Quote: j@MaroonBells said:
Kurt Warner nails it...
I know many of you LOVE college football, but as I start to dive into these college QBs, it’s hard for me to even watch: very few play on schedule, the pass concepts are a mess most of the time, they run the same play over & over, a million bubble screens, can’t find many concepts that translate to next level… and then ppl are asked to figure out how good they will be at next level!? (Nearly impossible in my mind)
For me CJ Stroud is a great example - obviously really good in college & OSU runs more pro-style concepts than most but they didn’t ask him to process & get ball out as quickly as he did last year in HOU - so I had no idea he would be so good at processing so fast! He’s better in NFL than what we got to see in college, but many times you just don’t know until you know!
Respectfully, I think he is wrong. There a couple of mistakes (at least in my opinion) that NFL talking heads and personel people make that trips them
1. Prior seasons - paying a lot of attention to prior seasons invites a host of issues. This is how the Ponders of the world get drafted. He had a NFL arm. He injured his shoulder and it clearly didn’t come back. Yet Spielman used a first round pick betting it would, even after a year of it clearly not. You can really get into a paralysis by analysis going back. You don’t ignore it, but you remember these are kids and they are still growing into what they can be. It’s a big reason I like to see kids stay in an extra year. You get a look at how they’ve improved while growing closer to what they will be in the NFL.
2. Focusing on their college offenses. College ball is much different than the NFL for a QB. So I personally ignore the offenses and solely pay attention to what they will do most often in the NFL to be successful. The most successful NFL QB’s have a few common traits regardless of who they are. The buzzword of the day is making plays out of structure. In my opinion, this is an incredibly stupid thing to focus on. Making plays out of structure means you didn’t do your job to begin with or your guys didn’t. There is a time and place for it, but in a given game, you should only need to do it a handful of times.
The most succeful guys I see hit short to intermediate routes on time and with good ball placement. They work through reads quickly and usually know where they are going right away. They can diagnose the defense and have a plan. This is what I want to see with a college QB.
I’ll write more, but gotta run.
Quote: @Havoc1649 said:
j@ MaroonBells said:
Kurt Warner nails it...
I know many of you LOVE college football, but as I start to dive into these college QBs, it’s hard for me to even watch: very few play on schedule, the pass concepts are a mess most of the time, they run the same play over & over, a million bubble screens, can’t find many concepts that translate to next level… and then ppl are asked to figure out how good they will be at next level!? (Nearly impossible in my mind)
For me CJ Stroud is a great example - obviously really good in college & OSU runs more pro-style concepts than most but they didn’t ask him to process & get ball out as quickly as he did last year in HOU - so I had no idea he would be so good at processing so fast! He’s better in NFL than what we got to see in college, but many times you just don’t know until you know!
Respectfully, I think he is wrong. There a couple of mistakes (at least in my opinion) that NFL talking heads and personel people make that trips them
1. Prior seasons - paying a lot of attention to prior seasons invites a host of issues. This is how the Ponders of the world get drafted. He had a NFL arm. He injured his shoulder and it clearly didn’t come back. Yet Spielman used a first round pick betting it would, even after a year of it clearly not. You can really get into a paralysis by analysis going back. You don’t ignore it, but you remember these are kids and they are still growing into what they can be. It’s a big reason I like to see kids stay in an extra year. You get a look at how they’ve improved while growing closer to what they will be in the NFL.
2. Focusing on their college offenses. College ball is much different than the NFL for a QB. So I personally ignore the offenses and solely pay attention to what they will do most often in the NFL to be successful. The most successful NFL QB’s have a few common traits regardless of who they are. The buzzword of the day is making plays out of structure. In my opinion, this is an incredibly stupid thing to focus on. Making plays out of structure means you didn’t do your job to begin with or your guys didn’t. There is a time and place for it, but in a given game, you should only need to do it a handful of times.
The most succeful guys I see hit short to intermediate routes on time and with good ball placement. They work through reads quickly and usually know where they are going right away. They can diagnose the defense and have a plan. This is what I want to see with a college QB.
