Quote: @MaroonBells said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ pattersaur said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ purplefaithful said:
@"Geoff Nichols" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@ purplefaithful said:
I agree that the Bradbury situation is a tricky one to navigate. He may have reached his ceiling play wise and the $/terms will be the deciding factor. Plus some other team may just decide he's the cats meow and give him a deal he cant refuse.
Either way, we are all in agreement the Vikings need to get "stouter" in the trenches for both their lines.
Am very much looking forward to the next 5/6 weeks.
Theres nothing tricky with GB, hes hasn't shown to have the strength and anchor to be a starting center, especially for a pocket QB. If he went somewhere with a QB that can move and avoid the rush, he will probably have a decent career, but there is still the matter of him not being able to move anybody.
I don't disagree, but you do need to give him credit cerebrally since he is good at managing the protections. There was a notable drop-off when Schlottman took over. Bradbury is also one of the best centers in space in the NFL. So it kind of boils down to him being a flawed player.
If you want to play in space he is exceptional. But there are just going to be matchups against larger NT/DT tackles where he is just going to have a tough afternoon. However, he did show signs of improvement prior to his injury. Nothing extraordinary, but progress.
Ultimately comes down to price point. He's worth keeping around since it just eliminates a new need. But if he wants high-end center money similar to Eric McCoy & Ryan Kelly ($12M/yr) I would pass. Hard part is that former high-end prospects always get overpaid if they reach FA so he may get it.
They (the Vikings) should get a good sense of the $ piece by the Combine correct?
I am sure the Vikings know what he is looking for at this point. Combine will only move that number up/down based on what they hear from other teams. Combine is really the start of FA since agents get a feel for their guys market. So next week will really dictate if he will re-sign or will re-test the market. I guess I would be a little surprised if he didn't at least test the waters since the Vikings aren't about to tag him.
And color me "old fashioned" but I think so much of this is influenced and revolves around the QB. What they do with KC is really going to drive what flex they have in FA.
Second to that would be the next tier of players in Cook, Thielen P2 and Kendricks...
If the Vikings already have a sense of what the players might be asking for, when does this all need to get resolved by?
The legal tampering period?
I haven't heard anything on Kirk rumors lately, time will tell on that one, also a combine topic. Odds are that they try to extend him yet again assuming the price point makes sense. I could see the Vikings wanting to wait on Derek Carr to sign since that is a good data point to leverage Kirk off of. At this point Kirk realistically will be looking for $40M on yet another short-term deal. So I guess you could say the Vikings are hoping Carr gets closer to $30-35M.
While Kirk has always set the precedence he'll only sign guaranteed deals if the Vikings could get him for $105 - $112.5M/3 years with only $60-70M guaranteed I think they'd jump on it. That just gives you the room to really massage the salary cap. In this scenario they can save $10-15M on the cap this year and still have him on a cap number close to $30M in 2024.
Going against the odds, I personally wouldn't be too surprised if they let him play his contract out. They can still move some of his roster bonus out if they would like to free up a bit of cap space, but it just gets them out of the year to year business. At some point the Vikings need to dictate you either need to re-sign for term or we can't continue to do this. Of course this doesn't prevent them from resigning him after the 2023 season at all. But it does really bring into focus the need for a young QB on the roster. They can just be selective on who that is.
But all of this will probably need to be decided in pencil by the legal tampering period.
God my buddies are gonna clown me so hard if the Vikings sign Kirk for THREE more years. He's a good player but at what point does the team say-- well, this isn't really working so...
Also Matt Ryan and Phillip Rivers scare me to death as far as QBs falling off a cliff. Even Rodgers this past season was a sharp drop off from just a year ago (MVP). Brady and Favre are not the norm.
With all due respect, your buddies aren't very bright. No reasonably informed person can look at the Vikings and go "oh...hey, Cousins is the problem there!" I mean it's laughable.
