Quote: @Havoc1649 said:
We have watched Cousins constantly take the team downfield when it mattered. At the same time, we’ve seen missed kicks and often a defense giving up the game after he’s driven down in the last two minutes to go ahead. We have all witnessed the Zimmer patented soft zone that guarantees to other team moves the ball with ease towards the end of the game. Lastly, Cousins very rarely gives up a turnover in the last two minutes.
People who dislike him conveniently ignore these contributing factors that are completely outside of his control. He can’t play the defense or be the coach making the calls as well. He can only do his part of the job. I read a lot of spurious conclusions in regards to Cousins performances and this is but one of the many. We can add the false belief that Cousins is padding stats. That’s complete nonsense. We are rarely in a position for him to do that. On top of that, we’ve had a coach that goes the opposite way with even the smallest of leads. Zimmer might be the most conservative coach I’ve ever seen with a lead.
Overall, much of the complaints on Cousins are not rational. So we see the same absurd regurgitation of things like W/L having anything to do with the capability of a QB. People don’t like Cousins because of his contract, his personality or play style. Perhaps, make those your reasons for wanting something else, instead of clinging to irrational conclusions.
Everything you said is true but you’re also “ignoring” how Kirk was dreadful in a couple games this year and last year too. Browns and Dallas games were almost Mannion-bad. At home.
I understand every QB has bad games and only a couple in 17 is something we should probably live with. But then you factor in those couple games is the difference between making the playoffs the past 2 seasons and not, can you understand why some fans get frustrated?
The defense stunk. That’s by far the bigger problem. But as I’ve said before, that doesn’t by default mean Kirk is the answer. Not knowing if we’re getting Jekyll or Hyde each week is taxing for the fans, I can’t imagine how it must be for the players.
Throw on certain comments from current and former players, coaches, and GMs and there’s more than enough evidence as to why he’ll be great for the Vikings, or he might sandbag the Vikings. Both sides have merit. It’s a very tough decision for the new FO.
If it were as cut and dry as some here want to make it seem then he’d probably already have been extended.
Quote: @minny65 said:
Differing opinions, different takes, and differing ways to get us to a SB competitive team exist and can be as valid as the group think of the most consistent and repetitive posters.
For example: I can understand why the posters who want to extend Kirk. They think he is good enough to get us to the promised land and make us playoff caliber for the next few years. I don't want to try and speak for them but most of their thought process is stat based (he is clearly a Top 8-10 QB consistently) and the thought that we have a good enough base of players with a couple tweaks and better coaching to surround Kirk and shift those stats into "team" wins.
I am in the other group. The group who are labeled irrational, don't know football, can't interpret stats as well, don't watch football, etc.... all because we don't see things the way they want us too. These posters then group up and chide with the labels.
I noticed most of the same posters who supported Zimmer a few years longer because they know stats, they know football, and are rational. Now that he is gone they are quick to throw him under the bus and blame him for all that went wrong. Zimmer bad...Kirk good.
Also, they are so much smarter then us that they know that drafting a QB who could become a good starting NFL QB is very low and not worth the risk vs reward of maybe finding a franchise QB on a cheap contract to build around. They wish we could understand that this is the only way! No, FA guys like Kirk, Bradford etc are clearly the better approach just because that is what we have done with awesome results for the majority of this teams history.
Lastly, I wonder what their reaction will be in a few years if we extend Kirk and the results are the same as we have seen with his first 4 years here and 4 with Washington. Then maybe they will have seen enough like several us now have seen enough naively of course.
I also wonder what they will think if the new regime trades him. Will it be because the new regime is irrational, can't interpret stats, don't know football or will it automatically switch their banter and chiding and come to an epiphany that Kirk was not the answer....yikes!
My point: Let's allow differing opinions without pretending it is beyond your comprehension as to why someone has a differing opinion. Not everyone thinks the same and it doesn't make them less of a fan or just stupid.
I agree. No opposing opinions tolerated by the prolific posters, who tend to gang up get personal with certain posters. It happens on all these forums. But we are all after the same thing. We just have differing opinions how to get there.
NJVike got banned for his style of posting. Rightfully so. But his premise turned out to be correct.
