Rick had some hits and he had some misses, like most GMs. KAM can't be judged yet, its too early. If Cine and Booth pan out, it'll look completely different than it does right now.
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ medaille said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ RS Express said:
@ supafreak84 said:
And we fired Spielman why again?
1st round picks:
2015: Trae Waynes
2016: Treadwell
2017: Bradford trade
2018: Mike Hughes
2019: Bradbury
2020: JJ, Gladney
7 1st round picks and by 2023 all that's left is JJ and Bradbury.
And while 2021 got us Darrisaw in the 1st, there's that 3rd round of Mond/Suratt/Wyatt Davis/Patrick Jones. 3 total bombs and a ?
Kwesi's 1st draft didn't go as planned either, but after defending him for years I have to say Spielman earned his pink slip.
OK, so now be fair and do that for the rest of the NFL and see how he compares in context. If you do that enough times, you begin to understand one simple fact. The draft is a crap shoot and everyone sucks at it.
Some do better than others though. See the OP. See the fact that in his last nine drafts, Spielman drafted 23 Pro Bowl seasons and 12 All Pro seasons. Is that good? Who knows, maybe it's horrible. Can't tell without context. It's good. Belichick for example: 1 Pro Bowl season, 1 AllPro season.
Still, I was all for firing Spielman for the reason mentioned above. But there's no denying he was a pretty good drafter...unless of course you choose to just look at the bad picks, like you just did.
The draft isn’t pure random luck. He didn’t just roll snake eyes too many times
and I guess the team was mediocre because of luck of the draw. There is a luck component for sure, but over
time it averages out, and the GMs job is to find better talent, and make sure
the coaches and support staff are in place to develop and maximize the talent
on the roster at a rate that’s better than his peers on other teams.
The talent on this roster after Spielman left was not
great. We were old, expensive, and had
no depth to fill in when injuries happened. Our secondary was depleted. Our
DLine wasn’t adequate, especially for the 2 years Hunter missed. We spent a ton of draft capital on OLine and
they still hovered at league bottom.
I think Spielman’s big downfalls happened around the time when
Cousins came in. We shifted from a
Zimmer designed team, where Spielman got Zimmer what he needed to a Spielman
designed team, where Zimmer coached whatever Spielman gave him. He got him an expensive, but not elite QB
that he didn’t want. He stacked the
offense at the expense of his defense, which was Zim’s calling card. He got him an OLine which was too weak to
pass block for the statue of a QB he had.
I don’t think Spielmans strategy was bad, but it was a
horrible fit with Zimmer. He should have
moved on from Zimmer at the time and moved towards an offensive minded coach.
I disagree completely that Rick left this roster with subpar talent. We won 13 games last season on the backs of the talent Rick Spielman acquired for this organization. The Adolfo-Mensah acquisitions made little to no impact outside of the mid-season trade for Hockenson and half a season of Zadarius Smith. I still contend the Vikings would have been better off moving forward by keeping Spielman and just making a coaching change.
I guess, what do you mean by par? If par is average, then absolutely the
Vikings were better than subpar both in Spielman’s last two years as they
hovered right at average and probably would have made the playoffs if not for
Hunter being injured. If par is able to realistically
compete for a SB, we were far from it, both in the state that Spielman left it
and in how much progress Kwesi was able to make beyond that. While I do agree that the offense is pretty
much the same, the defense has been overhauled, and any GM can make half a team
look decent. We all watched the team
last year. That team required all the magic,
luck and good health to get to 13 wins. Magic,
luck, and good health are not repeatable.
If you replayed that season again, we’d probably be slightly above
average, but we clearly were lacking enough talent on defense to realistically
compete for a SB and there wasn’t any real evidence that Spielman would have
got us there.
Quote: @HappyViking said:
@ supafreak84 said:
@ medaille said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ RS Express said:
@ supafreak84 said:
And we fired Spielman why again?