I’ll write more, but gotta run.
I agree 100%. But I don't discount the difficulty of evaluating college performance to pro potential. There is obviously a degree of luck involved.
I look for innate accuracy as a pre-requisite. Most all of the greats have it.
Problem is, evaluation is complex with multiple factors involved. But they have to check certain boxes when drafted, or they aren't qualified.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
If Cousins signs with the Falcons, who have an offense that appears to be a QB away, and he takes that team deep into the playoffs, while the Vikings draft the next Bryce Young, Zach Wilson, Trubisky, Rosen or Lance, there is going to be a lot of egg on the face of this organization.
Why would there be egg? Atlanta is supposedly where we were when we signed Cousins, ( look how that turned out with him) our team needs large talent infusions at many positions before being a true contender, which can take several offseasons.
Sure some will say it could have been us, but they are likely wrong if the stared scenario were to play out. Kirk didn't make the difference for the Vikings, and he likely wouldn't be the deciding factor for the Falcons. Not to mention, what about the excuse of him not getting ot done due to having to learn a new system with a new OC?
If they want to over pay, that's the game, and maybe they have a great season, but it would be naive to say it could have been the Viikings if they had only paid more when there is so much more to fix here.
_______________________________
The Vikings offensive line when Kirk was signed was atrocious. It went: Reiff, Compton, Elflein, Remmers and Rashod Hill. From the fairly average 2017 line, we'd lost our best offensive lineman (Joe Berger) to retirement, Nick Easton to a season ending injury and Remmers to an ill-advised move to RG. We started to rebuild our line that year, but then the defense started to falter, finishing 27th, 30th and 31st over the next three seasons. The line is now complete and BFlo improved the defense from 31st to 12th. Suffice to say, both of these teams are contenders with Cousins at QB. Neither is without him.
But if you think everything's going to be hunky dory in Minnyland if Cousins turns the Falcons into a contender (he will) while the Vikings slag through the next Trey Lance or a Zach Wilson, you're being naive. There will be Wilves at the door.
the general notion when we signed Kirk was that Keenum was the problem ( (I argued against signing Kirk then for the same reasons I do now, we dont have the OL for an immobile QB like Cousins ) I know the OL was an issue back then, just like I know it is now, and my arguments havent changed because we now have a 2nd GM and Coach that fail to see that the game is won from the trenches and paying big money to a statue pocket passer with a shit IOL is just pissing money down their legs.
as far as wolves at the door, they should be in the fucking house since kirks been here 6 years, we still have IOL issues, except now the rest of the roster ( minus WR ) has gone to shit, and we are much further from competing for a Lombardi than we were when we signed him. Adding Kirk fixed nothing and changed nothing except his bank account. we still need to fix the OL and we still need to be shopping for a QB.
"the line is now complete" are you fucking kidding me? Are you still of the notion that Bradbury is a competent NFL center? We need a new center and likely at least 1 new OG, the line is far from complete, especially when they will need continuity time to really see if they are worth a shit as a unity.
The line was complete two years ago, when every player on it was under 26 and taken in the 1st or 2nd round. Good, bad or otherwise, that’s a rebuild. Now, obviously, not every draft pick in a rebuild is going to be 100% successful. But it’s also obvious that our line is quite a bit better than you think it is. I know you don’t trust PFF but they also ranked top 10 by ESPN, SIS, PFN and Player Profiler, among others.
Either way, the line improved a lot over the last two years, and it’s a helluva lot better than it was in 2018. But as I’ve said before, I think there’s an even chance we release Bradbury and try to upgrade the center position. For whatever reason—maybe the QB rotation, maybe his back—he was a top 10 center the first half of the season and a bottom 10 center the second half of the season.
But even you can’t possibly believe the Vikings would’ve missed the playoffs with a healthy Kirk Cousins, considering he was the NFL’s leading passer at the time and they had just beaten the 49ers and Packers without Justin Jefferson.
