Quote: @Zanary said:
To me, the glaring needs in the trenches are joined by a similar need to be a more "feared" offense. Despite gains in terms of offensive ranking, our defense was the first item of conversation when analysts weren't focusing on the Case Keenum miracle. The team needs to be consistently dangerous in all facets if the Vikings are doing to get a Lombardi.
Obviously, the question marks at OC and QB are going to be the offseason stories...and I won't pretend to have any insight on how those will be addressed. I know that in my mind, Case showed an unfortunate ceiling and Teddy is still a whole basket of question marks in terms of both recovery and development. Sam may be "all better" and durable, but he's rarely shown to be reliable. Cousins is gonna be expensive and has been more expensive than impressive.
As much as I'd love the money and the input regarding my favorite football team right now, I'd kinda hate to be Rick Speilman.
Ive been saying that for several months now about Rick. or any GM for that matter, now matter how many good moves they make in their careers they will face a few situation like this that will define their careers. If Rick screws this one up it will likely be the end of his time in Minny unless he can somehow get 2 of our 3 guys to sign and compete for some seriously team friendly terms and kick this can down the road a year at which time it will hopefully be more apparent what direction he should go, unless of course they both bust and Cousins turns into the top tier franchise guy that some think he is.
Quote: @SmashmouthD said:
Yes, we need a QB, but we need at least one quality free agent and one high draft pick for the OL and DL. IMO, whichever you can get in free agency, you get the other in the draft. (As of now I'd prefer Richardson or Donald or maybe Poe, then draft an OT at #30).
Donald is still under contract. When the Rams finally extend him, I think he will be the highest paid non-QB in the NFL.
Here's where I'm leaning right now...
Free Agency
QB, Sam Bradford (Teddy Tolls)
3T, Sheldon Richardson
Draft
RT, Mike McGlinchey
Quote: @kmillard said:
@ FSUVike said:
@ SmashmouthD said:
It's the trenches. It's always the trenches.
The game against the Eagles was lost on the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. Our two OTs are each responsible for a turnover that led to 14 points for the other team.
Our D is predicated on getting pressure with our front four, and making the ball come out quick. This allows the D to play extremely sticky early coverage. Against the Eagles, Foles had all day in the pocket to read the field, which allowed their WRs to run around until they got open deep. Flea flicker, and the long TD against Newman are the fault of the D-Line.
We need to get better in the trenches. And that's how I think about this QB discussion.
I don't want to give up too many resources -- picks or cap room -- to get a QB. This team needs a 3-Tech, a pass-rushing DE, and an OG. If we have these things, we make life infinitely easier for any QB we choose.
I'd love to start the season with a competition between Bradford and Bridgewater on short-term contracts. Or, if they like Sloter, then maybe Keenum on a contract with two years of guarantees, with the idea that Sloter will be ready to compete for the starter's spot in 2019.
Folks, the idea with these contracts isn't just cost or performance. It's value. Cousins is perhaps a very good QB, but I don't believe he will be worth the money he will command.
I've seen 34-28 and 41-33 the last two Super Bowls. And that 33 was against a better Front 7 than Minnesota's.
No amount of FA dollars spent this offseason on the Defense will change the fact that this is an Offense driven League right now.
Pick plays. RPO and other college staples being used with great imagination and effectiveness by OCs. So much eye candy and misdirection at the LOS pre-snap. No huddles to keep your Defense on the field and prevent substituting to keep your D-Line fresh.
All that and the good teams are also running the ball well and staying balanced.
Until the League corrects course through better DC creativity I have a hard time seeing why Minnesota should focus too much on the Defense.
Smarter move in my mind would be to upgrade the Offense to be able to stand toe to toe with other Playoff Teams when their Offenses start hitting on all cylinders.
That starts at QB. Sam and Teddy have too big of question marks with their injuries and I'm not convinced either are or will be as good as Cousins. We've already seen Keenum's ceiling and it wasn't good enough.
You can sign Kirk, grab an OT or OG in the 1st and still get a pass rusher in the 2nd. There are older CBs in FA that can be had on the cheap that Mike can perform his voodoo reclamation thing on.
Dropping big bucks on Richardson, who failed to ignite Seattle's D-Line or Poe won't do enough to offset the fact that the Offense is still one level below the Elite teams.
what FSU viking said. That is exactly where its at. This philosophy of keeping games close and controlling the flow with the defense works at times in the regular season, not so much in the modern nfl playoffs. i have watched the Vikings field top defenses many times over the past 30 years. not even one SB appearance let alone a championship. Time for a better less predictable approach.
Then why build the team around Zimmer? Because that's what we have been doing, really - we sign or draft to give Zimmer another piece for his defense.
