Quote: @Norse said:
Keep in mind for the most part today he was playing againest 2nd and 3rd string recievers.
And last week he was covering jordie nelson...arguably one of the best in the game.
Quote: @dadevike said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
And yet, we had the third overall D last year, third against the pass...go figure...
http://www.nfl.com/stats/team?seasonId=2016&seasonType=&Submit=Go
Yeah but that does not mean that EVERY defensive player is playing great. Waynes is not terrible. Nobody is saying that. Those who refute that position are refuting a point not made. But he is the weakest link on the defense. I think only Barr was a higher pick than Waynes. (Maybe Newman?) I think his celing is pretty low. I suspect he won't ever be much better than he is now.
Waynes is in a tough position. Opposite a shut down corner, he gets a lot of attention from OCs. He's handling it remarkably well.
And he's improved every year. So I disagree completely that he's done improving. Rhodes is in his 5th season and is still improving. Clearly, he's better this year than he was last, his 4th season, which most would say was his breakout season. So it would be pretty silly to think that Waynes, in only his 3rd season, has hit his peak in this defense.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ dadevike said:
@"BarrNone55" said:
And yet, we had the third overall D last year, third against the pass...go figure...
http://www.nfl.com/stats/team?seasonId=2016&seasonType=&Submit=Go
Yeah but that does not mean that EVERY defensive player is playing great. Waynes is not terrible. Nobody is saying that. Those who refute that position are refuting a point not made. But he is the weakest link on the defense. I think only Barr was a higher pick than Waynes. (Maybe Newman?) I think his celing is pretty low. I suspect he won't ever be much better than he is now.
Waynes is in a tough position. Opposite a shut down corner, he gets a lot of attention from OCs. He's handling it remarkably well.
And he's improved every year. So I disagree completely that he's done improving. Rhodes is in his 5th season and is still improving. Clearly, he's better this year than he was last, his 4th season, which most would say was his breakout season. So it would be pretty silly to think that Waynes, in only his 3rd season, has hit his peak in this defense.
I agree he gets a lot of attention because of Rhodes, but at least he is not asked to cover the best receiver. That's Rhodes' job. Waynes is handling it, but I don't think it is "remarkably well." I hope he does continue to improve, but I'm not expecting much more from him anymore. It is not like with Rhodes who made significant improvements each of his first 3 seasons. Waynes' improvements are marginal. I am not sure Waynes has the attitude/aptitude to be a really good CB. Every now and then he shows real talent for the position. So I cannot say he does not have talent. But he gets beaten so often that you have to wonder what is going on.
Quote: @NodakViking said:
Waynes is getting what he needed most, more playing time. If he was a bad as some on hear think he wouldn't be starting and getting any praise from Zimmer. How does he intercept any passes when he "never" gets his head around? Rhodes in year three wasn't any better, remember him getting torched by Erin/abused by Jordy? He gets better with each game he starts.
He does have a serious problem getting his head around. And it is costing him. He could have defensed more balls if he would get his head around when the receiver shows his hands. HOWEVER, he isn't getting beat very often. There was one play yesterday where the receiver had a step on him and luckily it fell incomplete, but other than that he seemed to be in the pocket of the receiver pretty much all day I thought. I know we all watched him pretty much exclusively by default because... well the QB rarely threw at Rhodes man.
its amazing that we are 5-2 with the colossal heap of ineptitude we have in our secondary. half our starting Safeties and Corner backs are complete shit. its a sad testament to just how bad the talent pool is at for offensive coordinators that opposing teams havent been able to take advantage of the complete lack of talent we are running out there every Sunday at the positions opposite Rhodes and Smith.
Nice hyperbole there, Jimmy.
Look, I've been as big of a supporter of Waynes as anyone on here. Predicted the team would draft him (though Wetlander stole the idea from me and posted it first) and argued that it was the right move.
But man does he still have a confidence issue. My dad and I counted at least 6 times yesterday where on 3rd and long he was giving a cushion that was past the first down marker.
You could argue he's doing that because he has the speed to close the gap if his man runs to the sricks and turns for the catch. Except that isn't what happens. He's either late to break up the pass or still maintaining the cushion.
It's like he's determined not to get beat deep no matter what. Could be that's what he's being coached to do. If so, that's a shame. Elite CBs still get beat deep on occasion. They shrug it off just like Elite Closers in baseball.
Yeah, not turning his head bugs me but I look around the League and see a lot of young CBs with that problem. It's the big cushions that really concern me. Especially on 3rd downs.
But at the end of the day it was still a good pick. Why? 50% of First Rounders bust. Trae is certainly not a bust. He's a legit #2 Corner on a very good Defense.
