Why are we picking QB's based off stats? If you turn on Cousins film he's a very different player than the stats sheet shows. Put it this way, his stats and W/L record is comparable to Stafford. Watch both of them on film for 3+ games and you're going to wonder how. Stafford passes the eye test while Cousins has his moments but also makes some really boneheaded decisions with the ball. I am not anti-Cousins but I two have two big questions on how he fits in MN.
1. He is much better throwing in-breaking routes than towards the boundary. He is more effective and visibly more comfortable when throwing up the seam. McVay and Gruden implemented a lot of skinny posts in 2016 to take advantage of it. It's an easy read and they have a natural mismatch with Crowder/Grant in the slot. On anything out breaking Kirk is fine when he can put it on a line. But anything with air under it is inaccurate. In 2017 the Vikings dominated on the boundaries. They ran some underneath drags and rubs, but the majority of their production came on the outsides of the field. So with Cousins you're going to need to change what you were good at a season ago to play to his strengths.
2. Taking Kirk out of his current offense and plopping him into DeFilippo's system is riskier than most people think. When Kirk understands his keys and has a pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing, things go smoothly. He's been surrounded by some of the best offensive minds in the game the past three years to help slow things down for him. The built in keys have served him extremely well. When things don't go to plan or Kirk's surprised things go off the rails pretty quick. That's really where Case shined last year, making the improbable plays. But you're forced questioning how effective Kirk will be if he doesn't have the same level of supporting cast from a coaching standpoint. Nothing against DeFilippo or Stefanski, change just can lead to surprises.
I'm pretty confident every QB gets hit by large angry men...I'm equally confident that not every QB fumbles 12 times in a season...
Quote: @"BarrNone55" said:
I'm pretty confident every QB gets hit by large angry men...I'm equally confident that not every QB fumbles 12 times in a season...
it kind of speaks to a lack of pocket awareness IMO, especially when you couple it with the quality OL he was working with as previously shown.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
I'm pretty confident every QB gets hit by large angry men...I'm equally confident that not every QB fumbles 12 times in a season...
it kind of speaks to a lack of pocket awareness IMO, especially when you couple it with the quality OL he was working with as previously shown.
Yup...you add that with a propensity to take a bad sack at the worst possible time...
Context. That quality O-Line has played how many snaps together? Didn't TJ Clemm see significantly snaps last year? Weren't there something like 5 different Centers last year?
Doesn't explain away it all. The tape shows him time and again standing in the pocket forever with no idea the blindside rusher is closing in. That's poor pocket awareness plain and simple.
But just throwing out there that the dude played behind a great Line without accounting for how often they were banged up or using backups is not telling the whole story.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
Context. That quality O-Line has played how many snaps together? Didn't TJ Clemm see significantly snaps last year? Weren't there something like 5 different Centers last year?
Doesn't explain away it all. The tape shows him time and again standing in the pocket forever with no idea the blindside rusher is closing in. That's poor pocket awareness plain and simple.
But just throwing out there that the dude played behind a great Line without accounting for how often they were banged up or using backups is not telling the whole story.
and every team has injuries, you said it yourself that he tends to hold the ball to long in the pocket and not recognize that his protection is breaking down or doesnt read overloads pre snap.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ FSUVike said:
Context. That quality O-Line has played how many snaps together? Didn't TJ Clemm see significantly snaps last year? Weren't there something like 5 different Centers last year?
Doesn't explain away it all. The tape shows him time and again standing in the pocket forever with no idea the blindside rusher is closing in. That's poor pocket awareness plain and simple.
But just throwing out there that the dude played behind a great Line without accounting for how often they were banged up or using backups is not telling the whole story.
and every team has injuries, you said it yourself that he tends to hold the ball to long in the pocket and not recognize that his protection is breaking down or doesnt read overloads pre snap.
I did. Just pointing out that folks can't say Kirk has always had a great O-Line that helped pad his stats without acknowledging that the O-Line has rarely been healthy.
Look. He's got flaws. You prefer Case over him? We've generally been of the same opinion regarding Keenum.
If Brad's knee is really degenerative and Teddy is still not fully recovered it would seem to be Kirk vs. Case. I lean Kirk due to better arm and more years of consistent performance, provided he doesn't break the bank.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ FSUVike said:
Context. That quality O-Line has played how many snaps together? Didn't TJ Clemm see significantly snaps last year? Weren't there something like 5 different Centers last year?
Doesn't explain away it all. The tape shows him time and again standing in the pocket forever with no idea the blindside rusher is closing in. That's poor pocket awareness plain and simple.
But just throwing out there that the dude played behind a great Line without accounting for how often they were banged up or using backups is not telling the whole story.
and every team has injuries, you said it yourself that he tends to hold the ball to long in the pocket and not recognize that his protection is breaking down or doesnt read overloads pre snap.
I did. Just pointing out that folks can't say Kirk has always had a great O-Line that helped pad his stats without acknowledging that the O-Line has rarely been healthy.
Look. He's got flaws. You prefer Case over him? We've generally been of the same opinion regarding Keenum.
