Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
No, meant the IOL sucked ass in pass pro in 22, and they ran it back in 23, that's called not addressing it. Sure some believe the answer is keep doing the same thing over and over and it will fix itself through continuity, I just didn't buy it then, and I still don't.
![[Image: xe4bb99dy78d.jpeg]](https://vikefans.com/vfforums/uploads/editor/n6/xe4bb99dy78d.jpeg)
do you actually believe that? in your expert opinion, do you think the Vikings IOL is adequate? PFF is showing them as having a 100 grade, are they really the best oline in the league or is PFF full of shit? I tend to lean towards the later, or there is a lot of context to be explained here.
I think the Vikings offensive line is well above average. I think if you watch other NFL games you see that pretty clearly. The thing about this graphic is that it doesn't just consider PFF. It's a composite of PFF, the SIS ranking and the ESPN win rate. It's also just pass blocking because that's what you mentioned in your post. The same composite ranked the Vikings run blocking 22nd.
Also, this was after week 15 and the Vikings OL was terrible at the end of the year. I haven't seen an updated version. But FWIW, at the end of the season PFF ranked the Vikings offensive line (pass and run) 12th in the NFL.
ive seen enough other games in the playoffs to know that our OL is no where near the top of the damn league in anything positive. its the PFF grade that fucks up your composite rankings, that 100 for pass blocking is the most absurd thing I have seen in a long time on here. that is saying the Vikings are the best pass blocking team in the league? No fucking way, I saw a stat somewhere that listed QB sacks allowed and the Vikings were in the lower 1/3 of the league with 2.8 sacks per game allowed, and they were actually worse in 2023 than in 2022 by .2 per game.
its ok, you can be wrong once in a while, you stuck to your convictions on the OL jelling and improving from 22 to 23 through continuity, which typically I would agree if we had decent pieces in place, but Cleveland hadnt impressed every since they flipped him from RG to LG, Bradbury has never impressed except for a few rare run plays they he was able to get downfield and blow up a DB, and Ingram is so inconsistent that about all you can say is win some lose some, yes they move on from Cook but I dont think that was enough to account for the decline in the run game, so not only did they not do shit in pass pro, they were pathetic in the run game as well, if it werent for the studs making big plays in the passing game our O would likely be ranked at the bottom as well.
if this team is going to continue with an immobile aging QB, they have to fix that IOL and do so with guys that can anchor as well as drive so we can at least find league average in both run and pass blocking or we are going to continue to be a one and done at best team.
You're not reading it correctly. 100 doesn't mean they were flawless. It's a curve, which means you give the highest graded team 100 and go from there. But that's just the PFF grade. There were two other evaluating groups who factored into this. Looks like the Vikings graded quite a bit lower among those groups, but still high enough to where a composite grade put them at #1. But again, this doesn't include the last three weeks. And yes, continuity is always a good thing.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ dadevike said:
No, meant the IOL sucked ass in pass pro in 22, and they ran it back in 23, that's called not addressing it. Sure some believe the answer is keep doing the same thing over and over and it will fix itself through continuity, I just didn't buy it then, and I still don't.
It's only hindsight if you weren't paying attention last year when many of us said the same thing. And not everyone was crying about the lions prediction, several here in fact called it before the talking heads. I wasn't picking them, but I wasn't saying the Vikes should be favored either. They hadn't fixed their OL or DL issues.
In '22 we won 13 games. With a horrible defense. Which we addressed in the off-season. Our O-Line had 2 first rounders and 3 second rounders. We had financial constraints and commitments. The weakest player along the O-Line was a rookie second round pick who played about every offensive snap that year.
And you are insisting the Vikings should have thrown in the towel while they create a perfect O-line. But there would undoubtedly have been another weakness on the team. CBs? LBs? RB? DE? QB not good enough?
Let's not bother to compete until the team is complete at every position. Which is to say, we will always wait until next year.