Quote: @jargomcfargo said:
@ minny65 said:
Differing opinions, different takes, and differing ways to get us to a SB competitive team exist and can be as valid as the group think of the most consistent and repetitive posters.
For example: I can understand why the posters who want to extend Kirk. They think he is good enough to get us to the promised land and make us playoff caliber for the next few years. I don't want to try and speak for them but most of their thought process is stat based (he is clearly a Top 8-10 QB consistently) and the thought that we have a good enough base of players with a couple tweaks and better coaching to surround Kirk and shift those stats into "team" wins.
I am in the other group. The group who are labeled irrational, don't know football, can't interpret stats as well, don't watch football, etc.... all because we don't see things the way they want us too. These posters then group up and chide with the labels.
I noticed most of the same posters who supported Zimmer a few years longer because they know stats, they know football, and are rational. Now that he is gone they are quick to throw him under the bus and blame him for all that went wrong. Zimmer bad...Kirk good.
Also, they are so much smarter then us that they know that drafting a QB who could become a good starting NFL QB is very low and not worth the risk vs reward of maybe finding a franchise QB on a cheap contract to build around. They wish we could understand that this is the only way! No, FA guys like Kirk, Bradford etc are clearly the better approach just because that is what we have done with awesome results for the majority of this teams history.
Lastly, I wonder what their reaction will be in a few years if we extend Kirk and the results are the same as we have seen with his first 4 years here and 4 with Washington. Then maybe they will have seen enough like several us now have seen enough naively of course.
I also wonder what they will think if the new regime trades him. Will it be because the new regime is irrational, can't interpret stats, don't know football or will it automatically switch their banter and chiding and come to an epiphany that Kirk was not the answer....yikes!
My point: Let's allow differing opinions without pretending it is beyond your comprehension as to why someone has a differing opinion. Not everyone thinks the same and it doesn't make them less of a fan or just stupid.
I agree. No opposing opinions tolerated by the prolific posters, who tend to gang up get personal with certain posters. It happens on all these forums. But we are all after the same thing. We just have differing opinions how to get there.
NJVike got banned for his style of posting. Rightfully so. But his premise turned out to be correct.
Oh jeez, disregard my post if I am aligned with NJVike 
I don’t like Cousins because of his contract, his personality or play style. I lost track, does that make me group 4…!?  B) :p
Quote: @Kentis said:
I don’t like Cousins because of his contract, his personality or play style. I lost track, does that make me group 4…!? B) :p
Not sure, but looking at your list I think we're in the same one.
Quote: @Kentis said:
I don’t like Cousins because of his contract, his personality or play style. I lost track, does that make me group 4…!? B) :p
No your category is:
Group 2
subgroup 4
Or G2s4
I don't have any idea why posters can't figure out their grouping?
Stupidity? Willful ignorance? This site is getting boring to me
Quote: ![[Image: 31sx21nuwe0y.jpeg]](https://vikefans.com/vfforums/uploads/editor/4i/31sx21nuwe0y.jpeg) @minny65 said:
@ Kentis said:
I don’t like Cousins because of his contract, his personality or play style. I lost track, does that make me group 4…!? B) :p
No your category is:
Group 2
subgroup 4
Or G2s4
I don't have any idea why posters can't figure out their grouping?
Stupidity? Willful ignorance? This site is getting boring to me
Said the Grouper… :p
Quote: @jargomcfargo said:
@ minny65 said:
Differing opinions, different takes, and differing ways to get us to a SB competitive team exist and can be as valid as the group think of the most consistent and repetitive posters.
For example: I can understand why the posters who want to extend Kirk. They think he is good enough to get us to the promised land and make us playoff caliber for the next few years. I don't want to try and speak for them but most of their thought process is stat based (he is clearly a Top 8-10 QB consistently) and the thought that we have a good enough base of players with a couple tweaks and better coaching to surround Kirk and shift those stats into "team" wins.
I am in the other group. The group who are labeled irrational, don't know football, can't interpret stats as well, don't watch football, etc.... all because we don't see things the way they want us too. These posters then group up and chide with the labels.
I noticed most of the same posters who supported Zimmer a few years longer because they know stats, they know football, and are rational. Now that he is gone they are quick to throw him under the bus and blame him for all that went wrong. Zimmer bad...Kirk good.
