Ponder went to hell at FSU, exactly like i told you all before Minnesota drafted him.
Really? Ponder talk after what just happened in another NFCCG?
It's enough to make a poster change their handle...
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Jor-El said:
Do you mean if people ignored Ryan having 6 years averaging 28 TDs and 4,000 yards, and only looking at his first 2 years, that would be ridiculous? Well, yeah, it would.
But if the ONLY experience Ryan had in the NFL was his first two years - yes, some people would justifiably suggest he might never produce any more. Why would we assume otherwise? Not every rookie who is "decent" his first 2 seasons becomes a much better player, even if uninjured. Christian Ponder's stats were similar to Bridgewater's for his first two seasons, but he didn't turn into Matt Ryan.
Some people seem to see 6 great seasons by Bridgewater that haven't happened yet.
If you couldn't see the difference in composure and accuracy between the two in their first two seasons, then there's probably nothing I can say that will change your mind. Ponder was a 2nd to 3rd round QB taken in the first due to a run on QBs. Bridgewater was the consensus #1 overall pick until a bunch of idiots put too much stock into a bad pro day. His rookie year had most people rethinking their approach to pro days. You could SEE the cobwebs and chaos in Ponder's head from the beginning.
This is probably the best way of simplifying the differences. There are exceptions, but very few QB's come into the league and are dominant until year 3 in their career. What you are looking for in years 1-2 is steady improvement and specific traits. Bridgewater did a lot of good things. His ability to maneuver the pocket was really the biggest chip he brought to the table. Without dropping his eyes he did a very good job of feeling pressure and finding enough space to get passes off. Within 15-20 yards he was lethally accurate and understood ball placement. Not only did receivers have a chance to run after the catch but they were often times protected from unnecessary hits. In no ways was Bridgewater a finished product in 2015/16. But he showed the traits that he had a good chance of significantly improving his production. Ponder didn't show those same qualities.
Ultimately you need to know what you're letting walk out the door if you're the Vikings. At this point I am not sold they are 100% confident in their evaluation of where he's at. Part of that has to deal with the fact that he hasn't gotten into a meaningful game situation. Practice will give them a good idea, but you won't know what Teddy is until he is taking snaps with a live pass rush. Risky, yes. But it likely has the highest upside given the cost.
any word on what Teddys agent is realistically looking for? do they really think he will get an offer from somebody without any legit competition for the #1 spot or are they expecting to be in a camp battle no matter where they end up?
(the same questions with Sam and Case as well I guess)
No idea what his agent would be looking for, the market will dictate it. But whether his contract tolls is the conversation right now. The Vikings have expressed to Bridgewater's camp they would like him back though.
It is pretty risky to put all their faith in Teddy and Sloter the next couple of seasons.
The team is pretty close right now and risking this window to find out if they are right about Teddy is crazy.
I would rather they look at keeping the window open or making it bigger than to try and make a short run.
I think signing Cousins would be a long term move and could/should bring some stability to the position provided he stays healthy. They have Sloter developing and can draft another player this year or next to also develop.
it could, but I still think that paying a QB upwards of 30 million puts a lot more pressure on drafting exceptionally to keep the rest of the average salaries low. i know many think they can make it work, but not many teams do. IMO in order to pay a QB that kind of money and still have continual success is for that QB to one of the tops in the league like Brady. Rogers is a great QB as well and the pack struggle due to not having enough money to fix all their areas of need and field a deep enough team to overcome a few injuries.
I wouldn't look at that $30M amount, it's window dressing. But lets play it out. Say a team is going to give Kirk a 5 year $150M contract with $70M guaranteed at signing and around $92M in practical guarantees. This would make him the highest paid QB in the history of the NFL for the time being.