I feared that philosophy was doomed early in his time here because he was advocating a ball-control offense (featuring Peterson early) to keep his defense fresh. But defenses can be great for 50 minutes of a game and then break open, or for 3/4 of a season and break in a key game, or in the playoffs...
But Zimmer has loosened. He acknowledged last year that he needed to open the offense and set a goal of 21 points a game.
Now maybe he will see that goal (21 points per game) is not sufficient because he won't have an offense that can crank it up to win a shootout with Brees or Rodgers or whoever else. He's evolving.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ SmashmouthD said:
Yes, we need a QB, but we need at least one quality free agent and one high draft pick for the OL and DL. IMO, whichever you can get in free agency, you get the other in the draft. (As of now I'd prefer Richardson or Donald or maybe Poe, then draft an OT at #30).
Donald is still under contract. When the Rams finally extend him, I think he will be the highest paid non-QB in the NFL.
Here's where I'm leaning right now...
Free Agency
QB, Sam Bradford (Teddy Tolls)
3T, Sheldon Richardson
Draft
RT, Mike McGlinchey
You sure Donald is under contract for '18? I thought there was some drama about him signing his tender, and he didn't show up to the team until just before the first game.
Quote: @SmashmouthD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ SmashmouthD said:
Yes, we need a QB, but we need at least one quality free agent and one high draft pick for the OL and DL. IMO, whichever you can get in free agency, you get the other in the draft. (As of now I'd prefer Richardson or Donald or maybe Poe, then draft an OT at #30).
Donald is still under contract. When the Rams finally extend him, I think he will be the highest paid non-QB in the NFL.
Here's where I'm leaning right now...
Free Agency
QB, Sam Bradford (Teddy Tolls)
3T, Sheldon Richardson
Draft
RT, Mike McGlinchey
You sure Donald is under contract for '18? I thought there was some drama about him signing his tender, and he didn't show up to the team until just before the first game.
He wants an extension. As the best defensive player in the NFL, he deserves an extension. But technically, yes, he's under contract through 2018.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
@ SmashmouthD said:
It's the trenches. It's always the trenches.
The game against the Eagles was lost on the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. Our two OTs are each responsible for a turnover that led to 14 points for the other team.
Our D is predicated on getting pressure with our front four, and making the ball come out quick. This allows the D to play extremely sticky early coverage. Against the Eagles, Foles had all day in the pocket to read the field, which allowed their WRs to run around until they got open deep. Flea flicker, and the long TD against Newman are the fault of the D-Line.
We need to get better in the trenches. And that's how I think about this QB discussion.
I don't want to give up too many resources -- picks or cap room -- to get a QB. This team needs a 3-Tech, a pass-rushing DE, and an OG. If we have these things, we make life infinitely easier for any QB we choose.
I'd love to start the season with a competition between Bradford and Bridgewater on short-term contracts. Or, if they like Sloter, then maybe Keenum on a contract with two years of guarantees, with the idea that Sloter will be ready to compete for the starter's spot in 2019.
Folks, the idea with these contracts isn't just cost or performance. It's value. Cousins is perhaps a very good QB, but I don't believe he will be worth the money he will command.
I've seen 34-28 and 41-33 the last two Super Bowls. And that 33 was against a better Front 7 than Minnesota's.
No amount of FA dollars spent this offseason on the Defense will change the fact that this is an Offense driven League right now.
Pick plays. RPO and other college staples being used with great imagination and effectiveness by OCs. So much eye candy and misdirection at the LOS pre-snap. No huddles to keep your Defense on the field and prevent substituting to keep your D-Line fresh.
All that and the good teams are also running the ball well and staying balanced.
Until the League corrects course through better DC creativity I have a hard time seeing why Minnesota should focus too much on the Defense.
Smarter move in my mind would be to upgrade the Offense to be able to stand toe to toe with other Playoff Teams when their Offenses start hitting on all cylinders.
That starts at QB. Sam and Teddy have too big of question marks with their injuries and I'm not convinced either are or will be as good as Cousins. We've already seen Keenum's ceiling and it wasn't good enough.
You can sign Kirk, grab an OT or OG in the 1st and still get a pass rusher in the 2nd. There are older CBs in FA that can be had on the cheap that Mike can perform his voodoo reclamation thing on.
Dropping big bucks on Richardson, who failed to ignite Seattle's D-Line or Poe won't do enough to offset the fact that the Offense is still one level below the Elite teams.
This, so this...Too many question marks on the 3 qb's that were on the roster last year. Keep Sam or another vet for back-up to Cousins and do what we can to help the OL in FA/Draft.