1st round picks:
2015: Trae Waynes
2016: Treadwell
2017: Bradford trade
2018: Mike Hughes
2019: Bradbury
2020: JJ, Gladney
7 1st round picks and by 2023 all that's left is JJ and Bradbury.
And while 2021 got us Darrisaw in the 1st, there's that 3rd round of Mond/Suratt/Wyatt Davis/Patrick Jones. 3 total bombs and a ?
Kwesi's 1st draft didn't go as planned either, but after defending him for years I have to say Spielman earned his pink slip.
OK, so now be fair and do that for the rest of the NFL and see how he compares in context. If you do that enough times, you begin to understand one simple fact. The draft is a crap shoot and everyone sucks at it.
Some do better than others though. See the OP. See the fact that in his last nine drafts, Spielman drafted 23 Pro Bowl seasons and 12 All Pro seasons. Is that good? Who knows, maybe it's horrible. Can't tell without context. It's good. Belichick for example: 1 Pro Bowl season, 1 AllPro season.
Still, I was all for firing Spielman for the reason mentioned above. But there's no denying he was a pretty good drafter...unless of course you choose to just look at the bad picks, like you just did.
The draft isn’t pure random luck. He didn’t just roll snake eyes too many times
and I guess the team was mediocre because of luck of the draw. There is a luck component for sure, but over
time it averages out, and the GMs job is to find better talent, and make sure
the coaches and support staff are in place to develop and maximize the talent
on the roster at a rate that’s better than his peers on other teams.
The talent on this roster after Spielman left was not
great. We were old, expensive, and had
no depth to fill in when injuries happened. Our secondary was depleted. Our
DLine wasn’t adequate, especially for the 2 years Hunter missed. We spent a ton of draft capital on OLine and
they still hovered at league bottom.
I think Spielman’s big downfalls happened around the time when
Cousins came in. We shifted from a
Zimmer designed team, where Spielman got Zimmer what he needed to a Spielman
designed team, where Zimmer coached whatever Spielman gave him. He got him an expensive, but not elite QB
that he didn’t want. He stacked the
offense at the expense of his defense, which was Zim’s calling card. He got him an OLine which was too weak to
pass block for the statue of a QB he had.
I don’t think Spielmans strategy was bad, but it was a
horrible fit with Zimmer. He should have
moved on from Zimmer at the time and moved towards an offensive minded coach.
I disagree completely that Rick left this roster with subpar talent. We won 13 games last season on the backs of the talent Rick Spielman acquired for this organization. The Adolfo-Mensah acquisitions made little to no impact outside of the mid-season trade for Hockenson and half a season of Zadarius Smith. I still contend the Vikings would have been better off moving forward by keeping Spielman and just making a coaching change. I fully disagree about the superior Spielman talent that paved the way to 13-4. The Vikings set an NFL record with one score victories (11) and had 9 come from behind wins. The main difference from the prior year Zim coached was most or at least half of those were losses. The team overachieved at times and played to win last season. I think the change of attitude in the FO and coaching is what made 2022 a winning season. Getting Z and having a healthy Hunter also helped, but even the OL played better due to better coaching. It was Kwesi that picked our coach, and no way I would've trusted Spielman to try it again. Good for you that you like and trust RS so much, but I have the complete opposite opinion.
Vikings comebacks in 2022
| Week |
Opponent |
Largest 2nd half deficit |
Final score |
| 3 |
Detroit Lions |
10 points |
28-24 |
| 4 |
New Orleans Saints |
3 points |
28-25 |
| 5 |
Chicago Bears |
1 point |
29-22 |
| 8 |
Arizona Cardinals |
3 points |
34-26 |
| 9 |
Washington Commanders |
10 points |
20-17 |
| 10 |
Buffalo Bills |
17 points |
33-30 (OT) |
| 12 |
New England Patriots |
7 points |
33-26 |
| 15 |
Indianapolis Colts |
33 points |
39-36 (OT) |
| 16 |
New York Giants |
3 points |
27-24 |
Vikings record in one-score games
Minnesota has put together an outrageous 11-0 record in one-possession games this season, an NFL record.