If Brad's knee is really degenerative and Teddy is still not fully recovered it would seem to be Kirk vs. Case. I lean Kirk due to better arm and more years of consistent performance, provided he doesn't break the bank.
right now I am not sure what the best move is. Cousins will be grossly overpaid above 25 imo. Case is what I have said he is, a good not great QB with his escapability being his only real strength. Sam has the best arm talent of the bunch, but that knee situation is baffling and should carry a lot of pause, but if he is willing to play on an incentive laden deal with minimal risk to the team.... likely the best option short term IMO. Teddy has the most upside to me, but again he also likely comes with the most question marks.
In my opinion, assuming there are no true immediate red flags, the best option would be Sam and Teddy, or one of them with Case where our total guaranteed money is under 28 million per year for the short term. Or maybe Sam or Teddy with a Fitzpatrick, or other decent veteran as a back up in case the worst happens and Sloter isnt ready. If they do go the cheaper route (not cousins) I would like to see another developmental guy taken in day 2 to try and create competition for Sloter next year and possibly the #1 spot in 19 or 20...keep the pipeline full.
Sloter is kind of the wild card here, if they think he will challenge for playing time in 19.. kind of means we just need to find a loaner guy or at least not commit to crazy guaranteed money past year 2 of any deal.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
Why are we picking QB's based off stats? If you turn on Cousins film he's a very different player than the stats sheet shows. Put it this way, his stats and W/L record is comparable to Stafford. Watch both of them on film for 3+ games and you're going to wonder how. Stafford passes the eye test while Cousins has his moments but also makes some really boneheaded decisions with the ball. I am not anti-Cousins but I two have two big questions on how he fits in MN.
1. He is much better throwing in-breaking routes than towards the boundary. He is more effective and visibly more comfortable when throwing up the seam. McVay and Gruden implemented a lot of skinny posts in 2016 to take advantage of it. It's an easy read and they have a natural mismatch with Crowder/Grant in the slot. On anything out breaking Kirk is fine when he can put it on a line. But anything with air under it is inaccurate. In 2017 the Vikings dominated on the boundaries. They ran some underneath drags and rubs, but the majority of their production came on the outsides of the field. So with Cousins you're going to need to change what you were good at a season ago to play to his strengths.
2. Taking Kirk out of his current offense and plopping him into DeFilippo's system is riskier than most people think. When Kirk understands his keys and has a pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing, things go smoothly. He's been surrounded by some of the best offensive minds in the game the past three years to help slow things down for him. The built in keys have served him extremely well. When things don't go to plan or Kirk's surprised things go off the rails pretty quick. That's really where Case shined last year, making the improbable plays. But you're forced questioning how effective Kirk will be if he doesn't have the same level of supporting cast from a coaching standpoint. Nothing against DeFilippo or Stefanski, change just can lead to surprises.
I guess I prefer a guy like Case(a marginally talented gamer that thrives improvising) to a guy like Kirk 'might be' i.e. needs everything to be set up nicely and flounders when things go sideways. That is my biggest reservation with Kirk and the big money people are speculating about.
IMO Teddy(if healthy and back to 2016 form)bridges a bit of that gap where he can improvise and move but can also work well within the system when it is working. He's not the school yard gun slinger Case is but he also doesn't fold when things get messy like it appears Kirk might.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
Why are we picking QB's based off stats? If you turn on Cousins film he's a very different player than the stats sheet shows. Put it this way, his stats and W/L record is comparable to Stafford. Watch both of them on film for 3+ games and you're going to wonder how. Stafford passes the eye test while Cousins has his moments but also makes some really boneheaded decisions with the ball. I am not anti-Cousins but I two have two big questions on how he fits in MN.
1. He is much better throwing in-breaking routes than towards the boundary. He is more effective and visibly more comfortable when throwing up the seam. McVay and Gruden implemented a lot of skinny posts in 2016 to take advantage of it. It's an easy read and they have a natural mismatch with Crowder/Grant in the slot. On anything out breaking Kirk is fine when he can put it on a line. But anything with air under it is inaccurate. In 2017 the Vikings dominated on the boundaries. They ran some underneath drags and rubs, but the majority of their production came on the outsides of the field. So with Cousins you're going to need to change what you were good at a season ago to play to his strengths.
2. Taking Kirk out of his current offense and plopping him into DeFilippo's system is riskier than most people think. When Kirk understands his keys and has a pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing, things go smoothly. He's been surrounded by some of the best offensive minds in the game the past three years to help slow things down for him. The built in keys have served him extremely well. When things don't go to plan or Kirk's surprised things go off the rails pretty quick. That's really where Case shined last year, making the improbable plays. But you're forced questioning how effective Kirk will be if he doesn't have the same level of supporting cast from a coaching standpoint. Nothing against DeFilippo or Stefanski, change just can lead to surprises.
Interesting observation. So you think Kirk has reached his ceiling and would never get any better in the areas that you see as deficient?
After all, it was his first 3 years starting. It's not like he has played 6 or 7 years and is still as you describe.
Maybe he has reached his ceiling and this is all a team would get?
If it were you, who would you try to sign?
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