I paid attention last year and in '22. But I failed to predict the incredible number of TOs we would have to start the year. I also failed to predict that Jefferson would miss almost half the season and that Cousins would miss half the season. I cannot say with certainty what would have happened if those things had not happened, but I am confident we would have made the playoffs. After that, it's anyone's guess.
I agree our O-Line could be better. In fact, every position on the team could be better, including WR and OT. But I did see our suck ass O-line play well enough to beat the 49ers and keep Cousins from getting sacked that game. And I know that when Cousins got injured (non-contact) he was having a very good year. And he has very little (almost no) pocket movement. So give a lot of that credit to the O-line.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
No, meant the IOL sucked ass in pass pro in 22, and they ran it back in 23, that's called not addressing it. Sure some believe the answer is keep doing the same thing over and over and it will fix itself through continuity, I just didn't buy it then, and I still don't.
do you actually believe that? in your expert opinion, do you think the Vikings IOL is adequate? PFF is showing them as having a 100 grade, are they really the best oline in the league or is PFF full of shit? I tend to lean towards the later, or there is a lot of context to be explained here.
I think the Vikings offensive line is well above average. I think if you watch other NFL games you see that pretty clearly. The thing about this graphic is that it doesn't just consider PFF. It's a composite of PFF, the SIS ranking and the ESPN win rate. It's also just pass blocking because that's what you mentioned in your post. The same composite ranked the Vikings run blocking 22nd.
Also, this was after week 15 and the Vikings OL was terrible at the end of the year. I haven't seen an updated version. But FWIW, at the end of the season PFF ranked the Vikings offensive line (pass and run) 12th in the NFL.
ive seen enough other games in the playoffs to know that our OL is no where near the top of the damn league in anything positive. its the PFF grade that fucks up your composite rankings, that 100 for pass blocking is the most absurd thing I have seen in a long time on here. that is saying the Vikings are the best pass blocking team in the league? No fucking way, I saw a stat somewhere that listed QB sacks allowed and the Vikings were in the lower 1/3 of the league with 2.8 sacks per game allowed, and they were actually worse in 2023 than in 2022 by .2 per game.
its ok, you can be wrong once in a while, you stuck to your convictions on the OL jelling and improving from 22 to 23 through continuity, which typically I would agree if we had decent pieces in place, but Cleveland hadnt impressed every since they flipped him from RG to LG, Bradbury has never impressed except for a few rare run plays they he was able to get downfield and blow up a DB, and Ingram is so inconsistent that about all you can say is win some lose some, yes they move on from Cook but I dont think that was enough to account for the decline in the run game, so not only did they not do shit in pass pro, they were pathetic in the run game as well, if it werent for the studs making big plays in the passing game our O would likely be ranked at the bottom as well.
if this team is going to continue with an immobile aging QB, they have to fix that IOL and do so with guys that can anchor as well as drive so we can at least find league average in both run and pass blocking or we are going to continue to be a one and done at best team.
You're not reading it correctly. 100 doesn't mean they were flawless. It's a curve, which means you give the highest graded team 100 and go from there. But that's just the PFF grade. There were two other evaluating groups who factored into this. Looks like the Vikings graded quite a bit lower among those groups, but still high enough to where a composite grade put them at #1. But again, this doesn't include the last three weeks. And yes, continuity is always a good thing.
I read it fine, you didn't read my post. The 100 says PFF ranked them the top unit and that is simply bull shit, not even close to reality, and it's that 100 that skews the other 2 so badly resulting in a flawed at best ranking.
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ supafreak84 said:
If you believed everything PFF and their grading system to be legit, then Josh Oliver is an All Pro Tight End
He's a good blocker and that's what he graded high in. You don't buy that?
l suspect All Pro voting is geared more toward receiving TEs and Olver only caught 22 passes.
Maybe, but that wasn't reflective in our ability to run the football. The pass catching skills were subpar, but all we heard about was he was PFF's 3rd, 4th, 5th rated TE in the league. Certainly makes me question their grading metrics
Christian Darrisaw grading high as a run blocker wasn't reflective of our ability to run the ball either. I suspect there's a few other factors that go into running the ball well.