| Week |
Opponent |
Final score |
| 3 |
Detroit Lions |
28-24 |
| 4 |
New Orleans Saints |
28-25 |
| 5 |
Chicago Bears |
29-22 |
| 6 |
Miami Dolphins |
24-16 |
| 8 |
Arizona Cardinals |
34-26 |
| 9 |
Washington Commanders |
20-17 |
| 10 |
Buffalo Bills |
33-30 (OT) |
| 12 |
New England Patriots |
33-26 |
| 13 |
New York Jets |
27-22 |
| 15 |
Indianapolis Colts |
39-36 (OT) |
| 16 |
New York Giants |
27-24 |
I agree that some luck played a factor in our success last season, but still we won 13 games and the talent assembled by Rick Spielman was mostly responsible for that. The defensive struggles last year had everything to do with a complete change in scheme and the hiring of an idiot to oversee and implement that transition. That has nothing to do with Spielman, nor does the fact that Adolfo-Mensah added nothing in the way of helping the cause of that defense last offseason. Also the improved offensive line play had a lot to do with staying healthy and getting Darrisaw in the lineup for most of it. At the end of the day I think letting Rick go was a mistake and the more I see from Kwesi, the more I wish Spielman was still in charge of personnel.
The same fans who want to be rid of Kirko because the team has only one playoff win since he was signed wanted to keep RS despite the team having only two playoff wins in the ten years since he was named GM in 2012.
Quote: @Knucklehead said:
The same fans who want to be rid of Kirko because the team has only one playoff win since he was signed wanted to keep RS despite the team having only two playoff wins in the ten years since he was named GM in 2012.
Don't forget the Wilfs!! They don't want to win and suck! B)
Quote: @medaille said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ RS Express said:
@ supafreak84 said:
And we fired Spielman why again?
1st round picks:
2015: Trae Waynes
2016: Treadwell
2017: Bradford trade
2018: Mike Hughes
2019: Bradbury
2020: JJ, Gladney
7 1st round picks and by 2023 all that's left is JJ and Bradbury.
And while 2021 got us Darrisaw in the 1st, there's that 3rd round of Mond/Suratt/Wyatt Davis/Patrick Jones. 3 total bombs and a ?
Kwesi's 1st draft didn't go as planned either, but after defending him for years I have to say Spielman earned his pink slip.
OK, so now be fair and do that for the rest of the NFL and see how he compares in context. If you do that enough times, you begin to understand one simple fact. The draft is a crap shoot and everyone sucks at it.
Some do better than others though. See the OP. See the fact that in his last nine drafts, Spielman drafted 23 Pro Bowl seasons and 12 All Pro seasons. Is that good? Who knows, maybe it's horrible. Can't tell without context. It's good. Belichick for example: 1 Pro Bowl season, 1 AllPro season.
Still, I was all for firing Spielman for the reason mentioned above. But there's no denying he was a pretty good drafter...unless of course you choose to just look at the bad picks, like you just did.
The draft isn’t pure random luck. He didn’t just roll snake eyes too many times
and I guess the team was mediocre because of luck of the draw. There is a luck component for sure, but over
time it averages out, and the GMs job is to find better talent, and make sure
the coaches and support staff are in place to develop and maximize the talent
on the roster at a rate that’s better than his peers on other teams.
The talent on this roster after Spielman left was not
great. We were old, expensive, and had
no depth to fill in when injuries happened. Our secondary was depleted. Our
DLine wasn’t adequate, especially for the 2 years Hunter missed. We spent a ton of draft capital on OLine and
they still hovered at league bottom.
I think Spielman’s big downfalls happened around the time when
Cousins came in. We shifted from a
Zimmer designed team, where Spielman got Zimmer what he needed to a Spielman
designed team, where Zimmer coached whatever Spielman gave him. He got him an expensive, but not elite QB
that he didn’t want. He stacked the
offense at the expense of his defense, which was Zim’s calling card. He got him an OLine which was too weak to
pass block for the statue of a QB he had.
