So...Stingley

[Guest]

@pattersaur said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Say whaaaaaaaa? As the great Will Ferrell said... 

Well let's not forget, “crazy” is what I was called when I ranked consensus 2nd rounder AJ Terrell ahead of 4th overall CB Jeff Okudah two years ago. Terrell was All Pro last year in only his 2nd season. Okuda has been a bust and is most famous for the butt chewing he got on the sidelines. 
Crazy is what I was called when I ranked consensus 3rd or 4th receiver Justin Jefferson at the top of my WR rankings, ahead of both Lamb and Jeudy, and had consensus 2nd rounder Tee Higgins ahead of consensus middle 1st round receivers Ruggs and Raeger. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said consensus 2nd rounder Antoine Winfield Jr was the safest player in the draft and ranked him ahead of consensus 1st rounders McKinney and Delpit. AWJ was in the Pro Bowl last year. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said middle 1st round DT Aaron Donald was the best player I’d ever watched and I would take him with the 1st overall pick. “You mean ahead of Jadaveon Clowney?!! You crazy, man.”
In the same draft, I called 8th overall CB Justin Gilbert a bust. Gilbert was out of the NFL in 3 years. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said Laquon Treadwell the most overrated WR I’d ever watched. 
Look, I’m not ready to rank McDuffie ahead of Sauce and Stingley, but as I learn more, he’s trending that way. And he’s NOT small at all. Not sure where that’s coming from. At the combine, he measured 5-11, 193, which is exactly the average NFL height and weight (look it up). Same size as Darelle Revis, by the way. He has short arms. There’s a difference. And if it weren't for the short arms, he might already be my #1. 

Somewhat just giving you a hard time. Sauce just hits everything for me...the tape, the stats, the size, the length, and the speed. I think he's a Ramsey level type of CB

Not to get off topic but here’s an interesting article on the Ramsey trade and the “huge haul” the Jags got for him. Keep in mind the guy who made the trade and the picks is still their GM. Yikes. 

https://sports.yahoo.com/rams-jalen-ramsey-trade-with-jaguars-looking-like-one-of-most-lopsided-deals-ever-130043870.html

C'mon man, why you gotta bring up a link that includes most lopsided deals ever? You know that immediately made me think of the Randy Moss trade. Thanks for that

[Guest]

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Say whaaaaaaaa? As the great Will Ferrell said... 

Well let's not forget, “crazy” is what I was called when I ranked consensus 2nd rounder AJ Terrell ahead of 4th overall CB Jeff Okudah two years ago. Terrell was All Pro last year in only his 2nd season. Okuda has been a bust and is most famous for the butt chewing he got on the sidelines. 
Crazy is what I was called when I ranked consensus 3rd or 4th receiver Justin Jefferson at the top of my WR rankings, ahead of both Lamb and Jeudy, and had consensus 2nd rounder Tee Higgins ahead of consensus middle 1st round receivers Ruggs and Raeger. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said consensus 2nd rounder Antoine Winfield Jr was the safest player in the draft and ranked him ahead of consensus 1st rounders McKinney and Delpit. AWJ was in the Pro Bowl last year. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said middle 1st round DT Aaron Donald was the best player I’d ever watched and I would take him with the 1st overall pick. “You mean ahead of Jadaveon Clowney?!! You crazy, man.”
In the same draft, I called 8th overall CB Justin Gilbert a bust. Gilbert was out of the NFL in 3 years. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said Laquon Treadwell the most overrated WR I’d ever watched. 
Look, I’m not ready to rank McDuffie ahead of Sauce and Stingley, but as I learn more, he’s trending that way. And he’s NOT small at all. Not sure where that’s coming from. At the combine, he measured 5-11, 193, which is exactly the average NFL height and weight (look it up). Same size as Darelle Revis, by the way. He has short arms. There’s a difference. And if it weren't for the short arms, he might already be my #1. 

Somewhat just giving you a hard time. Sauce just hits everything for me...the tape, the stats, the size, the length, and the speed. I think he's a Ramsey level type of CB

Love Sauce. Stingley too. Just think T-Mac is being underrated by some. THIS is one of the things I like about him. Things like this are often underrated in favor of HWS. HWS is why so many ranked Ruggs, Reagor, Lamb and Jeudy so high. Everyone seemed to gloss over JJ's incredible route running and work ethic. And it's not like he was small...or slow. 

