings under Spielman have moved offensive linemen around willy-nilly. Yes, you find the occasional Joe Berger who can be a jack of multiple positions (but master none), but a lot of players seem to need to settle in at one role or are naturally best at one. Fusco should have demonstrated that, but TJ Clemmings and Jeremiah Sirles and others should have as well.
I count releasing Fusco, Schwartz, and John Sullivan (who just needed more time to recover from injury) as more unfortunate personnel mistakes. I don't know if Spielman makes the final decision who to waive, but he's part of it.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ comet52 said:
@ Jor-El said:
I know Spielman's defenders will argue that he has reformed since 2017, because he has used a fairly high pick for an OL every year since then - Elflein, O'Neill, Bradury, Cleveland. OK, that's better. But I have doubts for 2 reasons. First, if you ignore a 5-player unit for more than half a decade, you won't fix it with one player a year. Second...it's still Spielman picking.
Spielman has defenders? Will the last Spielman defender out of the building please shut off the lights?
They thought 6th rounder Brandon Fusco was a hit and this had Spielman bragging in media interviews for several years about their brilliant discovery that you could build an oline with lower round guys. Meanwhile Fusco went downhill fast and the David Yankeys of the world didn't last.
But somehow Rick stuck to this fantasy with the exception of Kalil who was basically just the safe, consensus pick at the time, until he finally conceded to reality by drafting Pat Elflein in the 3rd. As lousy at that has turned out, Elf has still seen more of the field than just about any of Rick's back-of-the-draft nobodies ever did.
It's all just sad and long past time for Rick and Zim to go. But ownership has a penchant for doubling down on football failure. So we're saddled with them and Cousins awful contract and all the rest for who knows how long.
With covid knocking revenue down and Wilf on the hook for his new, mostly empty hotel, it's possible he isn't willing to jettison the pair and eat their freshly minted extensions, even if the idea somehow worms it's way past the layer of insulation that seemingly keeps all possible smart football moves from coming in contact with his brain.
Damn - I thought I was hostile to Spielman...
But yes there are people today still praising his drafting if you hunt around on this board just a bit. Fusco...yes I thought RS shipped out Schwartz a bit too rapidly to promote Brandon. But IMO Fusco illustrates another of our problems trying to manage our OL: the idea that linemen can be moved all over and play as well at one position as another. Fusco was a decent, probably league-average, player at RG. So the Vikings braintrust thought, "He can solve our problem at LG!" But Fusco sucked at the LG. Rather than move him back to RG, they waived him. Fusco promptly wrapped up his career with the 49ers and Falcons, starting and playing decently at - you guessed it - RG before his career was ended by injury. He wasn't a star lineman but the production he gave OTHER TEAMS at RG was better than what the Vikings have.
The Vikings under Spielman have moved offensive linemen around willy-nilly. Yes, you find the occasional Joe Berger who can be a jack of multiple positions (but master none), but a lot of players seem to need to settle in at one role or are naturally best at one. Fusco should have demonstrated that, but TJ Clemmings and Jeremiah Sirles and others should have as well.
I count releasing Fusco, Schwartz, and John Sullivan (who just needed more time to recover from injury) as more unfortunate personnel mistakes. I don't know if Spielman makes the final decision who to waive, but he's part of it.
I've felt Spielman has drafted ok, compared to other teams, but what the team does with the picks especially at OL is baffling. Does that fall on Rick? I don't know, he hires the coaches. They're the ones playing tinker toys with the line year in and year out.
I just feel at this point the team needs to clean house and start over. They should have done it last winter. How are the genius Wilf bros going to feel if Stefanski builds the Browns into a powerhouse. The dummies who bought the team saying "We want to be like the Giants" and now they say "We want to be like the Steelers." They're just living in fantasyland as usual with no clue. We're more like the Lions than either of those teams. They had Tomlin on their payroll and Childress showing what an ass he was in year one, he was a terrible idiot hire to begin with. But off went Tomlin to win a title with Pittsburgh. They had Stefanski on their payroll for years, will it turn out the same? Who knows.
It's not Spielman I loathe, it's Wilf. Rick is just a guy who works hard and knows where his bread is buttered. I think one thing fans don't realize as they savage Rick is, and this is my observation you could argue I'm wrong, but he really mostly does what Wilf and Zimmer want. He serves his masters well while preserving his position, he's a political creature to some extent.
Anyhow, Wilf has wasted 16 years of my football fandom on nonsense like the TOA, Chili, Les, sticking with Spielman and Zimmer past the expiration date, and all the rest of it. People carry on about how great he is because he built some buildings. I'd take a SB trophy and a seat in the Metrodome with the team still practicing at Winter Park any day of the week over this perpetually mediocre shit I am supposed to cheer for now. End of rant. =)
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