Gotta Admit, a Veep Debate Would be Interesting...

[badgervike]

As more members of the EU lean in, and NATO's newest members seem to hate Putin at least as much as anyone short of Ukraine, I don't see the aid withering away as quickly...particularly from the countries familiar with that horror show.

Russia has arguably destroyed a generation or more of their young men, which is chiseling away at his hold on power as much as any successes Ukraine has. The losses in equipment, material, and especially the "technological might" reputation of Russia are unsustainable to them as well. I'm genuinely surprised that a member of his inner circle hasn't cancelled him by now, as the sanctions and casualties weigh more heavily.

It's not the $$$, it's the weapons.  Without the US assistance, the weapons advantages go away.   I guess the Ukrainians could buy weapons from Afghanistan...they seem to be the largest weapons provider in the World at present with their booty of arms left behind.....thanks to Biden/Harris.

You lose support from the Americans, the rest of the support dimishes and even a diminished Russia can walk all over Ukraine without foreign arms support..  Ukraine isn't going to win with domestic drone production alone.  The newfound NATO members can circle the wagons behind the NATO flag to keep the conflict from spreading beyond Ukraine.  The US isn't the only one questioning support for a war with no end.  And we saw how Harris would handle it...

And with the real shit starting to go down today in the Middle East with Iran finally getting directly involved...it will be increasingly difficult to give much attention to Ukraine while all hell breaks lose in the Middle East.

[Zanary]

It's not the $$$, it's the weapons.  Without the US assistance, the weapons advantages go away.   I guess the Ukrainians could buy weapons from Afghanistan...they seem to be the largest weapons provider in the World at present with their booty of arms left behind.....thanks to Biden/Harris.

You lose support from the Americans, the rest of the support dimishes and even a diminished Russia can walk all over Ukraine without foreign arms support..  Ukraine isn't going to win with domestic drone production alone.  The newfound NATO members can circle the wagons behind the NATO flag to keep the conflict from spreading beyond Ukraine.  The US isn't the only one questioning support for a war with no end.  And we saw how Harris would handle it...

The Germans, French, British, Poles, and others have weapons they've already offered and/or delivered, which you seem to discount, Russia has suffered massive losses in their own munitions very recently. Russia keeps landing missiles/shells closer to NATO territories, this might be bigger/sooner regardless.

Russia can't afford the "war without end", either...and neither can its prime "allies".

As for how things are handled, the date of the Afghan handover was decided by his citric stupidity, with a fraction of the conditions that it should have included. Yes, the generals in charge absolutely s**t the bed (with Brandon likely confused, and just nodding), but the situation was defined by orange boi.

Among his truly "challenged" moments was pressuring the "resignation" of Mattis.

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Back to the original topic:

Even CNN says Walz' statements about his China visits are puffed-up BS.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/01/politics/...index.html

[badgervike]

As more members of the EU lean in, and NATO's newest members seem to hate Putin at least as much as anyone short of Ukraine, I don't see the aid withering away as quickly...particularly from the countries familiar with that horror show.

Russia has arguably destroyed a generation or more of their young men, which is chiseling away at his hold on power as much as any successes Ukraine has. The losses in equipment, material, and especially the "technological might" reputation of Russia are unsustainable to them as well. I'm genuinely surprised that a member of his inner circle hasn't cancelled him by now, as the sanctions and casualties weigh more heavily.

41% of the EU supports a treaty settlement...and 31% support recapture of territory.  I don't see that number changing in support of recapture...quite the opposite as people weary of the war and the other wars.    The US support is roughly equal to all other countries combined and 75% of the armament so withdrawal of US support would have a profound effect on the Ukraine's ability to wage war.   Many of those that have offered aid have done so with the promise of replacement arms...usually to replace older / Russian made arms.

https://bfpg.co.uk/2024/02/west-support-...-years-on/

[JimmyinSD]

41% of the EU supports a treaty settlement...and 31% support recapture of territory.  I don't see that number changing in support of recapture...quite the opposite as people weary of the war and the other wars.    The US support is roughly equal to all other countries combined and 75% of the armament so withdrawal of US support would have a profound effect on the Ukraine's ability to wage war.   Many of those that have offered aid have done so with the promise of replacement arms...usually to replace older / Russian made arms.

https://bfpg.co.uk/2024/02/west-support-...-years-on/

I agree, the support for the Ukraine war is marginal at best, everyone has seen that the only movement is the US war machine hauling bags of money to the bank. Nobody in power really gives a shit about Ukraine and now that the country is on its ass financially and people are noticing the debt ( and interest payments ) its a major political hot potato and I find it highly unlikely that the US will still be involved financially ( or with arms ) in 18 to 24 months. Its not our war, and as such we shouldnt be paying for it. If NATO wants to take the reigns... fucken let em, but at the same time, the US needs to be looking long and hard at our level of financial support to NATO as well. We have to maintain a strong global military presence, but that doesnt mean we have to be throwing money at endless wars. ( and yes I am also talking about Israel )

[Zanary]

I agree,  the support for the Ukraine war is marginal at best,  everyone has seen that the only movement is the US war machine hauling bags of money to the bank.  Nobody in power really gives a shit about Ukraine and now that the country is on its ass financially and people are noticing the debt ( and interest payments ) its a major political hot potato and I find it highly unlikely that the US will still be involved financially ( or with arms ) in 18 to 24 months.  Its not our war,  and as such we shouldnt be paying for it.  If NATO wants to take the reigns... fucken let em,  but at the same time,  the US needs to be looking long and hard at our level of financial support to NATO as well.  We have to maintain a strong global military presence, but that doesnt mean we have to be throwing money at endless wars.  ( and yes I am also talking about Israel )

Short sighted as hell.