But I'm way late to the game. Just getting started on these guys, and will probably only have time to do QBs and CBs this year. Who knows, I might change my mind completely. I didn't have JJ ranked #1 until a week before the draft. But I don't know anyone else who did. Groupthink is a HUGE problem this time of year. People will almost get angry if you have an opinion that runs counter to conventional wisdom. :-)

[Guest]

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Say whaaaaaaaa? As the great Will Ferrell said... 

Well let's not forget, “crazy” is what I was called when I ranked consensus 2nd rounder AJ Terrell ahead of 4th overall CB Jeff Okudah two years ago. Terrell was All Pro last year in only his 2nd season. Okuda has been a bust and is most famous for the butt chewing he got on the sidelines. 
Crazy is what I was called when I ranked consensus 3rd or 4th receiver Justin Jefferson at the top of my WR rankings, ahead of both Lamb and Jeudy, and had consensus 2nd rounder Tee Higgins ahead of consensus middle 1st round receivers Ruggs and Raeger. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said consensus 2nd rounder Antoine Winfield Jr was the safest player in the draft and ranked him ahead of consensus 1st rounders McKinney and Delpit. AWJ was in the Pro Bowl last year. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said middle 1st round DT Aaron Donald was the best player I’d ever watched and I would take him with the 1st overall pick. “You mean ahead of Jadaveon Clowney?!! You crazy, man.”
In the same draft, I called 8th overall CB Justin Gilbert a bust. Gilbert was out of the NFL in 3 years. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said Laquon Treadwell the most overrated WR I’d ever watched. 
Look, I’m not ready to rank McDuffie ahead of Sauce and Stingley, but as I learn more, he’s trending that way. And he’s NOT small at all. Not sure where that’s coming from. At the combine, he measured 5-11, 193, which is exactly the average NFL height and weight (look it up). Same size as Darelle Revis, by the way. He has short arms. There’s a difference. And if it weren't for the short arms, he might already be my #1. 

Somewhat just giving you a hard time. Sauce just hits everything for me...the tape, the stats, the size, the length, and the speed. I think he's a Ramsey level type of CB

Love Sauce. Stingley too. Just think T-Mac is being underrated by some. THIS is one of the things I like about him. Things like this are often underrated in favor of HWS. HWS is why so many ranked Ruggs, Reagor, Lamb and Jeudy so high. Everyone seemed to gloss over JJ's incredible route running and work ethic. And it's not like he was small...or slow. 

But I'm way late to the game. Just getting started on these guys, and will probably only have time to do QBs and CBs this year. Who knows, I might change my mind completely. I didn't have JJ ranked #1 until a week before the draft. But I don't know anyone else who did. Groupthink is a HUGE problem this time of year. People will almost get angry if you have an opinion that runs counter to conventional wisdom. :-)

I certainly didnt have JJ #1 as I had Ceedee Lamb #1 and Jeudy #2 (JJ was #3 to me). Both Lamb and Jeudy will have very solid careers but JJ sure seems to be off to a HOF career. 

McDuffie may be the outlier but the arm length is something that's hard to ignore, especially when only 5 guys since 2017 have played 400+ snaps as outside corner...the list of players isn't anything write home about. He ran a good 40 and can have all the work ethic in the world, but history tends to repeat itself. He just isn't someone I would take at 12 is where I'm at.

Side note, I took the 2017 stat that was tweeted and went back to look at the 2015 and 2016 measurements and no one there with arms less than 30 inches have been anything in the NFL

[Guest]

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Say whaaaaaaaa? As the great Will Ferrell said... 