But the contract layout could make it much more bearable:
2018: Salary = $21M / Bonus = $1.5M / Roster Bonus = $3.5M / Cap Hit = $26M / Dead Cap = $70M / Savings = (44M)
2019: Salary = $25M / Bonus = $1.5M / Roster Bonus = $1.5M / Cap Hit = $28M / Dead Cap = $44M / Savings = (16M)
2020: Salary = $27,5M / Bonus = $1.5M / Roster Bonus = $0M / Cap Hit = $29M / Dead Cap = $16M / Savings = 13M
2021: Salary = $23.5M / Bonus = $1.5M / Roster Bonus = $6.0M / Cap Hit = $31M / Dead Cap = $3M / Savings = 28M
2022: Salary = $34.5M / Bonus = $1.5M / Roster Bonus = $0M / Cap Hit = $36M / Dead Cap = $1.5M / Savings = 34.5M
In the above deal $11.5M of Kirk's 2020 salary is guaranteed at signing. An additional $11.5M would be guaranteed at the beginning of the 2020 league year. In 2021 the $6M roster bonus is paid on the 3rd day of the league year.
In all, do I think Kirk gets a contract that averages $30M per year? No. Maybe more in the ballpark of $27. Otherwise if he wants to truly pay for a winner he'll take a lower average salary with heavier guarantees. For example taking $25M per season with a full $90M guaranteed at signing to rid himself of potential team options.
Either way. In the above Kirk is putting $32M in his pockets the first year of the deal, which is great cash flow for him while keeping the cap impact $3M greater than franchising Keenum. Year two is where you start to feel the contract a little bit. By year 3 you feel the same impact at $29M but at that point you can get out of the deal if you want. There are ways to work these types of deals to mitigate risk.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
More talk of keeping windows open for a team with zero titles. Personally, I'd be happy with one. Gotta learn how to walk before you can learn how to run.
Defense is already ranked #1. Sure, upgrades can be made. But in this current climate the good teams will be able to score on you in the Playoffs.
Love Teddy. Legitimately the first to predict that Minnesota would take him on this board. But he's the Unknown. Cousins is the Known.
And I'm sorry but this notion that signing him mortgages the future makes me laugh.
Agree with all of this. Cousins certainly is a MUCH more known quantity than Teddy. And this 'but we can get TB on the cheap', who cares?? His play might be subpar and cheap, also. The Vikings need to step it UP to get on par with teams like Philly. They kicked our asses 6 ways to Sunday. They aren't going away. Rodgers and Green Bay will be right back there this season in the NFC mix. The Saints were one 'Miracle in Minneapolis' away from another one and done for the Vikings.
Get better or get left behind in 2018. Be bold. If that's with TB, then so be it: I'm all in. But he's the least known quantity in any of the QB scenarios, so don't delude yourselves into thinking he isn't.
Quote: @Jor-El said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Disagree. I think too many try to retrofit Teddy into this game-manager straitjacket as if that's all he'll ever be. That's what he was his first two seasons because, like a lot of young QBs around that time, that's what he was asked to do on a run-first team with a good defense and one of the NFL's best running backs.
It's frustrating, too, because everyone seems to have forgotten that the idea was that the straitjacket was going to come off in his 3rd season. If you recall the buzz from that summer, Mike Zimmer talked about it. Norv talked about it. Even Adrian mentioned that he was going to have to adapt and be more of a pass catcher because the offense was changing.
It would be like Matt Ryan missing the last couple of seasons and folks claiming that all he'll ever be is a game manager who averaged about 3,000 yards a season with 19 TDs and 13 INTs, because that's what he averaged his first two seasons.
It's kinda ridiculous.
Do you mean if people ignored Ryan having 6 years averaging 28 TDs and 4,000 yards, and only looking at his first 2 years, that would be ridiculous? Well, yeah, it would.
But if the ONLY experience Ryan had in the NFL was his first two years - yes, some people would justifiably suggest he might never produce any more. Why would we assume otherwise? Not every rookie who is "decent" his first 2 seasons becomes a much better player, even if uninjured. Christian Ponder's stats were similar to Bridgewater's for his first two seasons, but he didn't turn into Matt Ryan.