Also, Rodgers is 5 years older than Cousins. I would say Cousins is at least three years away from any kind of age-related decline. And the QBs who continue to play good football into their late 30s and early 40s tend to be the ones who don't have a pile of injuries in their history.
They also tend to be the ones that don't take a lot of big hits which we know Kirk has taken.
Do they? I don't think there's a data set for that. There is for injuries and you can see a direct correlation between the amount of injuries and the amount of years played.
I'm not sure taking a hit that doesn't result in some kind of debilitating pain or injury is a factor at all. But who knows. Probably takes a toll over time I suppose.
thats exactly what it is, its an accumulative effect, slight sprains and other mild injuries that get treatments and we never hear about because they play through them, will start to take longer to recover from, tightness takes longer to loosen up, they arent super human, the same shit that we deal with, they will deal with. I still think that Kirk is a cerebral guy and wont push his body chasing records like a few others and play until or into his 40s. I also dont think his brain is wired like Brees, Brady, and Rogers, and that isnt meant to be a slight towards Kirk. Those guys werent playing for a love of the game, they were playing for their legacy, IMO Kirks legacy isnt written on a football field.
Not to turn this into another Kirk thread, but he will be 35 before the start of the season and YOU DO have to worry about when and if he falls off the cliff of regression like Matt Ryan or the countless other QB's in league history not named Brady. Kirk has taken a lot of hits behind our porous offensive line over the years and as you age you naturally become more susceptible to injury. It's really been a miracle he has been able to drag himself up off the ground and continue playing after some of the shots we've seen him take. The handling of our backup QB situation has been almost criminal in the way it was handled by both Spielman and Kwesi keeping the Sean Mannion's of the world employed.
I don't think the Vikings will draft a QB this year and hitch their future wagons in a move up for Richardson or the Will Levis's of the world. I think most likely we sign Kirk to another short extension kicking the can down the road, backload money to open up some cap space this year, and we bring in another mid-tier option as a back up. Wash, rinse, repeat, is the cycle we have put ourselves into due to cap and the money we pay Cousins. Until they hit that wall and decide its time for a rebuild it will be the same predicament we will continue to be stuck in. Good, not great middle age QB making top ten money with no real succession plan. That's why I think taking a swing at a high upside young QB like a Zach Wilson as the backup just makes sense on multiple levels.
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
Geoff, whats going on with Z'Darius? Is he going to be back?
As far as KC goes I hope they can sign him to a team friendlier deal and buy themselves some time to find that QBOTF.
Just like last year, we need to ask ourselves what are our options? Dalton? Carr? Mariota? Jimmy G?
The reality is that there is no current NFL QB who could be available to the purple who is clearly better than Cousins.
Now find me that RPO next guy soon KAM and I'll be a happy camper.
One last point I'll make is this - Justin Jefferson. I suspect he would very much like to have Cousins tossing him td balls again in 23 and maybe 24 too.
I tend to think he will be, at least I don't think they will release him. So trade? Maybe. His contract/production may have some value to team in a win-now window. I know that during exit interviews he was guaranteed a return, but he still fits the scheme. Longer term the bigger question that's been put in the backset is how they're going to handle Hunter. There is next to no chance he is going to show up on his current deal and play it out.
Quote: @mgobluevikes said:
@ MaroonBells said:
@ dadevike said:
@ purplefaithful said:
On Monday, Keith Sanchez of The Draft Network released his latest mock draft, in which he helped the Vikings out by having them select Minnesota Gophers center, John Michael Schmitz.
“John Michael Schmitz was one of the biggest risers after the Senior Bowl and the Vikings desperately need a versatile interior offensive lineman to upgrade that position. The Vikings need to add an element of toughness to their offense to be able to impose their will running the football. Schmitz should help them do both things.”
While not a splashy pick, this would definitely fill a need for the Vikings and give them stability at the center position for the next decade or more. Schmitz has incredible strength and is a technician with his hands and footwork. He should thrive wherever he is picked.