Well let's not forget, “crazy” is what I was called when I ranked consensus 2nd rounder AJ Terrell ahead of 4th overall CB Jeff Okudah two years ago. Terrell was All Pro last year in only his 2nd season. Okuda has been a bust and is most famous for the butt chewing he got on the sidelines. 
Crazy is what I was called when I ranked consensus 3rd or 4th receiver Justin Jefferson at the top of my WR rankings, ahead of both Lamb and Jeudy, and had consensus 2nd rounder Tee Higgins ahead of consensus middle 1st round receivers Ruggs and Raeger. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said consensus 2nd rounder Antoine Winfield Jr was the safest player in the draft and ranked him ahead of consensus 1st rounders McKinney and Delpit. AWJ was in the Pro Bowl last year. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said middle 1st round DT Aaron Donald was the best player I’d ever watched and I would take him with the 1st overall pick. “You mean ahead of Jadaveon Clowney?!! You crazy, man.”
In the same draft, I called 8th overall CB Justin Gilbert a bust. Gilbert was out of the NFL in 3 years. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said Laquon Treadwell the most overrated WR I’d ever watched. 
Look, I’m not ready to rank McDuffie ahead of Sauce and Stingley, but as I learn more, he’s trending that way. And he’s NOT small at all. Not sure where that’s coming from. At the combine, he measured 5-11, 193, which is exactly the average NFL height and weight (look it up). Same size as Darelle Revis, by the way. He has short arms. There’s a difference. And if it weren't for the short arms, he might already be my #1. 

Somewhat just giving you a hard time. Sauce just hits everything for me...the tape, the stats, the size, the length, and the speed. I think he's a Ramsey level type of CB

Love Sauce. Stingley too. Just think T-Mac is being underrated by some. THIS is one of the things I like about him. Things like this are often underrated in favor of HWS. HWS is why so many ranked Ruggs, Reagor, Lamb and Jeudy so high. Everyone seemed to gloss over JJ's incredible route running and work ethic. And it's not like he was small...or slow. 

But I'm way late to the game. Just getting started on these guys, and will probably only have time to do QBs and CBs this year. Who knows, I might change my mind completely. I didn't have JJ ranked #1 until a week before the draft. But I don't know anyone else who did. Groupthink is a HUGE problem this time of year. People will almost get angry if you have an opinion that runs counter to conventional wisdom. :-)

I certainly didnt have JJ #1 as I had Ceedee Lamb #1 and Jeudy #2 (JJ was #3 to me). Both Lamb and Jeudy will have very solid careers but JJ sure seems to be off to a HOF career. 

McDuffie may be the outlier but the arm length is something that's hard to ignore, especially when only 5 guys since 2017 have played 400+ snaps as outside corner...the list of players isn't anything write home about. He ran a good 40 and can have all the work ethic in the world, but history tends to repeat itself. He just isn't someone I would take at 12 is where I'm at.

Side note, I took the 2017 stat that was tweeted and went back to look at the 2015 and 2016 measurements and no one there with arms less than 30 inches have been anything in the NFL

Antoine Winfield Sr had arms under 30"

[Guest]

@supafreak84 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story. 

Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either. 

I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions. 

- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst. 

- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.  

- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12. 

As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.

Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12. 

[Guest]

@Skodin said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Say whaaaaaaaa? As the great Will Ferrell said... 

Well let's not forget, “crazy” is what I was called when I ranked consensus 2nd rounder AJ Terrell ahead of 4th overall CB Jeff Okudah two years ago. Terrell was All Pro last year in only his 2nd season. Okuda has been a bust and is most famous for the butt chewing he got on the sidelines. 
Crazy is what I was called when I ranked consensus 3rd or 4th receiver Justin Jefferson at the top of my WR rankings, ahead of both Lamb and Jeudy, and had consensus 2nd rounder Tee Higgins ahead of consensus middle 1st round receivers Ruggs and Raeger. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said consensus 2nd rounder Antoine Winfield Jr was the safest player in the draft and ranked him ahead of consensus 1st rounders McKinney and Delpit. AWJ was in the Pro Bowl last year. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said middle 1st round DT Aaron Donald was the best player I’d ever watched and I would take him with the 1st overall pick. “You mean ahead of Jadaveon Clowney?!! You crazy, man.”
In the same draft, I called 8th overall CB Justin Gilbert a bust. Gilbert was out of the NFL in 3 years. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said Laquon Treadwell the most overrated WR I’d ever watched. 
Look, I’m not ready to rank McDuffie ahead of Sauce and Stingley, but as I learn more, he’s trending that way. And he’s NOT small at all. Not sure where that’s coming from. At the combine, he measured 5-11, 193, which is exactly the average NFL height and weight (look it up). Same size as Darelle Revis, by the way. He has short arms. There’s a difference. And if it weren't for the short arms, he might already be my #1. 