Some people seem to see 6 great seasons by Bridgewater that haven't happened yet.
If you couldn't see the difference in composure and accuracy between the two in their first two seasons, then there's probably nothing I can say that will change your mind. Ponder was a 2nd to 3rd round QB taken in the first due to a run on QBs. Bridgewater was the consensus #1 overall pick until a bunch of idiots put too much stock into a bad pro day. His rookie year had most people rethinking their approach to pro days. You could SEE the cobwebs and chaos in Ponder's head from the beginning.
I've heard this "EVERYONE could SEE/JUST KNEW/IT WAS OBVIOUS that PONDER WAS CONFUSED / TEDDY WAS ABOUT TO BECOME A STAR" many times here. I don't want to waste a long thread on it, but...Bullshit. After his 18-TD 2012 season there were plenty of observers saying Ponder was a breakout candidate. Everyone? Of course not - there is no universal consensus, except the bandwagon many people claim they were always on when hindsight kicks in. Just like "everyone" was saying Derek Carr was a superstar franchise QB one year ago but many people now claim they always had their doubts. Players' performance isn't known until it happens. Ponder went to hell in his 3rd year - Bridgewater's has not yet happened.
All of this is projection and opinion based on what we've seen. I project, based on what I've seen, that Josh Rosen is going to be a pretty good NFL QB. I project, based on what I've seen, that Dalvin Cook is going to a pretty good NFL back. I project, based on what I've seen, that Case Keenum has fundamental flaws that will prevent him from duplicating his 2017 performance on another team. I project that due to accuracy issues Josh Allen is going to be a disappointment.
Do I KNOW any of these things? Of course not. These are just opinions, so let's cut the "bullshit" talk, OK?
About Christian Ponder, I thought the best thing for him was to disappear on someone's depth chart. Be a backup for 3 or 4 seasons, clear his head (his biggest problem) and maybe, just maybe, he could emerge a few years down the road as a Rich Gannon type.
And for the record, when that Derek Carr thread was going around last summer saying that he was the best QB from that draft, my response was that he is "now," but that he wasn't the year before, and may not be the next year. My point being that most young QBs, to varying degrees, are products of their supporting casts. They can magnify or disguise a QB's true talent. Drives me crazy that so many people throw around terms like "franchise" and "game-manager" without factoring in scheme and cast. It's why NFL teams continue to throw ridiculous money at people like Marc Bulger and Matt Cassel and Jake Delhomme and...who's next?
It's for this very reason that Kirk Cousins is so tempting. Do I want to spend $30M on a QB? I don't think so. But when you consider his performance on a team with a very questionable supporting cast, it makes him a very tantalizing option.
Do I expect Carr to bounce back? Yeah, based on what I've seen, and what I know about his supporting cast, I do. But again, it's just my opinion. Don't let it bother you so much.
Quote: @"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Disagree. I think too many try to retrofit Teddy into this game-manager straitjacket as if that's all he'll ever be. That's what he was his first two seasons because, like a lot of young QBs around that time, that's what he was asked to do on a run-first team with a good defense and one of the NFL's best running backs.
It's frustrating, too, because everyone seems to have forgotten that the idea was that the straitjacket was going to come off in his 3rd season. If you recall the buzz from that summer, Mike Zimmer talked about it. Norv talked about it. Even Adrian mentioned that he was going to have to adapt and be more of a pass catcher because the offense was changing.
It would be like Matt Ryan missing the last couple of seasons and folks claiming that all he'll ever be is a game manager who averaged about 3,000 yards a season with 19 TDs and 13 INTs, because that's what he averaged his first two seasons.
It's kinda ridiculous.
Do you mean if people ignored Ryan having 6 years averaging 28 TDs and 4,000 yards, and only looking at his first 2 years, that would be ridiculous? Well, yeah, it would.