I don't give a crap about sneaking into the playoffs, this team was not going to compete, even with Cousins, with our IOL.
And simply having bodies at positions does not make the line complete. This OL, specifically the 3 interior positions are not good, certainly not good enough to win multiple playoff games.
Sneak in? The Vikings almost snuck in WITHOUT Cousins. They were alive in week 18 despite changing their QB FIVE times and losing their best player for 7 full games and parts of 2 others. Ya think they might’ve done a tad better with a healthy Kirko? Yeah, me too. Don’t forget, he had just thrown for 800 yards against the 49ers' NFL-best defense and the Packers in Green Bay.
and they had also started the year 1-what ever, they were not a complete team on the level of those that were playing in the final couple weeks, but if you want to think beating a dinged niners team in the regular season meant we were somehow going to do the same in the post season with what we had.... go right on ahead thinking that. I saw it differently.
Oh that's right. Never mind Justin Jefferson didn't play, the 49ers and were dinged!
wow.... its amazing our trophy case is empty with all the talent you see around this team every single year.
The truth looks like rose-colored fantasy to those who see everything through shit-colored lenses. LOL....yep, you are the one seeing it clearly....
Quote: @jargomcfargo said:
@ Havoc1649 said:
j@ MaroonBells said:
Kurt Warner nails it...
I know many of you LOVE college football, but as I start to dive into these college QBs, it’s hard for me to even watch: very few play on schedule, the pass concepts are a mess most of the time, they run the same play over & over, a million bubble screens, can’t find many concepts that translate to next level… and then ppl are asked to figure out how good they will be at next level!? (Nearly impossible in my mind)
For me CJ Stroud is a great example - obviously really good in college & OSU runs more pro-style concepts than most but they didn’t ask him to process & get ball out as quickly as he did last year in HOU - so I had no idea he would be so good at processing so fast! He’s better in NFL than what we got to see in college, but many times you just don’t know until you know!
Respectfully, I think he is wrong. There a couple of mistakes (at least in my opinion) that NFL talking heads and personel people make that trips them
1. Prior seasons - paying a lot of attention to prior seasons invites a host of issues. This is how the Ponders of the world get drafted. He had a NFL arm. He injured his shoulder and it clearly didn’t come back. Yet Spielman used a first round pick betting it would, even after a year of it clearly not. You can really get into a paralysis by analysis going back. You don’t ignore it, but you remember these are kids and they are still growing into what they can be. It’s a big reason I like to see kids stay in an extra year. You get a look at how they’ve improved while growing closer to what they will be in the NFL.
2. Focusing on their college offenses. College ball is much different than the NFL for a QB. So I personally ignore the offenses and solely pay attention to what they will do most often in the NFL to be successful. The most successful NFL QB’s have a few common traits regardless of who they are. The buzzword of the day is making plays out of structure. In my opinion, this is an incredibly stupid thing to focus on. Making plays out of structure means you didn’t do your job to begin with or your guys didn’t. There is a time and place for it, but in a given game, you should only need to do it a handful of times.
The most succeful guys I see hit short to intermediate routes on time and with good ball placement. They work through reads quickly and usually know where they are going right away. They can diagnose the defense and have a plan. This is what I want to see with a college QB.
I’ll write more, but gotta run.
I agree 100%. But I don't discount the difficulty of evaluating college performance to pro potential. There is obviously a degree of luck involved.
I look for innate accuracy as a pre-requisite. Most all of the greats have it.
Problem is, evaluation is complex with multiple factors involved. But they have to check certain boxes when drafted, or they aren't qualified.
if you want the on script guy... Penix is your man, if the receiver is open and his line gives him a few beats for the play to develop, I dont know that there is a better option.... except that doesnt seem to happen with enough regularity for Vikings QBs so I would prefer to see somebody that hasnt shown the injury history he has.