Agreed, lots of different factors, but PFF "grades" certainly make you question certain things. If Oliver is a top 5 graded TE, Darrisaw is a top 5 (assuming) graded tackle, Ingram made a large jump this year in his all around game, and I'd assume Oneill is highly rated....it makes you wonder why we struggled running the ball all year.
Agree. It does make you wonder. But I think the backs play a role in that, the OC plays a role and the QB plays a role as well. For example, if I'm a DC facing Hall, Dobbs or Mullens, I'm not going to be playing the pass. And remember, the Vikings ranked 22nd in run blocking.
Agreed, although if I was a DC facing whomever is at QB.. I'm gearing up to stop Addison, Hockenson, Jefferson, and this pass game because that's where the big plays come from. Even at that we couldn't run it. Tied for dead last in rushing TD's, 29th in runs of 20+ yards, and zero rushes of 40+ on the year. It was just abysmal all season. So when I hear about all these wonderful individual PFF grades, it makes you wonder and question the validity of those grades and the formulas used to get them
At some point you would think that fans would stop making excuses for why this team hasn't been competitive since 2009!
Quote: @StickyBun said:
If Cousins resigns, this would be a great scenario for Minnesota:
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news...ree-picks/
That would be ideal....
I think QB's 4-6 will be over-drafted with qb's so over-valued. The Jets are an example of maybe wanting someone behind Rogers for a year or so.
I dont think they'll get one ala Bridgewater.
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
You're not reading it correctly. 100 doesn't mean they were flawless. It's a curve, which means you give the highest graded team 100 and go from there. But that's just the PFF grade. There were two other evaluating groups who factored into this. Looks like the Vikings graded quite a bit lower among those groups, but still high enough to where a composite grade put them at #1. But again, this doesn't include the last three weeks. And yes, continuity is always a good thing.
I read it fine, you didn't read my post. The 100 says PFF ranked them the top unit and that is simply bull shit, not even close to reality, and it's that 100 that skews the other 2 so badly resulting in a flawed at best ranking.
Are they stupid? Being paid off? Part of some vast Vike-wing conspiracy? Or is it possible that the Vikings actually do grade fairly well as a collection of individuals, but don't play well as a unit?
Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
You're not reading it correctly. 100 doesn't mean they were flawless. It's a curve, which means you give the highest graded team 100 and go from there. But that's just the PFF grade. There were two other evaluating groups who factored into this. Looks like the Vikings graded quite a bit lower among those groups, but still high enough to where a composite grade put them at #1. But again, this doesn't include the last three weeks. And yes, continuity is always a good thing.
I read it fine, you didn't read my post. The 100 says PFF ranked them the top unit and that is simply bull shit, not even close to reality, and it's that 100 that skews the other 2 so badly resulting in a flawed at best ranking.
Are they stupid? Being paid off? Part of some vast Vike-wing conspiracy? Or is it possible that the Vikings actually do grade fairly well as a collection of individuals, but don't play well as a unit?
well.... Collinsworth
you keep trusting PFF, I will go with my eyes and actual football stats to support my position.
2023 Vikings Pass Stats-- in fairness, the Vikings were one of the most pass happy teams, but one would think that would lend to them getting better at pass protection.
sacks allowed 47-tied for 10th worst in the league
pocket time 2.6 only a tenth off the top time so thats pretty good, but at the same time, only .6 separates the best and the worst in the league.
hits on QB 96-- this is dead last in the league and 19 more than any other team.
pressure % on QB--26.7%, this is 3rd from the worst in the league
you keep on going with a system that has proven to be wrong as much as is it right, I am going to stick with my the facts and my eyes, which say our IOL ( most of the pressure and hits, especially early in the plays, come from between the tackles, and often from between the guards.) is in need of a major improvement.
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