Also, they are so much smarter then us that they know that drafting a QB who could become a good starting NFL QB is very low and not worth the risk vs reward of maybe finding a franchise QB on a cheap contract to build around. They wish we could understand that this is the only way! No, FA guys like Kirk, Bradford etc are clearly the better approach just because that is what we have done with awesome results for the majority of this teams history.
Lastly, I wonder what their reaction will be in a few years if we extend Kirk and the results are the same as we have seen with his first 4 years here and 4 with Washington. Then maybe they will have seen enough like several us now have seen enough naively of course.
I also wonder what they will think if the new regime trades him. Will it be because the new regime is irrational, can't interpret stats, don't know football or will it automatically switch their banter and chiding and come to an epiphany that Kirk was not the answer....yikes!
My point: Let's allow differing opinions without pretending it is beyond your comprehension as to why someone has a differing opinion. Not everyone thinks the same and it doesn't make them less of a fan or just stupid.
I agree. No opposing opinions tolerated by the prolific posters, who tend to gang up get personal with certain posters. It happens on all these forums. But we are all after the same thing. We just have differing opinions how to get there.
NJVike got banned for his style of posting. Rightfully so. But his premise turned out to be correct.
NJ was always irrational. Heck if I start railing on Kwesi right now, theres better odds that he will be fired within 15 years than he will be THE ONE. that doesnt make my argument valid or rational.
Quote: @Bullazin said:
@ jargomcfargo said:
@ minny65 said:
Differing opinions, different takes, and differing ways to get us to a SB competitive team exist and can be as valid as the group think of the most consistent and repetitive posters.
For example: I can understand why the posters who want to extend Kirk. They think he is good enough to get us to the promised land and make us playoff caliber for the next few years. I don't want to try and speak for them but most of their thought process is stat based (he is clearly a Top 8-10 QB consistently) and the thought that we have a good enough base of players with a couple tweaks and better coaching to surround Kirk and shift those stats into "team" wins.
I am in the other group. The group who are labeled irrational, don't know football, can't interpret stats as well, don't watch football, etc.... all because we don't see things the way they want us too. These posters then group up and chide with the labels.
I noticed most of the same posters who supported Zimmer a few years longer because they know stats, they know football, and are rational. Now that he is gone they are quick to throw him under the bus and blame him for all that went wrong. Zimmer bad...Kirk good.
Also, they are so much smarter then us that they know that drafting a QB who could become a good starting NFL QB is very low and not worth the risk vs reward of maybe finding a franchise QB on a cheap contract to build around. They wish we could understand that this is the only way! No, FA guys like Kirk, Bradford etc are clearly the better approach just because that is what we have done with awesome results for the majority of this teams history.
Lastly, I wonder what their reaction will be in a few years if we extend Kirk and the results are the same as we have seen with his first 4 years here and 4 with Washington. Then maybe they will have seen enough like several us now have seen enough naively of course.
I also wonder what they will think if the new regime trades him. Will it be because the new regime is irrational, can't interpret stats, don't know football or will it automatically switch their banter and chiding and come to an epiphany that Kirk was not the answer....yikes!
My point: Let's allow differing opinions without pretending it is beyond your comprehension as to why someone has a differing opinion. Not everyone thinks the same and it doesn't make them less of a fan or just stupid.
I agree. No opposing opinions tolerated by the prolific posters, who tend to gang up get personal with certain posters. It happens on all these forums. But we are all after the same thing. We just have differing opinions how to get there.
NJVike got banned for his style of posting. Rightfully so. But his premise turned out to be correct.
NJ was always irrational. Heck if I start railing on Kwesi right now, theres better odds that he will be fired within 15 years than he will be THE ONE. that doesnt make my argument valid or rational.
The premise that Spielman wouldn't bring a Lombardi to the Vikings was true. Sure, you could make that statement about Kwesi now and the odds are it will be true. I hope not. But did you make that statement about Spielman? Do you wish to make that statement about Kwesi?
Point is, and I shouldn't have used NJVike as my example, but every once in a while, the masses are wrong.
minny65 presented a very good post. Guess I should have read it and moved on!
Quote: @minny65 said:
Differing opinions, different takes, and differing ways to get us to a SB competitive team exist and can be as valid as the group think of the most consistent and repetitive posters.