It’s also noteworthy that Schmitz’s agent is former Vikings offensive lineman Jeremiah Sirles.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/the-draft-network-sends-gophers-center-to-the-vikings-in-latest-mock-draft/ar-AA17JuSD?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=1fe72b95dabe481e9a4eed67b9e99f6f
I would really hate that pick. I will bet that the history of first round centers is bleak to awful. I wonder if anyone would like this pick if the player had not played his college ball in Minnesota. Nothing against Schmitz; I saw him at the Senior Bowl practices. He's very good. But he's a Center. Hard pass for me.
He's got a lot in common with Bradbury. Both outside zone centers, identical in size, reach blocking specialists. But this is what I call the "green grass" period, where every draft pick and everyone else's free agents are better than the ones we've already got.
To me there are some pretty easy decisions to make on the roster, but Bradbury isn't one of them. This one's all about the money. I don't want to spend a ton of money on him and I absolutely don't want to commit to him long-term. But the LAST thing we need is a downgrade at the position, which is pretty easy to do if we're not careful.
Not exactly identical in size. Schmitz outweighs Brabury by 20 lbs and an inch taller.
JMS at the Senior Bowl
Ht Wt Arm Hand Wing
6'3.3" 306 32 3/4" 9 5/8" 78 7/8"
Here is Bradbury at the combine
6'2.8" 306 31 3/4" 10 1/2" 76 1/2"
They are actually pretty identical in size.
The difference could be that JMS, in high school, started at left tackle his junior and senior seasons and also lettered in wrestling.
Rivals showed JMS weighing at 280 entering college.
Bradbury played tight end and defensive end in high school. Rivals showed him weighing 240 entering college.
He started off at tight end too.
I would say it is safe to make an educated guess and say JMS is functionally stronger entering the NFL.
We took Bradbury in the first and he is just average and a free agent, let him walk and take JMS. He is a lot stronger. Unless someone better is available at 23 at a position of major need (and not a CB, we have plenty to work with) he should be a benefit to passing game unlike Bradbury. Keep the QB upright instead of leading the sack and hit column. JMS should make the guards much better.
Quote: @"oldman2" said:
We took Bradbury in the first and he is just average and a free agent, let him walk and take JMS. He is a lot stronger. Unless someone better is available at 23 at a position of major need (and not a CB, we have plenty to work with) he should be a benefit to passing game unlike Bradbury. Keep the QB upright instead of leading the sack and hit column. JMS should make the guards much better.
ive seen this sentiment a few times regarding our CBs, I have yet to see anything from our young group of corners to say that we are set, or that we dont need to keep looking, aside from a DT that can collapse a pocket, I think a CB that can win the physical battles with the larger receivers, but still has the feet and hips to cover the quicker guys down field is something we should be on the lookout for. We've seen what happens to our pass coverage when we dont have any corners that have any size to them. I am not advocating for taking a CB @23, but I certainly dont think our situation would preclude us from looking that direction with our first pick. I do think though that Bradbury has not shown to be strong enough and that our interior OL play is being drug down since he cant be left alone again many DTs.
so many holes... so few draft choices...
Quote: @JimmyinSD said:
@"oldman2" said:
We took Bradbury in the first and he is just average and a free agent, let him walk and take JMS. He is a lot stronger. Unless someone better is available at 23 at a position of major need (and not a CB, we have plenty to work with) he should be a benefit to passing game unlike Bradbury. Keep the QB upright instead of leading the sack and hit column. JMS should make the guards much better.
ive seen this sentiment a few times regarding our CBs, I have yet to see anything from our young group of corners to say that we are set, or that we dont need to keep looking, aside from a DT that can collapse a pocket, I think a CB that can win the physical battles with the larger receivers, but still has the feet and hips to cover the quicker guys down field is something we should be on the lookout for. We've seen what happens to our pass coverage when we dont have any corners that have any size to them. I am not advocating for taking a CB @23, but I certainly dont think our situation would preclude us from looking that direction with our first pick. I do think though that Bradbury has not shown to be strong enough and that our interior OL play is being drug down since he cant be left alone again many DTs.
so many holes... so few draft choices...