No, he's not going to be Rhodes Jr. like I was projecting. But an extremely consistent tackler in the Run Game and against screens that gets his fair share of INTs ia good enough and there's always the chance that he develops more confidence and eliminates the big cushions.
And let's not even bring up the alternative. Marcus Peters is an undisciplined player that gambles constantly. He would have become a permanent resident in the Mike Zimmer doghouse. The selfish Personal Fouls aren't winning him any fans here in KC either.
Would you hope for more than League Average taking someone that high in the Draft? Of course. But considering what a crapshoot the Draft is and how Minnesota picked a virtual can't miss LT much higher that didn't pan out I'm fine with where Waynes is at.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
Nice hyperbole there, Jimmy.
Look, I've been as big of a supporter of Waynes as anyone on here. Predicted the team would draft him (though Wetlander stole the idea from me and posted it first) and argued that it was the right move.
But man does he still have a confidence issue. My dad and I counted at least 6 times yesterday where on 3rd and long he was giving a cushion that was past the first down marker.
You could argue he's doing that because he has the speed to close the gap if his man runs to the sricks and turns for the catch. Except that isn't what happens. He's either late to break up the pass or still maintaining the cushion.
It's like he's determined not to get beat deep no matter what. Could be that's what he's being coached to do. If so, that's a shame. Elite CBs still get beat deep on occasion. They shrug it off just like Elite Closers in baseball.
Yeah, not turning his head bugs me but I look around the League and see a lot of young CBs with that problem. It's the big cushions that really concern me. Especially on 3rd downs.
But at the end of the day it was still a good pick. Why? 50% of First Rounders bust. Trae is certainly not a bust. He's a legit #2 Corner on a very good Defense.
No, he's not going to be Rhodes Jr. like I was projecting. But an extremely consistent tackler in the Run Game and against screens that gets his fair share of INTs ia good enough and there's always the chance that he develops more confidence and eliminates the big cushions.
And let's not even bring up the alternative. Marcus Peters is an undisciplined player that gambles constantly. He would have become a permanent resident in the Mike Zimmer doghouse. The selfish Personal Fouls aren't winning him any fans here in KC either.
Would you hope for more than League Average taking someone that high in the Draft? Of course. But considering what a crapshoot the Draft is and how Minnesota picked a virtual can't miss LT much higher that didn't pan out I'm fine with where Waynes is at.
I figured that if he was such a fuck up as some make him out to be and not showing the growth that some say, or not doing things the way Zim wants them done... he wouldnt be out there. he is in a tough position, with Rhodes on the other side he knows they are coming his way and often. I have been very happy with the growth I have seen from him, the head getting around will come with time and confidence.
Quote: @FSUVike said:
Nice hyperbole there, Jimmy.
Look, I've been as big of a supporter of Waynes as anyone on here. Predicted the team would draft him (though Wetlander stole the idea from me and posted it first) and argued that it was the right move.
But man does he still have a confidence issue. My dad and I counted at least 6 times yesterday where on 3rd and long he was giving a cushion that was past the first down marker.
You could argue he's doing that because he has the speed to close the gap if his man runs to the sricks and turns for the catch. Except that isn't what happens. He's either late to break up the pass or still maintaining the cushion.
It's like he's determined not to get beat deep no matter what. Could be that's what he's being coached to do. If so, that's a shame. Elite CBs still get beat deep on occasion. They shrug it off just like Elite Closers in baseball.
If he had serious confidence issues and wasn't playing his position, he wouldn't be starting. Not saying he doesn't have improvements to make, but seriously, if he wasn't playing the defense called, he wouldn't be out there.
Look at our defense. Brees, Rothlisberger, Winston, Flacco, Stafford, Rodgers (brief but unproductive). How have they all fared? Not very well. Our defense is playing lights out. Alexander and Waynes are the "weak links" if we have any. But they aren't getting exploited for much, so I tend to think our defense is playing as Zimmer asks them to do. This isn't the Tampa 2 with 10 yard cushions.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ FSUVike said:
Nice hyperbole there, Jimmy.
Look, I've been as big of a supporter of Waynes as anyone on here. Predicted the team would draft him (though Wetlander stole the idea from me and posted it first) and argued that it was the right move.
But man does he still have a confidence issue. My dad and I counted at least 6 times yesterday where on 3rd and long he was giving a cushion that was past the first down marker.
You could argue he's doing that because he has the speed to close the gap if his man runs to the sricks and turns for the catch. Except that isn't what happens. He's either late to break up the pass or still maintaining the cushion.
It's like he's determined not to get beat deep no matter what. Could be that's what he's being coached to do. If so, that's a shame. Elite CBs still get beat deep on occasion. They shrug it off just like Elite Closers in baseball.