I don’t think Spielmans strategy was bad, but it was a
horrible fit with Zimmer. He should have
moved on from Zimmer at the time and moved towards an offensive minded coach.
I think that last line bolded tells the tale. Early on Zim got his defense. They performed well and got expensive to resign. But Rick's mid round misses at O-line left a large hole that needed to be filled with high picks later. I think O'Neill, Cleveland and Darrisaw will elevate this line from the depths to being top 10.
Also Rick's inability to find a QB and his reluctance to even try once he picked a QB was his ultimate undoing. Teddy was the only one that had a chance to be an NFL starter.
Quote: @greediron said:
@ medaille said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ RS Express said:
@ supafreak84 said:
And we fired Spielman why again?
1st round picks:
2015: Trae Waynes
2016: Treadwell
2017: Bradford trade
2018: Mike Hughes
2019: Bradbury
2020: JJ, Gladney
7 1st round picks and by 2023 all that's left is JJ and Bradbury.
And while 2021 got us Darrisaw in the 1st, there's that 3rd round of Mond/Suratt/Wyatt Davis/Patrick Jones. 3 total bombs and a ?
Kwesi's 1st draft didn't go as planned either, but after defending him for years I have to say Spielman earned his pink slip.
OK, so now be fair and do that for the rest of the NFL and see how he compares in context. If you do that enough times, you begin to understand one simple fact. The draft is a crap shoot and everyone sucks at it.
Some do better than others though. See the OP. See the fact that in his last nine drafts, Spielman drafted 23 Pro Bowl seasons and 12 All Pro seasons. Is that good? Who knows, maybe it's horrible. Can't tell without context. It's good. Belichick for example: 1 Pro Bowl season, 1 AllPro season.
Still, I was all for firing Spielman for the reason mentioned above. But there's no denying he was a pretty good drafter...unless of course you choose to just look at the bad picks, like you just did.
The draft isn’t pure random luck. He didn’t just roll snake eyes too many times
and I guess the team was mediocre because of luck of the draw. There is a luck component for sure, but over
time it averages out, and the GMs job is to find better talent, and make sure
the coaches and support staff are in place to develop and maximize the talent
on the roster at a rate that’s better than his peers on other teams.
The talent on this roster after Spielman left was not
great. We were old, expensive, and had
no depth to fill in when injuries happened. Our secondary was depleted. Our
DLine wasn’t adequate, especially for the 2 years Hunter missed. We spent a ton of draft capital on OLine and
they still hovered at league bottom.
I think Spielman’s big downfalls happened around the time when
Cousins came in. We shifted from a
Zimmer designed team, where Spielman got Zimmer what he needed to a Spielman
designed team, where Zimmer coached whatever Spielman gave him. He got him an expensive, but not elite QB
that he didn’t want. He stacked the
offense at the expense of his defense, which was Zim’s calling card. He got him an OLine which was too weak to
pass block for the statue of a QB he had.
I don’t think Spielmans strategy was bad, but it was a
horrible fit with Zimmer. He should have
moved on from Zimmer at the time and moved towards an offensive minded coach.
I think that last line bolded tells the tale. Early on Zim got his defense. They performed well and got expensive to resign. But Rick's mid round misses at O-line left a large hole that needed to be filled with high picks later. I think O'Neill, Cleveland and Darrisaw will elevate this line from the depths to being top 10.
Also Rick's inability to find a QB and his reluctance to even try once he picked a QB was his ultimate undoing. Teddy was the only one that had a chance to be an NFL starter.
Rick tried. He drafted Ponder who was a bust. He drafted Bridgewater who was promising then blew his knee out, which forced him to trade for Bradford two weeks before the season started. Bradford had a good year, then re-injured a prior knee injury early in 2017. The Vikings signed Cousins in free agency that next offseason. It's not that he didn't try and there was certainly some unfortunate luck along the way. With that said, Cousins has been one of the better QB's in franchise history and Rick should get some credit for that.