Somewhat just giving you a hard time. Sauce just hits everything for me...the tape, the stats, the size, the length, and the speed. I think he's a Ramsey level type of CB

Love Sauce. Stingley too. Just think T-Mac is being underrated by some. THIS is one of the things I like about him. Things like this are often underrated in favor of HWS. HWS is why so many ranked Ruggs, Reagor, Lamb and Jeudy so high. Everyone seemed to gloss over JJ's incredible route running and work ethic. And it's not like he was small...or slow. 

But I'm way late to the game. Just getting started on these guys, and will probably only have time to do QBs and CBs this year. Who knows, I might change my mind completely. I didn't have JJ ranked #1 until a week before the draft. But I don't know anyone else who did. Groupthink is a HUGE problem this time of year. People will almost get angry if you have an opinion that runs counter to conventional wisdom. :-)

I certainly didnt have JJ #1 as I had Ceedee Lamb #1 and Jeudy #2 (JJ was #3 to me). Both Lamb and Jeudy will have very solid careers but JJ sure seems to be off to a HOF career. 

McDuffie may be the outlier but the arm length is something that's hard to ignore, especially when only 5 guys since 2017 have played 400+ snaps as outside corner...the list of players isn't anything write home about. He ran a good 40 and can have all the work ethic in the world, but history tends to repeat itself. He just isn't someone I would take at 12 is where I'm at.

Side note, I took the 2017 stat that was tweeted and went back to look at the 2015 and 2016 measurements and no one there with arms less than 30 inches have been anything in the NFL

Antoine Winfield Sr had arms under 30"

Safety. The measurement is purely for corners playing on the outside

[Guest]

@Hawkvike25 said:

@Skodin said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Say whaaaaaaaa? As the great Will Ferrell said... 

Well let's not forget, “crazy” is what I was called when I ranked consensus 2nd rounder AJ Terrell ahead of 4th overall CB Jeff Okudah two years ago. Terrell was All Pro last year in only his 2nd season. Okuda has been a bust and is most famous for the butt chewing he got on the sidelines. 
Crazy is what I was called when I ranked consensus 3rd or 4th receiver Justin Jefferson at the top of my WR rankings, ahead of both Lamb and Jeudy, and had consensus 2nd rounder Tee Higgins ahead of consensus middle 1st round receivers Ruggs and Raeger. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said consensus 2nd rounder Antoine Winfield Jr was the safest player in the draft and ranked him ahead of consensus 1st rounders McKinney and Delpit. AWJ was in the Pro Bowl last year. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said middle 1st round DT Aaron Donald was the best player I’d ever watched and I would take him with the 1st overall pick. “You mean ahead of Jadaveon Clowney?!! You crazy, man.”
In the same draft, I called 8th overall CB Justin Gilbert a bust. Gilbert was out of the NFL in 3 years. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said Laquon Treadwell the most overrated WR I’d ever watched. 
Look, I’m not ready to rank McDuffie ahead of Sauce and Stingley, but as I learn more, he’s trending that way. And he’s NOT small at all. Not sure where that’s coming from. At the combine, he measured 5-11, 193, which is exactly the average NFL height and weight (look it up). Same size as Darelle Revis, by the way. He has short arms. There’s a difference. And if it weren't for the short arms, he might already be my #1. 

Somewhat just giving you a hard time. Sauce just hits everything for me...the tape, the stats, the size, the length, and the speed. I think he's a Ramsey level type of CB

Love Sauce. Stingley too. Just think T-Mac is being underrated by some. THIS is one of the things I like about him. Things like this are often underrated in favor of HWS. HWS is why so many ranked Ruggs, Reagor, Lamb and Jeudy so high. Everyone seemed to gloss over JJ's incredible route running and work ethic. And it's not like he was small...or slow. 