But if the ONLY experience Ryan had in the NFL was his first two years - yes, some people would justifiably suggest he might never produce any more. Why would we assume otherwise? Not every rookie who is "decent" his first 2 seasons becomes a much better player, even if uninjured. Christian Ponder's stats were similar to Bridgewater's for his first two seasons, but he didn't turn into Matt Ryan.
Some people seem to see 6 great seasons by Bridgewater that haven't happened yet.
If you couldn't see the difference in composure and accuracy between the two in their first two seasons, then there's probably nothing I can say that will change your mind. Ponder was a 2nd to 3rd round QB taken in the first due to a run on QBs. Bridgewater was the consensus #1 overall pick until a bunch of idiots put too much stock into a bad pro day. His rookie year had most people rethinking their approach to pro days. You could SEE the cobwebs and chaos in Ponder's head from the beginning.
This is probably the best way of simplifying the differences. There are exceptions, but very few QB's come into the league and are dominant until year 3 in their career. What you are looking for in years 1-2 is steady improvement and specific traits. Bridgewater did a lot of good things. His ability to maneuver the pocket was really the biggest chip he brought to the table. Without dropping his eyes he did a very good job of feeling pressure and finding enough space to get passes off. Within 15-20 yards he was lethally accurate and understood ball placement. Not only did receivers have a chance to run after the catch but they were often times protected from unnecessary hits. In no ways was Bridgewater a finished product in 2015/16. But he showed the traits that he had a good chance of significantly improving his production. Ponder didn't show those same qualities.
Ultimately you need to know what you're letting walk out the door if you're the Vikings. At this point I am not sold they are 100% confident in their evaluation of where he's at. Part of that has to deal with the fact that he hasn't gotten into a meaningful game situation. Practice will give them a good idea, but you won't know what Teddy is until he is taking snaps with a live pass rush. Risky, yes. But it likely has the highest upside given the cost.
any word on what Teddys agent is realistically looking for? do they really think he will get an offer from somebody without any legit competition for the #1 spot or are they expecting to be in a camp battle no matter where they end up?
(the same questions with Sam and Case as well I guess)
No idea what his agent would be looking for, the market will dictate it. But whether his contract tolls is the conversation right now. The Vikings have expressed to Bridgewater's camp they would like him back though.
I’d like Teddy back but not as the assumed starter. There is a lot to prove there and I sure wouldn’t put all my eggs in that basket at this point but he’s still young enough to not give up on him. This season will obviously be pivotal.
I like that they appear to be evaluating everything including QBs beyond the three on the roster last season.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Disagree. I think too many try to retrofit Teddy into this game-manager straitjacket as if that's all he'll ever be. That's what he was his first two seasons because, like a lot of young QBs around that time, that's what he was asked to do on a run-first team with a good defense and one of the NFL's best running backs.
It's frustrating, too, because everyone seems to have forgotten that the idea was that the straitjacket was going to come off in his 3rd season. If you recall the buzz from that summer, Mike Zimmer talked about it. Norv talked about it. Even Adrian mentioned that he was going to have to adapt and be more of a pass catcher because the offense was changing.
It would be like Matt Ryan missing the last couple of seasons and folks claiming that all he'll ever be is a game manager who averaged about 3,000 yards a season with 19 TDs and 13 INTs, because that's what he averaged his first two seasons.
It's kinda ridiculous.
Do you mean if people ignored Ryan having 6 years averaging 28 TDs and 4,000 yards, and only looking at his first 2 years, that would be ridiculous? Well, yeah, it would.
But if the ONLY experience Ryan had in the NFL was his first two years - yes, some people would justifiably suggest he might never produce any more. Why would we assume otherwise? Not every rookie who is "decent" his first 2 seasons becomes a much better player, even if uninjured. Christian Ponder's stats were similar to Bridgewater's for his first two seasons, but he didn't turn into Matt Ryan.