Since the 2011 NFL Draft, only 3 teams have spent more Round 1-3 draft capital on QBs than the Vikings
Quote: @supafreak84 said:
@ greediron said:
@ medaille said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ RS Express said:
@ supafreak84 said:
And we fired Spielman why again?
1st round picks:
2015: Trae Waynes
2016: Treadwell
2017: Bradford trade
2018: Mike Hughes
2019: Bradbury
2020: JJ, Gladney
7 1st round picks and by 2023 all that's left is JJ and Bradbury.
And while 2021 got us Darrisaw in the 1st, there's that 3rd round of Mond/Suratt/Wyatt Davis/Patrick Jones. 3 total bombs and a ?
Kwesi's 1st draft didn't go as planned either, but after defending him for years I have to say Spielman earned his pink slip.
OK, so now be fair and do that for the rest of the NFL and see how he compares in context. If you do that enough times, you begin to understand one simple fact. The draft is a crap shoot and everyone sucks at it.
Some do better than others though. See the OP. See the fact that in his last nine drafts, Spielman drafted 23 Pro Bowl seasons and 12 All Pro seasons. Is that good? Who knows, maybe it's horrible. Can't tell without context. It's good. Belichick for example: 1 Pro Bowl season, 1 AllPro season.
Still, I was all for firing Spielman for the reason mentioned above. But there's no denying he was a pretty good drafter...unless of course you choose to just look at the bad picks, like you just did.
The draft isn’t pure random luck. He didn’t just roll snake eyes too many times
and I guess the team was mediocre because of luck of the draw. There is a luck component for sure, but over
time it averages out, and the GMs job is to find better talent, and make sure
the coaches and support staff are in place to develop and maximize the talent
on the roster at a rate that’s better than his peers on other teams.
The talent on this roster after Spielman left was not
great. We were old, expensive, and had
no depth to fill in when injuries happened. Our secondary was depleted. Our
DLine wasn’t adequate, especially for the 2 years Hunter missed. We spent a ton of draft capital on OLine and
they still hovered at league bottom.
I think Spielman’s big downfalls happened around the time when
Cousins came in. We shifted from a
Zimmer designed team, where Spielman got Zimmer what he needed to a Spielman
designed team, where Zimmer coached whatever Spielman gave him. He got him an expensive, but not elite QB
that he didn’t want. He stacked the
offense at the expense of his defense, which was Zim’s calling card. He got him an OLine which was too weak to
pass block for the statue of a QB he had.
I don’t think Spielmans strategy was bad, but it was a
horrible fit with Zimmer. He should have
moved on from Zimmer at the time and moved towards an offensive minded coach.
I think that last line bolded tells the tale. Early on Zim got his defense. They performed well and got expensive to resign. But Rick's mid round misses at O-line left a large hole that needed to be filled with high picks later. I think O'Neill, Cleveland and Darrisaw will elevate this line from the depths to being top 10.
Also Rick's inability to find a QB and his reluctance to even try once he picked a QB was his ultimate undoing. Teddy was the only one that had a chance to be an NFL starter.
Rick tried. He drafted Ponder who was a bust. He drafted Bridgewater who was promising then blew his knee out, which forced him to trade for Bradford two weeks before the season started. Bradford had a good year, then re-injured a prior knee injury early in 2017. The Vikings signed Cousins in free agency that next offseason. It's not that he didn't try and there was certainly some unfortunate luck along the way. With that said, Cousins has been one of the better QB's in franchise history and Rick should get some credit for that.
Cousins has been good, at a price.
It wasn't the Ponder bust or the Bridgewater injury. I think Teddy was a great find. It was the unwillingness to take a shot, like the Redskins did with Cousins. They picked a 1st rounder and had the balls to follow it up with a 4th rounder. Rick always wanted his QB to be the only guy, no threats from the backup. So we had Shaun Hill and that ilk.
|