But I'm way late to the game. Just getting started on these guys, and will probably only have time to do QBs and CBs this year. Who knows, I might change my mind completely. I didn't have JJ ranked #1 until a week before the draft. But I don't know anyone else who did. Groupthink is a HUGE problem this time of year. People will almost get angry if you have an opinion that runs counter to conventional wisdom. :-)

I certainly didnt have JJ #1 as I had Ceedee Lamb #1 and Jeudy #2 (JJ was #3 to me). Both Lamb and Jeudy will have very solid careers but JJ sure seems to be off to a HOF career. 

McDuffie may be the outlier but the arm length is something that's hard to ignore, especially when only 5 guys since 2017 have played 400+ snaps as outside corner...the list of players isn't anything write home about. He ran a good 40 and can have all the work ethic in the world, but history tends to repeat itself. He just isn't someone I would take at 12 is where I'm at.

Side note, I took the 2017 stat that was tweeted and went back to look at the 2015 and 2016 measurements and no one there with arms less than 30 inches have been anything in the NFL

Antoine Winfield Sr had arms under 30"

Safety. The measurement is purely for corners playing on the outside

Sr was always a CB if I recall…

[Guest]

@Kentis said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@Skodin said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@Hawkvike25 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Say whaaaaaaaa? As the great Will Ferrell said... 

Well let's not forget, “crazy” is what I was called when I ranked consensus 2nd rounder AJ Terrell ahead of 4th overall CB Jeff Okudah two years ago. Terrell was All Pro last year in only his 2nd season. Okuda has been a bust and is most famous for the butt chewing he got on the sidelines. 
Crazy is what I was called when I ranked consensus 3rd or 4th receiver Justin Jefferson at the top of my WR rankings, ahead of both Lamb and Jeudy, and had consensus 2nd rounder Tee Higgins ahead of consensus middle 1st round receivers Ruggs and Raeger. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said consensus 2nd rounder Antoine Winfield Jr was the safest player in the draft and ranked him ahead of consensus 1st rounders McKinney and Delpit. AWJ was in the Pro Bowl last year. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said middle 1st round DT Aaron Donald was the best player I’d ever watched and I would take him with the 1st overall pick. “You mean ahead of Jadaveon Clowney?!! You crazy, man.”
In the same draft, I called 8th overall CB Justin Gilbert a bust. Gilbert was out of the NFL in 3 years. 
Crazy is what I was called when I said Laquon Treadwell the most overrated WR I’d ever watched. 
Look, I’m not ready to rank McDuffie ahead of Sauce and Stingley, but as I learn more, he’s trending that way. And he’s NOT small at all. Not sure where that’s coming from. At the combine, he measured 5-11, 193, which is exactly the average NFL height and weight (look it up). Same size as Darelle Revis, by the way. He has short arms. There’s a difference. And if it weren't for the short arms, he might already be my #1. 

Somewhat just giving you a hard time. Sauce just hits everything for me...the tape, the stats, the size, the length, and the speed. I think he's a Ramsey level type of CB

Love Sauce. Stingley too. Just think T-Mac is being underrated by some. THIS is one of the things I like about him. Things like this are often underrated in favor of HWS. HWS is why so many ranked Ruggs, Reagor, Lamb and Jeudy so high. Everyone seemed to gloss over JJ's incredible route running and work ethic. And it's not like he was small...or slow. 

But I'm way late to the game. Just getting started on these guys, and will probably only have time to do QBs and CBs this year. Who knows, I might change my mind completely. I didn't have JJ ranked #1 until a week before the draft. But I don't know anyone else who did. Groupthink is a HUGE problem this time of year. People will almost get angry if you have an opinion that runs counter to conventional wisdom. :-)

I certainly didnt have JJ #1 as I had Ceedee Lamb #1 and Jeudy #2 (JJ was #3 to me). Both Lamb and Jeudy will have very solid careers but JJ sure seems to be off to a HOF career. 

McDuffie may be the outlier but the arm length is something that's hard to ignore, especially when only 5 guys since 2017 have played 400+ snaps as outside corner...the list of players isn't anything write home about. He ran a good 40 and can have all the work ethic in the world, but history tends to repeat itself. He just isn't someone I would take at 12 is where I'm at.