For example: I can understand why the posters who want to extend Kirk. They think he is good enough to get us to the promised land and make us playoff caliber for the next few years. I don't want to try and speak for them but most of their thought process is stat based (he is clearly a Top 8-10 QB consistently) and the thought that we have a good enough base of players with a couple tweaks and better coaching to surround Kirk and shift those stats into "team" wins.
I am in the other group. The group who are labeled irrational, don't know football, can't interpret stats as well, don't watch football, etc.... all because we don't see things the way they want us too. These posters then group up and chide with the labels.
I noticed most of the same posters who supported Zimmer a few years longer because they know stats, they know football, and are rational. Now that he is gone they are quick to throw him under the bus and blame him for all that went wrong. Zimmer bad...Kirk good.
Also, they are so much smarter then us that they know that drafting a QB who could become a good starting NFL QB is very low and not worth the risk vs reward of maybe finding a franchise QB on a cheap contract to build around. They wish we could understand that this is the only way! No, FA guys like Kirk, Bradford etc are clearly the better approach just because that is what we have done with awesome results for the majority of this teams history.
Lastly, I wonder what their reaction will be in a few years if we extend Kirk and the results are the same as we have seen with his first 4 years here and 4 with Washington. Then maybe they will have seen enough like several us now have seen enough naively of course.
I also wonder what they will think if the new regime trades him. Will it be because the new regime is irrational, can't interpret stats, don't know football or will it automatically switch their banter and chiding and come to an epiphany that Kirk was not the answer....yikes!
My point: Let's allow differing opinions without pretending it is beyond your comprehension as to why someone has a differing opinion. Not everyone thinks the same and it doesn't make them less of a fan or just stupid.
What I would like to see are rational arguments. Even saying you don’t like the guy is rational. Saying his W/L record is somehow relevant is not. Not when we all watch him move the ball up and down the field when it matters, only to see the defense or a kicker blow it. The stats exist for a reason. A QB rating exists for a reason. The very purpose is to differentiate performance with a reasonable separation from the team. It’s been the official formula used by the NFL since 1973 to determine its passing leaders.
The flip side goes for the passer rating for a defense. A measure of how a defense performed. This is because a team that can produce good performance from these two areas historically produce wins at the highest rate and are competitive for a championship.
Ratings for QB’s have gone up in the past 10-15 years due to changes in the game and QB’s and likely coaching simply getting better. Currently, Cousins is #7 all time. Does that mean Cousins will win a title? No. Does it mean he has an exceptional chance if he can be on a team with a good defense - absolutely. Statistically, his performances each year paired with a good defense will stand an excellent chance of winning. Without this, the odds are small and get smaller the poorer the defensive performance. He is in the same boat as Matthew Stafford was for an even longer period of time. He’s in the same boat Rodgers has been in for many seasons. There has to be balance no matter who is behind center.
My point is, argue your gut, argue a feeling, argue his price tag, argue his flaws. Don't continue to try to argue stats don’t matter. They demonstrably do and have going back decades.
A team must have a high performing QB to be competitive. Without one, you will not win a championship. The odds are exceptionally low. That’s why a team like the Colts have been swinging for one for going on 6 years now. It’s a must have. If you give that away, there needs to be some rationale or logic involved.
“I think we are better off moving from Cousins to get rid of his large contract and then pursuing Jimmy G.” - there may be push back for this opinion due to the weaknesses Jimmy has, but it’s at least rational. It’s a real argument.
Or, “we have the defense, but our QB just isn’t good enough or elite enough to get us there”.
“I think he’s a weirdo.”
“Just because” which is the vast majority of what I read on here, is usually wrapped in an irrelevant or spurious argument. It doesn’t actually say anything. No one should be surprised if readers would like a little more specificity when essentially none is given. People like a thought process presented or even an opinion that isn’t predicated on something that isn’t true.
For instance, one I see often, “Cousins just pads stats at the end of a game”. We all know this isn’t true. We are never in games where that’s even a possibility. The few times we do get a lead, we go conservative run the ball up the middle until stopped. Yet I see this obviously false claim often used to justify getting rid of him. That’s what I’m tired of. The use of irrelevant or untruthful claims to justify an “opinion”. Simply saying “I think he’s a dink” is more impactful than making things up.
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