Quote: @SmashmouthD said:
All I know is that we lost our last game of the season because we couldn't pressure the QB, and we couldn't stop pressure against our QB. Our D-Line wore down at the end of the season. And our OL couldn't get the job done.
Two turn-overs attributable to our OTs led to 14 points for the Eagles. And two long TDs by them were possible because our D-Line couldn't get home quickly, which allowed their receivers to run around downfield and play sandlot. That's a lotta points.
Yes, we need a QB, but we need at least one quality free agent and one high draft pick for the OL and DL. IMO, whichever you can get in free agency, you get the other in the draft. (As of now I'd prefer Richardson or Donald or maybe Poe, then draft an OT at #30).
We have at least three good options for a starting QB (Cousins, Keenum, Bridgewater). I'm not opposed to Cousins, but if signing him means we can't afford a quality free agent for the trenches, then I'm not interested.
I think the problem with the defense not getting pressure was a combination of Griffen having something wrong with his foot where he was not 100% and more importantly, the Vikings relying on about 6 players to rotate on their defensive line all season. Here are the snap counts for 2017 ...
| Player |
Team |
Position |
Def Snaps |
Def Snap Pct |
| 97-E.Griffen |
MIN |
DL |
795 |
79.70% |
| 99-D.Hunter |
MIN |
DL |
775 |
77.70% |
| 92-T.Johnson |
MIN |
DL |
675 |
67.60% |
| 98-L.Joseph |
MIN |
DL |
664 |
66.50% |
| 96-B.Robison |
MIN |
DL |
563 |
56.40% |
| 93-S.Stephen |
MIN |
DL |
384 |
38.50% |
| 91-S.Weatherly |
MIN |
DL |
89 |
8.90% |
| 94-J.Johnson |
MIN |
DL |
41 |
4.10% |
| 90-T.Bower |
MIN |
DL |
10 |
1.00% |
Here is how Philly split their reps ...
| Player |
Team |
Position |
Def Snaps |
Def Snap Pct |
| 55-B.Graham |
PHI |
DL |
666 |
64.60% |
| 91-F.Cox |
PHI |
DL |
608 |
59.00% |
| 75-V.Curry |
PHI |
DL |
578 |
56.10% |
| 56-C.Long |
PHI |
DL |
496 |
48.10% |
| 93-T.Jernigan |
PHI |
DL |
492 |
47.70% |
| 96-D.Barnett |
PHI |
DL |
424 |
41.10% |
| 94-B.Allen |
PHI |
DL |
422 |
40.90% |
| 97-D.Vaeao |
PHI |
DL |
230 |
22.30% |
| 98-E.Qualls |
PHI |
DL |
103 |
10.00% |
| 51-S.Means |
PHI |
DL |
53 |
5.10% |
| 74-J.Hamilton |
PHI |
DL |
44 |
4.30% |
Maybe the difference between 6 and 7 players is not significant but when you got all 4 Vikings starters playing more snaps than the leader on Philly, well, it is not too difficult to see a correlation. At least for me.
Zimmer needs to change his approach and play more people which may help later in the season.
The offensive line still needs some upgrades which they began last year. I can see an early draft pick and maybe a high priced free agent but there are only 2. Norwell and Pugh (who missed 13 games the last two years). Neither may make it to the market.
I think the defensive tackle position could use an upgrade and that may come in free agency as well but it will be expensive to get Richardson. He seems to want to stay in Seattle but also wants to test the market of Seattle does not come correct. I think he would be too expensive.
If they bring back Johnson and Stephen then they really only need to add one more defensive tackle either through free agency or the draft. Da'Ron Payne would be very nice in purple!
But no matter who they draft or sign as a free agent they need to play all of their linemen plenty of snaps during the season!
For me, the QB is the most important position and they have to get that first.
Qb and a dominant offensive line will take this team a long way.
Quote: @kmillard said:
Qb and a dominant offensive line will take this team a long way.
IT would rival 98 in record lol!
Better OL and Dalvin Cook going into Philly and I would have liked our chances...
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@ kmillard said:
Qb and a dominant offensive line will take this team a long way.
IT would rival 98 in record lol!
Better OL and Dalvin Cook going into Philly and I would have liked our chances...
Shore up the offensive line and have Cook and I like our chances too.
We weren't going to fix the line in one offseason. I expected it to take two seasons with a Wild card win with an 10-6 record. Now go get a RT and draft a G. Throw in a UT on the defensive line and we have the team to truly compete with the NFL.
The Vikings surpassed all expectations and I think we need to look at it as 2017 was house money and I didn't expect full readiness until 2018 anyhow. We will be going into 2018 with a better line on both sides of the ball and a healthy Cook.
Bring in a guy like Cousins... I think you have a recipe for greatness
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