Side note, I took the 2017 stat that was tweeted and went back to look at the 2015 and 2016 measurements and no one there with arms less than 30 inches have been anything in the NFL

Antoine Winfield Sr had arms under 30"

Safety. The measurement is purely for corners playing on the outside

Sr was always a CB if I recall…

My bad, I thought he was saying Jr who just came out and had shorter arms, although I dont know if he was under 30". I could only find measurements for all corners going back to 2015 so not sure on Winfield Sr. Either way, not a lot of good corners in the last 7 years with short arms

[Guest]

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@supafreak84 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story. 

Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either. 

I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions. 

- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst. 

- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.  

- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12. 

As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.

Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12. 

I don't know, I think Sauce and Stingley are both special talents at the position. McDuffie looks like Desmond Trufant to me and I wouldn't take him at #12. I like Kyler Gordon, Woolen, McCreary, and some of these other guys just as much from a talent perspective. Woolen is intriguing as hell to me.

[Guest]

@"Geoff Nichols" said:

@supafreak84 said:

@MaroonBells said:

@supafreak84 said:
From Florida's Pro Day today;

"Meanwhile, 28 teams had reps at the Florida pro day where rising CB Kaiir Elam, who ran under 4.4 seconds at the combine, added to his resume with a 37.5-inch vertical and a short shuttle time of 4.21 seconds."

I've said it before, but if I can't get Stingley or Sauce at #12...I'm taking another premium player at a different position and going to look at CB later on. Elam is part of that late first to second round mix that I like at the cornerback position. No need to hit the panic button and take McDuffie at that point just because we need a corner. 

McDuffie is no panic pick. In fact, while I haven't decided yet, I may actually rank him as the top CB in the draft. 

Well that would be interesting. I just wouldn't take a guy with is 5'10" and change with shorter then ideal arms with an early first round pick when I can get a similarly talented player later on in the draft. Like Guru, I just don't see the huge talent difference between McDuffie and some of these second and third round cornerback prospects. Sauce and Stingley...different story. 

Maybe a little out of context. There is a difference in talent but we're talking about a difference in pick #12 and a pick in the 40s-50s. There is a difference. Elam also won't last that long into the 2nd either. 

I've watched plenty of the CB class to come to a few conclusions. 

- Sauce is the "safest" CB in the draft. He's sticky and has the size/length to be very disruptive on the perimeter. But reality is his highest upside isn't going to be chasing a #1 receive around the field its going to be in a Cover-3/4 system where we can work down the field and let the in-breaking stuff go. The floor is pretty high but he may end up being a system corner at worst. 

- Stingley is by far the most talented CB in the draft. His 2019 film is arguably the best I've ever watched for a CB. The foot injury scares me more than the tape in 2020/21, mainly because a lot of the drop-off in his film was due to the impossibility of improving on 2019. He struggled at time vs. Devonte Smith but if he puts it together he is a top 5 CB who can do everything within 2 years. I also think the floor is higher than most believe. Even if he isn't 2019 Stingley he still is a very high-end CB2. So little flame-out risk in my opinion.  

- McDuffie is not a slouch. His "size" concern(s) is solely the arm length. The height/weight will play. I think the question you need to ask with McDuffie, is how will you play him? If you want him in press man 70% of the game, he isn't your guy. If you will let him play off and want him to sit in zone, well then you have a lot of value on your hands. Point is if you watch how the Bears (Fangio system) used Kyle Fuller... there is a lot of similarities in their play styles. Value wise he fits the Vikings and what they want to do at #12. 

As you can see there isn't a large gap between either of these 3. Arguably you could say that about the next 3-4 guys as well.

Where I personally draw the line today is I'd considering Sauce a shoe-in, run to the podium pick if he made it to #12. I would likely take Stingley regardless of what was left on the board if the health checked out. McDuffie, I would considering a select few other players. Mainly Jermaine Johnson or another blue-chip EDGE or Hamilton. If neither of those guys are there I would take him right at #12. 

Very good breakdown. I agree with pretty much everything here....except the floors. I would call McDuffie the safest of them...and the highest floor. He may not have the upside of Sauce or Stingley, but I think he has the highest floor. 

Not that Stingley and Sauce have ANYTHING in common with the corners in 2020, but I keep thinking of that class when Okudah and Henderson were consensus top 10 corners. Okudah went #3 overall. Henderson #9. Both have been awful.