Some people seem to see 6 great seasons by Bridgewater that haven't happened yet.
If you couldn't see the difference in composure and accuracy between the two in their first two seasons, then there's probably nothing I can say that will change your mind. Ponder was a 2nd to 3rd round QB taken in the first due to a run on QBs. Bridgewater was the consensus #1 overall pick until a bunch of idiots put too much stock into a bad pro day. His rookie year had most people rethinking their approach to pro days. You could SEE the cobwebs and chaos in Ponder's head from the beginning.
This is probably the best way of simplifying the differences. There are exceptions, but very few QB's come into the league and are dominant until year 3 in their career. What you are looking for in years 1-2 is steady improvement and specific traits. Bridgewater did a lot of good things. His ability to maneuver the pocket was really the biggest chip he brought to the table. Without dropping his eyes he did a very good job of feeling pressure and finding enough space to get passes off. Within 15-20 yards he was lethally accurate and understood ball placement. Not only did receivers have a chance to run after the catch but they were often times protected from unnecessary hits. In no ways was Bridgewater a finished product in 2015/16. But he showed the traits that he had a good chance of significantly improving his production. Ponder didn't show those same qualities.
Ultimately you need to know what you're letting walk out the door if you're the Vikings. At this point I am not sold they are 100% confident in their evaluation of where he's at. Part of that has to deal with the fact that he hasn't gotten into a meaningful game situation. Practice will give them a good idea, but you won't know what Teddy is until he is taking snaps with a live pass rush. Risky, yes. But it likely has the highest upside given the cost.
any word on what Teddys agent is realistically looking for? do they really think he will get an offer from somebody without any legit competition for the #1 spot or are they expecting to be in a camp battle no matter where they end up?
(the same questions with Sam and Case as well I guess)
No idea what his agent would be looking for, the market will dictate it. But whether his contract tolls is the conversation right now. The Vikings have expressed to Bridgewater's camp they would like him back though.
It is pretty risky to put all their faith in Teddy and Sloter the next couple of seasons.
The team is pretty close right now and risking this window to find out if they are right about Teddy is crazy.
I would rather they look at keeping the window open or making it bigger than to try and make a short run.
I think signing Cousins would be a long term move and could/should bring some stability to the position provided he stays healthy. They have Sloter developing and can draft another player this year or next to also develop.
it could, but I still think that paying a QB upwards of 30 million puts a lot more pressure on drafting exceptionally to keep the rest of the average salaries low. i know many think they can make it work, but not many teams do. IMO in order to pay a QB that kind of money and still have continual the success is for that QB to one of the tops in the league like Brady. Rogers is a great QB as well and the pack struggle due to not having enough money to fix all their areas of need and field a deep enough team to overcome a few injuries.
Rodgers is not preventing the Packers from doing anything. They never spend to the cap and have plenty of money.
Quote: @Purplewhizz said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MarkSP18 said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ Jor-El said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Disagree. I think too many try to retrofit Teddy into this game-manager straitjacket as if that's all he'll ever be. That's what he was his first two seasons because, like a lot of young QBs around that time, that's what he was asked to do on a run-first team with a good defense and one of the NFL's best running backs.
It's frustrating, too, because everyone seems to have forgotten that the idea was that the straitjacket was going to come off in his 3rd season. If you recall the buzz from that summer, Mike Zimmer talked about it. Norv talked about it. Even Adrian mentioned that he was going to have to adapt and be more of a pass catcher because the offense was changing.
It would be like Matt Ryan missing the last couple of seasons and folks claiming that all he'll ever be is a game manager who averaged about 3,000 yards a season with 19 TDs and 13 INTs, because that's what he averaged his first two seasons.
It's kinda ridiculous.
Do you mean if people ignored Ryan having 6 years averaging 28 TDs and 4,000 yards, and only looking at his first 2 years, that would be ridiculous? Well, yeah, it would.