Yeah, not turning his head bugs me but I look around the League and see a lot of young CBs with that problem. It's the big cushions that really concern me. Especially on 3rd downs.
But at the end of the day it was still a good pick. Why? 50% of First Rounders bust. Trae is certainly not a bust. He's a legit #2 Corner on a very good Defense.
No, he's not going to be Rhodes Jr. like I was projecting. But an extremely consistent tackler in the Run Game and against screens that gets his fair share of INTs ia good enough and there's always the chance that he develops more confidence and eliminates the big cushions.
And let's not even bring up the alternative. Marcus Peters is an undisciplined player that gambles constantly. He would have become a permanent resident in the Mike Zimmer doghouse. The selfish Personal Fouls aren't winning him any fans here in KC either.
Would you hope for more than League Average taking someone that high in the Draft? Of course. But considering what a crapshoot the Draft is and how Minnesota picked a virtual can't miss LT much higher that didn't pan out I'm fine with where Waynes is at.
I figured that if he was such a fuck up as some make him out to be and not showing the growth that some say, or not doing things the way Zim wants them done... he wouldnt be out there. he is in a tough position, with Rhodes on the other side he knows they are coming his way and often. I have been very happy with the growth I have seen from him, the head getting around will come with time and confidence.
Don't you think if the coaches/zimmer wanted Waynes up closer to his guy they would demand that. My conclusion is that they are fine with him playing off. But I am interested in your opinions as very knowledgeable posters. Bascially, are they giving Waynes free reign on how far to play off???
Quote: @minny65 said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ FSUVike said:
Nice hyperbole there, Jimmy.
Look, I've been as big of a supporter of Waynes as anyone on here. Predicted the team would draft him (though Wetlander stole the idea from me and posted it first) and argued that it was the right move.
But man does he still have a confidence issue. My dad and I counted at least 6 times yesterday where on 3rd and long he was giving a cushion that was past the first down marker.
You could argue he's doing that because he has the speed to close the gap if his man runs to the sricks and turns for the catch. Except that isn't what happens. He's either late to break up the pass or still maintaining the cushion.
It's like he's determined not to get beat deep no matter what. Could be that's what he's being coached to do. If so, that's a shame. Elite CBs still get beat deep on occasion. They shrug it off just like Elite Closers in baseball.
Yeah, not turning his head bugs me but I look around the League and see a lot of young CBs with that problem. It's the big cushions that really concern me. Especially on 3rd downs.
But at the end of the day it was still a good pick. Why? 50% of First Rounders bust. Trae is certainly not a bust. He's a legit #2 Corner on a very good Defense.
No, he's not going to be Rhodes Jr. like I was projecting. But an extremely consistent tackler in the Run Game and against screens that gets his fair share of INTs ia good enough and there's always the chance that he develops more confidence and eliminates the big cushions.
And let's not even bring up the alternative. Marcus Peters is an undisciplined player that gambles constantly. He would have become a permanent resident in the Mike Zimmer doghouse. The selfish Personal Fouls aren't winning him any fans here in KC either.
Would you hope for more than League Average taking someone that high in the Draft? Of course. But considering what a crapshoot the Draft is and how Minnesota picked a virtual can't miss LT much higher that didn't pan out I'm fine with where Waynes is at.
I figured that if he was such a fuck up as some make him out to be and not showing the growth that some say, or not doing things the way Zim wants them done... he wouldnt be out there. he is in a tough position, with Rhodes on the other side he knows they are coming his way and often. I have been very happy with the growth I have seen from him, the head getting around will come with time and confidence.
Don't you think if the coaches/zimmer wanted Waynes up closer to his guy they would demand that. My conclusion is that they are fine with him playing off. But I am interested in your opinions as very knowledgeable posters. Bascially, are they giving Waynes free reign on how far to play off???
Two words. Pattern Matching.
Zimmer has the D playing at an unbelievable level. Remember the drama in the preseason, how bad our DBs were. Zimmer said they were working on stuff. So, if Trae is playing off his man, IMO Zimmer wants him to. They are giving the offense a certain look, trying to draw them in, or in some way dictate where they are going. Rhodes shut down Adams against GB. Waynes did damn well against Nelson. But if Zimmer wants to take half the field away with Rhodes and roll safeties over the other half, it must be a good idea. Our D is holding teams to minimal gains per snap. We get off the field on 3rd down, so that cushion isn't causing 1st downs.
I have no idea what Zim is up to, but if getting the offense to throw it short to the #2 WR keeps the defense playing like they are, good for Trae. He isn't playing for personal glory, he is playing the defense called.
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