3. To continue, I think sometimes when scouts aren’t seeing a lot of issues, they essentially create them. I remember a guy all over Mahomes when he was coming out because he wasn’t athletic enough and too slow. Never mind his tape showed it was not an actual issue and that his field vision made up for any potential problems. Sure he took some sacks, but his tape was unreal. The guy had to find something wrong with him so there you go. Oh and he played in the Airaid system and others hadn’t been great coming out of it - another negative even though that’s clearly an irrational belief. Each person is different and it matters not what the last guy did. These are just a few examples of how NFL front offices get in their own way. I get it, they’re the ones with the job in the line, but sometimes a guy needs to take a step back and simply watch the player when he throws NFL throws.
The basics:
1. Is the arm strong enough to deal with NFL speed?
2. Is accuracy there - if it’s an issue in college it tends to carry over to some extent?
3. Are they responsible for taking a lot of sacks?
4. Can he simply see and do? This seems like, at least in my opinion, something scouts and talking heads don’t pay enough attention to.
These are the things I look at. It would definitely help to interview them, but to me tape is the most important thing there is.
What I find so interesting about Warner saying this is he was one of the best there was at hitting his guys on time and with placement. I have to wonder if part of what he is saying is he sees guys who’s tape does not match their status and he doesn’t get why they are where they are? In that respect, I am with him.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
Jets have given Zach Wilson permission to seek a trade. Might be worth taking a swing at if we can't land what we want in the draft. We'll need a reclamation project of some type to back up Cousins
![[Image: cj1nw2biy24w.jpg]](https://vikefans.com/vfforums/uploads/editor/an/cj1nw2biy24w.jpg)
The #Vikings interviewed J.J. McCarthy and here’s what he had to say according to @BenGoessling:
“Coach O’Connell led the whole thing. Everything they talked about wanting out of a QB aligns with what I want. Just being able to get on the board with them, go through their plays, it was special.”
Will Caleb Williams experience an Aaron Rodgers-like fall in the draft?
He doesn't have an agent. He declined to throw. He declined to take a physical. He declined to provide medical records, which no player has done before. One former scout has removed him from his board, saying "I've seen and heard enough. In short, he’s an elite athlete, who’s underdeveloped as a quarterback."
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
Oh that's right. Never mind Justin Jefferson didn't play, the 49ers and were dinged!
wow.... its amazing our trophy case is empty with all the talent you see around this team every single year.
2023 Vikings
With JJ in the lineup: 2-8
Without JJ in the lineup: 5-2
Last 17 games with Kirk and JJ in the lineup: 9-8
JJ is fun to watch but no NFL team builds a contender around a wideout. Once we pay him 40 mil/yr it will only get harder to get to the goal.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
Will Caleb Williams experience an Aaron Rodgers-like fall in the draft?
He doesn't have an agent. He declined to throw. He declined to take a physical. He declined to provide medical records, which no player has done before. One former scout has removed him from his board, saying "I've seen and heard enough. In short, he’s an elite athlete, who’s underdeveloped as a quarterback."
This comes on the heels of him making noise about refusing to play for the Bears. And apparently his dad is an issue of sorts as well. And then there was the report that he expected whatever team drafted him to give him a % stake of club ownership. It kinda sounds like a team drafting him is taking on a head case who is full of himself.
I watched some video of him and here is what I wrote:
Good arm, sometimes overthrows deep targets. Doesn't lead receivers. Moves well in the pocket, has good awareness of where the rush is coming from, at times mad escapability--watch at the 3:41 mark in the video link below. This can go bad at times, see 4:40 of same. Throws sidearm and off platform too much, is not as effective on these throws but seems enamored of making them frequently-plays hero ball sometimes. More accurate on short/intermediate routes, can throw with touch as well. Shows ability to get rid of the ball on busted plays, knows when to slide. Locks on his first read most of the time but does look to other targets sometimes, especially when flushed. Takes way too long to throw which won't work in the NFL. A ton of physical ability but I don't see elite processing speed or ability to run a 2 minute drill effectively (see end of video). A likely mid-tier NFL starter.
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