But if the ONLY experience Ryan had in the NFL was his first two years - yes, some people would justifiably suggest he might never produce any more. Why would we assume otherwise? Not every rookie who is "decent" his first 2 seasons becomes a much better player, even if uninjured. Christian Ponder's stats were similar to Bridgewater's for his first two seasons, but he didn't turn into Matt Ryan.
Some people seem to see 6 great seasons by Bridgewater that haven't happened yet.
If you couldn't see the difference in composure and accuracy between the two in their first two seasons, then there's probably nothing I can say that will change your mind. Ponder was a 2nd to 3rd round QB taken in the first due to a run on QBs. Bridgewater was the consensus #1 overall pick until a bunch of idiots put too much stock into a bad pro day. His rookie year had most people rethinking their approach to pro days. You could SEE the cobwebs and chaos in Ponder's head from the beginning.
This is probably the best way of simplifying the differences. There are exceptions, but very few QB's come into the league and are dominant until year 3 in their career. What you are looking for in years 1-2 is steady improvement and specific traits. Bridgewater did a lot of good things. His ability to maneuver the pocket was really the biggest chip he brought to the table. Without dropping his eyes he did a very good job of feeling pressure and finding enough space to get passes off. Within 15-20 yards he was lethally accurate and understood ball placement. Not only did receivers have a chance to run after the catch but they were often times protected from unnecessary hits. In no ways was Bridgewater a finished product in 2015/16. But he showed the traits that he had a good chance of significantly improving his production. Ponder didn't show those same qualities.
Ultimately you need to know what you're letting walk out the door if you're the Vikings. At this point I am not sold they are 100% confident in their evaluation of where he's at. Part of that has to deal with the fact that he hasn't gotten into a meaningful game situation. Practice will give them a good idea, but you won't know what Teddy is until he is taking snaps with a live pass rush. Risky, yes. But it likely has the highest upside given the cost.
any word on what Teddys agent is realistically looking for? do they really think he will get an offer from somebody without any legit competition for the #1 spot or are they expecting to be in a camp battle no matter where they end up?
(the same questions with Sam and Case as well I guess)
No idea what his agent would be looking for, the market will dictate it. But whether his contract tolls is the conversation right now. The Vikings have expressed to Bridgewater's camp they would like him back though.
It is pretty risky to put all their faith in Teddy and Sloter the next couple of seasons.
The team is pretty close right now and risking this window to find out if they are right about Teddy is crazy.
I would rather they look at keeping the window open or making it bigger than to try and make a short run.
I think signing Cousins would be a long term move and could/should bring some stability to the position provided he stays healthy. They have Sloter developing and can draft another player this year or next to also develop.
it could, but I still think that paying a QB upwards of 30 million puts a lot more pressure on drafting exceptionally to keep the rest of the average salaries low. i know many think they can make it work, but not many teams do. IMO in order to pay a QB that kind of money and still have continual the success is for that QB to one of the tops in the league like Brady. Rogers is a great QB as well and the pack struggle due to not having enough money to fix all their areas of need and field a deep enough team to overcome a few injuries.
Rodgers is not preventing the Packers from doing anything. They never spend to the cap and have plenty of money.
And I have every reason to believe the penny pinching years of Ted Thompson are gone. I look for GB to be more aggressive in FA, draft etc...They know they got a window as long as Rogers is there - and he's starting to get some grey in that beard.
Case and use the $$$ saved to improve the team in other positions. Sam if he can stay healthy has the best arm out of all of them. But just can’t put a whole season on the chance of him staying healthy.
No interest in Cousins at the current price tag. We already have a QB like him... why spend more to get another one.... It’s not like we’re talking fishing poles here.
Regardless of personal preference, this decision will make or break the franchise for the near future. Very important to get it right. Was last season an anomaly or can they be a contender in the NFC ongoing?
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