I'm thinking to look at FA market for decent CB and develop what we have. Or make a trade. Donnetell was a big problem for our DBs Only real dud CB is Sullivan
Quote: @"oldman2" said:
@ JimmyinSD said:
@"oldman2" said:
We took Bradbury in the first and he is just average and a free agent, let him walk and take JMS. He is a lot stronger. Unless someone better is available at 23 at a position of major need (and not a CB, we have plenty to work with) he should be a benefit to passing game unlike Bradbury. Keep the QB upright instead of leading the sack and hit column. JMS should make the guards much better.
ive seen this sentiment a few times regarding our CBs, I have yet to see anything from our young group of corners to say that we are set, or that we dont need to keep looking, aside from a DT that can collapse a pocket, I think a CB that can win the physical battles with the larger receivers, but still has the feet and hips to cover the quicker guys down field is something we should be on the lookout for. We've seen what happens to our pass coverage when we dont have any corners that have any size to them. I am not advocating for taking a CB @23, but I certainly dont think our situation would preclude us from looking that direction with our first pick. I do think though that Bradbury has not shown to be strong enough and that our interior OL play is being drug down since he cant be left alone again many DTs.
so many holes... so few draft choices...
I'm thinking to look at FA market for decent CB and develop what we have. Or make a trade. Donnetell was a big problem for our DBs Only real dud CB is Sullivan
Likely to find a better center for cheap than a quality CB. Quality corners tend to make more on average than quality centers for some reason. If we have to go to the FA pool for one of the two positions I would prefer it to be the lower cost of the 2 and then use the draft pick on the more expensive position, if respective talent levels were similar.
Quote: @"oldman2" said:
We took Bradbury in the first and he is just average and a free agent, let him walk and take JMS. He is a lot stronger. Unless someone better is available at 23 at a position of major need (and not a CB, we have plenty to work with) he should be a benefit to passing game unlike Bradbury. Keep the QB upright instead of leading the sack and hit column. JMS should make the guards much better.
I agree..But if there is a stud WR there to pair with JJ or a replacement for Kendricks/Hicks - then I would rather go that route.
FA will tell us a lot in regards to filling needs.
To borrow from @MB, I love the grass is greener season!
Quote: @purplefaithful said:
@"oldman2" said:
We took Bradbury in the first and he is just average and a free agent, let him walk and take JMS. He is a lot stronger. Unless someone better is available at 23 at a position of major need (and not a CB, we have plenty to work with) he should be a benefit to passing game unlike Bradbury. Keep the QB upright instead of leading the sack and hit column. JMS should make the guards much better.
I agree..But if there is a stud WR there to pair with JJ or a replacement for Kendricks/Hicks - then I would rather go that route.
FA will tell us a lot in regards to filling needs.
To borrow from @MB, I love the grass is greener season!
It's not just green grass season, it's amnesia season. People seem to forget that Bradbury was one of the best center prospects to come out of college in years. JMS is a good prospect, but he's not quite on the same level as Bradbury was. Not yet anyway. And that's how you have to compare them: as college players, prospects.
But because he hasn't yet let Dexter Lawrence hit our QB, his traits take on mythological status. He outweighs Bradbury by 20 lbs. He doesn't. He's stronger than Bradbury. Maybe, but unlikely. Has a blue ox named Babe. Need more info.
Trust me, I want to improve our IOL as much as everyone else, but the only way I replace Bradbury is if I can, with a moderate degree of certainty, upgrade the position. And I'm not seeing that anywhere. Either in free agency or the draft. And the last thing this team needs is a downgrade at center.
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