The pattern of "f**k our allies" among the orange-encrusted grows and grows since his time in office, yet (as mentioned) it shows ridiculous ignorance toward both history and principles, beyond which...Israel is MASSIVE source of intel in the Middle East, involving not just our various adversaries (who seed discord very happily over here, so pretending the war is just there is mindless drool of the worst kind) but also for everything involving our trade/shipping, the entire world of finance, and all forms of technology (medical, military, and in every modern cell phone).

So, yeah, not a fan of that outlook.

[JimmyinSD]

Short sighted as hell.

The pattern of "f**k our allies" among the orange-encrusted grows and grows since his time in office, yet (as mentioned) it shows ridiculous ignorance toward both history and principles, beyond which...Israel is MASSIVE source of intel in the Middle East, involving not just our various adversaries (who seed discord very happily over here, so pretending the war is just there is mindless drool of the worst kind) but also for everything involving our trade/shipping, the entire world of finance, and all forms of technology (medical, military, and in every modern cell phone).

So, yeah, not a fan of that outlook.

I didnt say cut ties with Israel, but we can certainly take a lesser role without destroying our relationship with them, we just dont need to be funding these wars.

[Zanary]

I didnt say cut ties with Israel,  but we can certainly take a lesser role without destroying our relationship with them,  we just dont need to be funding these wars.

Despite the rhetoric thrown around, it's hardly just us.

ON THE ORIGINAL TOPIC AGAIN...

...I give props to Vance, he must've gone to the same coach as Harris, in the sheer improvement in his message/delivery. Walz looked flustered and defensive, and some of those gaffes...wow.

Vance is right, the gop has destroyed the trust with much of America, and its messaging has been pure s**t with a lot of women and the like for years. If they want to quit sending those voters away, they need to face their failings.

[JimmyinSD]

Despite the rhetoric thrown around, it's hardly just us.

ON THE ORIGINAL TOPIC AGAIN...

...I give props to Vance, he must've gone to the same coach as Harris, in the sheer improvement in his message/delivery. Walz looked flustered and defensive, and some of those gaffes...wow.

Vance is right, the gop has destroyed the trust with much of America, and its messaging has been pure s**t with a lot of women and the like for years. If they want to quit sending those voters away, they need to face their failings.

I honestly dont care if it only us or others are pitching in ( although based on how many of our european allies are failing to meet their expectations with NATO, I have to assume we are once again doing the heavy lifting ) We cant afford to be playing daddy war bucks at this point with our debt and interest being so out of control. We need to get our own shit in order before we can worry about others, especially those that are unstable in the best of times.

[JimmyinSD]

as far as the debate goes... why do conservative candidates ever agree to be in anything ( debates, interviews, other ) where the liberal lapdog media is controlling the story? "fact check" is the new word for fake news, I give a standing ovation to JD for coming over the top rope in the first hour to fact check the fact checker, what a fucking joke. I thought Walz did ok in the first hour, but in an open debate I think he would have gotten drilled, he left some balls on the tee for JD if JD would have been given a chance to refute some of those comments, however I must have missed some pretty big gaffes in hour 2, even some of the liberal outlets are saying Vance was the better on the night.

[badgervike]

As you said Z, Vance did a nice job against another stacked moderator panel.  Unlike Trump, he stays on message extremely well and is fast on his feet.  I fear, however, that debates are a thing of the past unless we can figure a way to do them in a fair manner.  The Democrats have already refused to debate on Fox and Right leaning news sources and I think Republicans will soon refuse to deal with the inherent dishonesty of the MSM.  Can you really expect news sources that run 90%+ positive news on one candidate and 90% negative on the other candidate to be able to be non-partisan?  The natural would be to have a PBS or a prestigious University host a debate but that's just more of the same as they clearly have a Liberal bias.  If you watched the realtime reactions last night, the preloaded questions would immediately give a 10% bump to Walz...before he or Vance had a chance to answer.  At least they didn't do the massive amount of fact checking on one candidate and attempted to keep both candidates on question last night...unlike the Presidential debate

I hope they find a way to fix the very broken debate system...maybe a panel from a variety of sources with questions approved by the panel prior to the debate (and maybe a third party candidate or two).  Unless the debate process is fixed, I think we miss the opportunity to hear the candidates real views in a fair, unbiased manner and make educated decisions.  I think it's highly important particularly given one party has refused to answer questions that aren't pre-screened and edited from friendly sources.  Will Harris or Walz ever have a real news conference?  Certainly Biden wasn't doing them prior (or now).